I don't think my list is outdated at all. I've played with and without Shaman and I don't think it's good. When I first came back to Elves last year, I played a Shaman against the advice of Andrew Cuneo (Who's stream formed the bulk of my preparation) because it was good for me in the old Pact lists I played in 2011. Simply put, it was awful. Natural Order gives the deck such a powerful angle that you can fully focus on your own game pre-sideboard, and Pridemage is much better than Shaman after board because it kills Jitte at instant speed. The cost of running a Savannah over the 2nd basic is significant, but I think it's worth it. There are some fringe matchups where Shaman is excellent, but none of those decks are good so I'm not going to metagame for them.
On maindeck Ooze: I've seen a ton of Delver recently, and within the spectrum, UWR (The only Delver variant where I don't bring in Ooze) is falling in popularity, so I think this is very reasonable. I will heavily consider 1 main in future lists, over the 4th Heritage Druid.
On 10 Fetches/1 Basic: Feeding DRS is very important on the early turns, and having more fetches gives more virtual copies of Dryad Arbor. The mana elves provide a built-in resilience to Blood Moon/Back to Basics. That being said, I think the ideal list has a 2nd basic, and 9/2 is a fine split. I prefer having reliable mana acceleration.
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
Ross I just realized you quoted me in your sig. Excellent!
Also, something Elves! related... Thoughts on Reclamation Sage?
Team Hammafist
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
I personally think Sage is excellent.
Tempted to sleeve up Elves for the chance of "getting him". But I think I would prefer to troll the store today.
I think Ross and Riley Curran already got him :P
Id have to imagine that anyone running Viridian Shaman will be making the switch to Reclamation Sage, but on that note @ Ross I would like to know if anything changes when it comes to mage vs sage (Pridemage vs Reclamation Sage). I'm going to guess that it won't, but just curious.
To theross
Can u tell us more about your sb. How do u sb against deckstobeat? When and why WSW/pro?(i like it, with 2 fattys...)
After having a good run with Storm (both Tes and Ant) ,canadian ******** and other tempobased decks,it's time to storm again: this time with creatures :D
The primer is very well written,thx alot.
From my perspective (as a new elves-player),there are a few questions concerning the deck in general:
- what about 3-4 birchlore rangers?they seem really explosive on turn 2.in my few test games it was not always possible to assemble 3 elves for heritage druid so birchlore rangers were kinda better.
(You also board them out very often i see)
What would you cut if you increase birchlore rangers to 3 or 4 copies?
- i would run gitaxian probes immediately :D
It's a supersweet card,lets you know if your opponent has any mass removal so you can adjust your play.Playing 56 cards in a combodeck is always good
and after sideboard they are superawesome with cabal therapy (you see i normally play storm :D )
High 5,kai thiele
Hi,
Played in the SCG Providence Legacy Open this past Sunday. Have a few questions, but wanted to tell you about my (heartbreaking, but awesome) day.
Decklist:
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Gaea's Cradle
2 x Bayou
1 x Taiga
2 x Forest
2 x Dryad Arbor
2 x Craterhoof Behemoth
1 x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 x Viridian Shaman
1 x Birchlore Rangers
1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Elvish Mystic
3 x Heritage Druid
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Quirion Ranger
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Wirewood Symbiote
3 x Natural Order
4 x Glimpse of Nature
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard:
4 x Thoughtseize
2 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Abrupt Decay
2 x Pithing Needle
1 x Choke
1 x Natural Order
1 x Progenitus
1 x Scavenging Ooze
I had been testing with Ruric Main and he was great for me, which is why I had it in there main deck. I kept debating main deck scooze, but in the end just kept it in the sideboard. Was excited to play in the Open, as this would be only my second tournament playing with this deck. Had been testing and playing with it over the past year or so.
Round 1 - Miracles.
Game 1 - I've never tested against Miracles, so when he turn 1 drops Sensei's Divining Top and turn 2 Counterbalance, my heart pretty much sinks.
I have his life totals recorded at 20, 19, 18, 16, 12, 11, 9, 8, 5, 1, and me winning game 1 with resolved Nettle Sentinels, Deathrite Shamans, and bouncing them back and getting lucky through the game. I'm pretty pumped to start the day this way.
Game 2 - I get him down to 10 with random elves, but he eventually seals the deal with Vendilion Clique and Jace, I think.
