All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

To be honest, these days I wonder how broken that card would be. I mean I know it's broken, but compared to Brand, FSM, Omni and shit, it is starting to look almost reasonable.

Knowing how broken it is, that really makes me admire just how fucked up our format has become.

[btm10]

It's not just SneakShow, but all blue based combo decks. If you erase those decks from the metagame, you'll likely have only Belcher as a viable form of pure combo left, leading to an even more creature-centric Format in which T1 Ponder for FoW (against Belcher or bigger threats of your opponent) and then only slamming creatures and removal describes a whole game. The whole aspect of counterspells is pretty pointless if you push out Combo decks imo

This is just one more reason not to ban Brainstorm. The threat of reducing Legacy to a comboless format is real, and Miracles and Shardless BUG would also experience serious declines in power because they can no longer throw cards on top of their libraries. It's not just Delver strategies that would be hurt. And if Delver is the problem, then Delver should be the target. I don't think that Delver should be banned, but don't blame Brainstorm for it either.

[testing32]

This is just one more reason not to ban Brainstorm. The threat of reducing Legacy to a comboless format is real, and Miracles and Shardless BUG would also experience serious declines in power because they can no longer throw cards on top of their libraries. It's not just Delver strategies that would be hurt. And if Delver is the problem, then Delver should be the target. I don't think that Delver should be banned, but don't blame Brainstorm for it either.

What do you think you have right now? Last month the highest combo deck was painter at 9th, which is normally mono-Red.

[nedleeds]

The difference between Belcher on the draw is non existant, you either have Force / Trap or you don't. You can also have answers to empty. 2 card combo like Show and Derp is trying to assemble a derpy 2 card combo, the sorcery speed dig is OK but it'll get hurt the most because it wants to put redundant pieces back with Cheatstorm and shuffle them away. You see 2 griselbrands and a Show and Tell isn't ideal (I know it's a tough deck to play). If Show and Ape gets knocked down a notch I can't imagine anyone with the correct number of chromosomes would shed a tear, it's a miserable deck for everyone involved. It could use the 2 mana shuffle in cantrips to put extra idiotic creatures / sneaks back and produce a random 2. Storm combo is more apt to be able to play off multiple cards (extra dark rituals, LEDs).

Personally I'd rather they unban some cards and see what falls out, because Brainstorm is so far and above the power level of several cards on the BnR list it's laughable.

[Dice_Box]

No, Painter is R/W. Has been so for a while now.

[Lemnear]

This is just one more reason not to ban Brainstorm. The threat of reducing Legacy to a comboless format is real, and Miracles and Shardless BUG would also experience serious declines in power because they can no longer throw cards on top of their libraries. It's not just Delver strategies that would be hurt. And if Delver is the problem, then Delver should be the target. I don't think that Delver should be banned, but don't blame Brainstorm for it either.

To be honest, I understand the heat the whole Brainstorm + Ponder + Fetchlands core in Legacy draws from the strategies that cannot run blue, but I'm also convinced that the mayority of players rather jump on that train than seriously put time and efford into developing/tuning strategies that prey on these blue package which is often rightfully considered training wheels for bad deckbuilding or greedy keeps.

There are not nearly enough Suppression Fields, Chokes, Chalices, Thalias or mainboard REB's in the metagame to adress the named blue core, that I would even consider the discussion valid, because the cardpool in Legacy can't handle it itself and needs the help of the banhammer. I'm sure that calls for the ban of brainstorm are short-sighted and would cause collateral damage to the format which would not only significantly reduce the number of playable strategies in Legacy overall, but would also kill Legacy's draw and appeal compared to Modern. In the end, people would have to ask themselves why to bother with Legacy, if Modern is the cheaper and official supported Format with a similar metagame (as a result of crippling spell-based decks).

If the whole, sometimes uninteractive stuff happening after the usual T1 Delver really bugs you and is considered too strong, aim your hatred at the Delver and/or build a deck that beats the 3/2 flyer.

[nedleeds]

No, Painter is R/W. Has been so for a while now.

Didn't know mono red was banned. I need to keep up with the times.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's not just SneakShow, but all blue based combo decks. If you erase those decks from the metagame, you'll likely have only Belcher as a viable form of pure combo left, leading to an even more creature-centric Format in which T1 Ponder for FoW (against Belcher or bigger threats of your opponent) and then only slamming creatures and removal describes a whole game. The whole aspect of counterspells is pretty pointless if you push out Combo decks imo

I don't play Legacy that much, but from the many spells I countered in the last few weeks, it was mostly Terminus, Liliana, SFM, goyf, Ponder, AV, Jace and Counterbalance. I don't even remeber the last time I sit against a combo player.

[Dice_Box]

If your going to talk about the lists that are pulling in turny reports, at lest get the colours right. Mono red is not banned, but it's not as efficient as the version with E tut, RIP and Cannonest.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If the whole, sometimes uninteractive stuff happening after the usual T1 Delver really bugs you and is considered too strong, aim your hatred at the Delver and/or build a deck that beats the 3/2 flyer.

I'm just tinkering with a GW deck with 4+4 StP+PtE for creature control, and some really nasty creatures (like Indrik Stomphowler or Obstinate Baloth) to get rid of CB, Liliana and BSkull that pester the meta. Trouble is that no matter what you do, this is still weaker than usual blue shell. Yep, no Delver, Goyf, DRS or SFM may survive eight Swords, and the flow of 4/4, 5/3, 6/6 dudes is not what everyone loves to face, but the deck is slow like an autobus and it's not that hard to lose the early game.

[nedleeds]

If your going to talk about the lists that are pulling in turny reports, at lest get the colours right. Mono red is not banned, but it's not as efficient as the version with E tut, RIP and Cannonest.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13568&iddeck=99689

just a 2 month search in TC decks .......... I mean maybe the SCG lemmings copied each other R/w lists but it doesn't mean mono red painter isn't "a real deck".

[Dice_Box]

I didn't say it wasn't a real deck, only that it's finding itself superseded by a different build of the same deck. One that is better at pushing it's combo than Mono red. A deck I find to be the most durdeling of combo decks. Either you have the stone, or your at the mercy of the top deck with very limited filtering. White offers an extra shuffle effect and search effect.

Mono red is still a deck, it's just a worse one.

[nedleeds]

I understand what Enlightened Tutor does.

[Michael Keller]

It would be really nice if they unbanned something - anything at this point.

[BKclassic]

It would be really nice if they unbanned something - anything at this point.

+1.

[Megadeus]

Vise would be nice. T1 vise into sinkhole into vindicateall your lands sounds fun

[Barook]

It would be really nice if they unbanned something - anything at this point.

I fail to see how unbanning something would make the situation better aside from Brainstorm apologists going "See, Brainstorm isn't head and shoulders above several cards on the banned list anymore."

Again, what can be realistically be unbanned? Vise and Mind Twister would hardly do anything to the format.

Would Earthcraft make Enchantress more viable? And who says that SotF doesn't just breed another combo deck with a blue Brainstorm core at the end of the day?

Vise would be nice. T1 vise into sinkhole into vindicateall your lands sounds fun

Sure sounds like fun for the other side.

[Michael Keller]

Vise would be nice. T1 vise into sinkhole into vindicateall your lands sounds fun

There weren't nearly as many ways to dump your hand or counter spells as there are now since the card was banned in December of 1996. Vise was actually banned because anything restricted on the old "Type II" Banned List got the axe - a policy which effectively has carried through until today.

So initially, it seemed as though the DCI thought Vise was powerful enough to keep in Standard as a one-of, even though they felt it necessary to allow it to fall wayward in the mass-banning that took place that winter where all of those restricted cards got axed. We're also talking twenty years of time that has passed, and although the effect is pretty degenerate, in a format like Legacy I just don't see it as being overpowered today as it was then.

Just look at the lost discussion of the power of life points today: people start the game off at 16 or 17 regularly using fetches, Probes, Forces, shocks, etc. Even Ad Nauseam. Honestly, I think life as a payment resource has been abused far too much, almost to the point of absurdity. A card like this would punish those decks and players for abusing their life totals as a resource like that and keep things honest.

It would also speed up games significantly.

[ahg113]

If your going to point to blue based tempo being king and calling for a ban, pick a target that is unique to tempo, not something that's broadly played across a wide range of decks.

I agree with this comment. I'd prefer to see Brainstorm banned because it is the most ubiquitous.

However, where I think it turned for the worst was the printing of Delver, Snap Caster, TNN, and in revisionist history, V. Clique. Giving these creatures to blue is a mistake. Ban these four creatures, or the one spell Brainstorm, and the proverbial balance will be put closer to equal.

[aluisiocsantos]

I'm just curious as to how the meta would become with Delver banning.