Game 3 - I get him down to 15 before he starts getting everything into place. I have 3 elves on board and a dryad arbor and a cradle. Top deck Natural Order. Just go for it. I had abrupt decayed his counterbalance, but he still has a top. Activates it, digging. Brainstorms. I'm crossing everything from my fingers, arms, to legs, waiting for this to resolve. We're at about 2 minutes left in the round at this point, too. Longest time awaiting resolution of a Natural Order ever. He fetches and shuffles. Then taps the top to draw. Looks at his hand. Natural Order Resolves. Hoof for 24. I did it. I beat Miracles to start the day! So pumped. He was a good sport and I am pumped how lucky I got. 1-0
Round 2 - Death and Taxes.
I think the Guardians of Gaea rewarded me for beating Miracles in Round 1 and gave me 2 easy games in Round 2 against a newbie DnT player.
Hoof for the win Game 1.
Hoof for the win Game 2. Now I'm 2-0
Round 3 - BUG Delver.
Game 1 - Glimpse chain with him at 20 life. No Force of Will. Hoof for 40+.
Game 2 - I get him down to 16, but he stablizes and has Goyfs and Delvers flipped and plenty of Counters, Abrupt Decays...
Game 3 - Get him down to 11. He has me at 9 with some Goyfs. Glimpse chain with a dozen people watching because it's almost time for the round. Hoof in for 10. Get him to 1. Use Wirewood Symbiote to untap DrS and drain him for the win. So pumped. 3-0
Round 4 - BUG Delver. I can handle this.
Game 1 - 2 Goyfs, 2 Abrupt Decays, Force of Wills, Brainstorms. Can't get him lower than 17 life.
Game 2 - Get him to 8, I'm at 10. Natural Order for Hoof gets me there.
Game 3 - I get him to only 19 life and he just eats my hand with Hymn to Tourach after Hymn to Tourach after DrS after DrS and Goyf.
I can't do anything about it. It sucks. Now 3-1.
Round 5 - Dark Maverick.
Game 1 - Active Jitte and 2 Deathrite Shamans and he keeps draining me and removing all my guys. Kinda sucks.
Game 2 - Get him with a Hoof for 32 damage.
Game 3 - This was the most intense magic I've played, even after Miracles. I get him to 15 life after attacking back and forth. I'm at 15.
Board state is he's tapped out, Engineered Plague, Knight of the Reliquary with 3 or 4 lands in gy. I abrupt decay his Engineered Plague, but really struggle because I wanted to take the Knight. I was just hoping to keep chump blocking until I could Natural Order or something. I don't know. He plays a Mother of Runes next turn and a Stoneforge Mystic. Eventually brings in a Batterskull. It's pretty bad, but I'm able to Natural Order with a DrS, a Nettle, a Dryad Arbor, and a Wirewood Symbiote on board, I think.
I debate getting a Viridian Shaman to take the Batterskull, but just get hoof and hope he scoops, cuz I don't think I can win it. I get him to 5 after all is said and done and he eventually just gets in next turn. Heartbreaking. Would you guys have taken the Engineered Plague or the Knight? I really couldn't anticipate all of his top decks and was really unsure about the line of play. It was a matchup full of "what if I did this instead?" Now 3-2
Round 6 - Artifact/Tezzeret
Game 1 - He scoops after I get a Glimpse chain into Hoof, even with a bunch of stuff on his side. Feels good.
Game 2 - Gets Chalice, Baleful Strix, Tezzeret Ultimate. I didn't stand a chance.
Game 3 - Multiple Chalices on 1. I love Viridian Shaman and Wirewood Symbiote in this matchup. Abrupt Decay, too.
Hoof for a lot to win. I'm back in this. 4-2
Round 7 - UR Delver.
Game 1 - He gets plenty of bolts and Goblin guides, but no delvers. I get NO for Hoof and win.
Game 2 - He gets me down to 2 with plenty of counterspells and bolts for all my creatures. Has me at 2 and top decks a bolt.
Game 3 - I need to win this to keep going or even stand the slightest chance (even if it's just to make my money back).
Super tense matchup, plenty of forces, a flipped Delver, gets me down to 9. I get him to 11 and have a thoughtseize, but land a Choke when he's tapped out after casting a TNN. I go for a Natural Order but he has a Force. I'm dumb. Why I didn't use the Thoughtseize is beyond me. Good thing I top deck another one and Hoof him for the win with no cards in his hand, no untapped lands, and my life at 6. Yes! 5-2.
I now have to win these last 2 rounds. I pray for good matchups.
Round 8 - Esper Deathblade against Alex Bertocini.
Game 1 - Jitte, Batterskull, Brainstorms, my life ticks down 20, 19, 18, 17, 14, 11. I draw land after land after land after land and get V. Clique'd when I draw a useless glimpse. Gets replaced by another land. Sucks.
Game 2 - Zealous Persecution, Active Jitte. I am able to somewhat come back with Abrupt Decay and Natural Order for Progenitus. I'm at 9. He still needs 3 turns. I figure this is my game. Goes to him. Council's Judgement. Are you serious? He asks the judges, who are all now watching us because it's such a blowout matchup or something, if he can take a picture of the boardstate because he's so excited about casting that card against our Legendary Hydra. I just laugh and say, "There's a first time for everything, I guess." Extend the hand and say, "Good playing." I'm pretty heartbroken after starting the day so well.
I just play out the last round even though I wanted to drop. What a mistake. My soul gets crushed even more.
Round 9 - Reanimator.
Game 1 - Turn 1 Dark Ritual, Thoughtseizes me, sees I'm on Elves, takes my Glimpse, Cabal Therapy himself for Elesh Norn, then Reanimates it. Welp, that was a good game.
Game 2 - I bring in Scavenging Ooze and some Discard. Have a good opening hand. Start it off with Deathrite Shaman. This should be OK for me. He plays land and passes. I start getting stuff onto the board and hope to GSZ into Scooze. He abrupt decays my DrS and Entombs an Ashen Rider. Just keeps getting him back and killing whatever I play and using discard on me. I can't do anything. It's bad. Another loss to end the day.
I had a great day, considering it was my first real big tourney since last November's open. I played my best, though I am unsure of a few plays like the Dark Maverick match. I think I will be taking out Ruric Thar, and main-decking Scavenging Ooze, taking out the Taiga, adding another basic Forest or Fetch, and adding in Meekstone or Sylvan Library or Worldspine Wurm to the sideboard.
Council's Judgement sucks. It felt worse than someone landing a Liliana of the Veil after I get Progenitus onto the field. Oh well.
Just want to also thank everyone who has put together the primer here, is active in this forum, etc. It's helped me so much to be a better Elves Player over the past half year or so. Here's hoping I do better at the Worcester Legacy Open next month.
Also, to the above poster, Worldspine Wurm comes in against things like Show and Tell or anything that doesn't play Swords to Plowshares. Progenitus comes in usually against Death and Taxes.
Dood, I've put the 4 Birchlore build into discussion during Fall 2013 and it is indeed explosive. The general problem of the deck atm is that a lot of cards like Nettle, Heritage, Llanowar Elves or Birchlores have very low impact on the gamestate themselves but only feed other cards like NO, GSZ or Glimpse. Topdecking those manaelves instead of business at some points of the game is miserable. The trend goes towards reducing the manaelves in general as you might have noticed as lists started to run only 3 Nettle/Heritage in addition to the habit of having those as boarding slots.
Probe is not run because you don't have much value from the information gained and it interrupts your Glimpse draws.
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Yup. A creature getting countered mid-Glimpse chain -> You still get to draw card(s) and your Nettle Sentinels still untap. Probe getting countered -> No card for you and your Nettle Sentinels don't untap just yet. Besides, a random creature can net you >1 card during chains where a Probe will always get you exactly one when it resolves.
I would love to run 4 Probes for the reason you mentioned, Kai. The problem comes with finding any slots for them. People often mention the "56 cards" aspect. In fact, running a deck with 4 Probes and 56 other cards is more random than running 60 cards without Probe. I would definitely love to have the added value on knowing what kind of game my opponent is trying to play, but I find myself completly unable to find anything one could cut. Common sense would tell you 1-2 lands, which I hate. As most of you might know, I'm all for consistency and long-term grinding with this deck so decreasing the already realtively low number (compared to other decks) of keepable hands is highly problematic.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
That's fair. And your defense of your list is sound. I just like certain crutches, perhaps. Also, congrats on your finish last weekend! I was rooting for you the whole time.
Hey man. Don't beat yourself up too much. You were doing pretty well until you hit Bertoncini + Reanimator. Large MTG events are a whole different kind of beast. Just keep working on those fair deck matchups. They have all the tools to beat us and aren't necessarily guaranteed wins.
In other news, a little birdy (SCG Mobile app) tells me that Drew Levin will publish an SCG Premium article later today in which he recommends people play D&T or Elves at their next Invitational as he thinks those are the two decks with the most potential right now. He goes into a little break down of why he sees those as the best decks. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him and, honestly, I kind of wish Elves was Tier 2 right now so people would stop playing -1/-1 TNN hate, but it's also nice to see the deck get some love from SCG. It also gives us a third reason to throw a stink-eye at Josh Ravitz.
Elves Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/2EVsdw2
Cool, I'm actually looking forward to one of Levin's articles for once.
Here's how I would rank the various Legacy decks at the moment:
1. Miracles/D&T
2. TA/Shardless/Elves
3. RUG/DeathBlade
TA is a bit weaker but more consistent than the other decks.
In regard to Drew Levin's SCG Premium article, I highly suggest it as a good read.
Edit: As an American playing in Europe the last year or more (and returning to the States very soon), I can appreciate his discussion on the Europe and US legacy meta's.
It's definitely a good read. I liked that he made sure people were aware that Elves isn't just some easy combo deck to pilot, especially when it comes to the sideboard plan. When I first started playing the deck last Summer, I was not the same pilot as I am now. It really rewards you for playing it correctly and knowing matchups. I also liked that he didn't really give away too many secrets and tricks when it came to that aspect of the deck and its sideboard plan, but he is making people more aware of the fact that Wirewood Symbiote is one of our best creatures, not Heritage Druid. I like when people name Heritage Druid with a Revoker, Meddling Mage, or otherwise Swords or Bolt it, not my Symbiote.
It's interesting he recommends Ruric Thar main deck. I am always so back and forth about it.
I'll be interested to see what he comes up with in his next article on control decks and decks with Toxic Deluge to hurt Elves and Death and Taxes.
Also, thanks Danyul for the reply. Totally agree.
How do you guys beat combo decks?
It seems that elves is always the slowest combodeck compared to the others: ant,tes,sneak show,reanimator,led-dredge.
Hate from different angles seems great to have,so my first thought was 4 copies of each discard,countermagic and hate-permanents.
Like this maybe:
2 flusterstorm
2 swan Song
4 cabal therapy
4 pyrexian Revoker
I normally play ant (also at the last BoM with my young pyromancer-ant,most people will remember that)
And there is a general rule when sideboarding with a comboarchetype:
The more you board in cards the weaker the deck gets.
I mean if you board in (for example) 12 cards,you have to weaken your primary win strategy because the deck is not as fluent as it was g1.
I'm not sure how to fight combodecks,give me some input concerning ard selection,copies of those cards and strategies guys :)
Typically our decks as of late have ran about 6 discard spells, often being a 3/3 split between Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize. This just goes with that proactive tactic, trying to delay them as long as possible for us to win. Other lists opt for more 1 of sideboards with just 4 discard spells which results in being 4 copies of their choice between the two discard spells. In this situation, Swan Song has become a strong option on the European side of things, and is usually a 3x of. The decks that run Null Rod can bring it in against Storm, while Pithing Needle can help other combo MUs. Revoker is likely bad as combo decks with access to red will bring in Pyroclasm even if they have the advantage against Elves, so there goes the Revokers; not to mention there is no synergies with your elves and you can't find them with your green spells. This is where a card like Gaddock Teeg as a 1 of is brought up. He can be found with any green tutor and is easily hard castable. Not saying he is the most optimal, just giving an example. If you really want a permanent in there to disrupt a combo player, look at Thorn of Amethyst. Anyway I'd rather cast a discard spell and still play elves while maybe leaving another mana open for SS (over playing Revoker). Also found most commonly on the EU side of things is Ruric Thar, be it main deck or side board; obviously for use against Storm. If you wanted something like Flusterstorm I'd rather just run Mindbreak Trap, which isn't seen as much anymore in Elves but was a common thing last year.
Against combo the Elves deck will commonly look to taking out 1 of each of the non-critical elves, example 1 heritage druid, 1 nettle sentinel, etc. The number to be removed goes up for that elf based on the usefulness of said elf. Of course this also depends on how much you are trying to bring in. It is also a good idea to target the decks slower engines such as Wirewood Symbiote and Elvish Visionary (Not all 4 copies, usually 2-3 of each). Some view the card draw engine of these two as to slow for certain combo decks and suggest that it is a good idea to drop a couple copies of each in the combo MU. This leaves the mana producing engine and regular combo aspect of the deck intact while dropping the non-Glimpse card draw engine thats used for the more grindy MUs. If using Cabal Therapy you may want to consider dropping a couple Glimpse of Nature as well, just because the two in a way counter act each other. One needs creatures on the field to go off and the other wants to drop a creature from the field. Additionally the 4th NO is likely to come in if it already isn't, once again speeding up the decks best win con.
Moved again!! We're just living on the cusp.
Hi everyone! I've been testing an elves list with both red and blue splashes (for ruric md and for swan songs sb), I wanted to know what do you guys think about it. Keep up the good work, just like a guy posted a couple of days before, this thread has helped me so much to improve my play/understanding of the elves deck so far.
Here is the list:
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Heritage Druid
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Taiga
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 3 Swan Song
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