Well it does contain two Imperial recruiter and it is interesting I would strongly argue this belongs in the "painted stone" category (i.e. Blue red welder).Originally Posted by teonsw
It is an interesting deck but I don't believe it is meant for this forum.
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So, what I find interesting about the less traditional painter variants that have done well recently is that they are mixing combos more. The invitational list had counterbalance and a lot of spot removal and the other list had thopter/sword combo. As my concern is more for the tempo (ie. delver) decks that are so popular right now, I ended up adding that combo to shortcake and it has performed extremely well. Trying to assemble the painter combo against RUG delver is near impossible. But if you concentrate on going after the thopter combo right away it works out very well. Also, you can just shave numbers a little to fit this combo in without changing the deck significantly. I still play 4 blood moon main so the mana needed to be tweaked considerably but the base of the deck hasn't changed. Kapn talked about trying to fit in a secondary strategy a couple months ago and I actually think that's what has made these new hybrid decks so successful. Other combinations are certainly viable as well. I just think that people are ill prepared for thopter combo right now.
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Last edited by drude1; 06-18-2014 at 01:42 AM. Reason: grammar
I would argue that assembling the combo against RUG isn't that hard. You have 3 welders and 4 painters. They have 4 bolts traditionally. However assembling the combo under a clock can be more difficult. I would reference back to a discussion a few posts ago about the inclusion of our own bolts.
Regarding your mixing combos discussion I would imagine your lists is something like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
5 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 plateau
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lotus Petal
1 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 enlightened tutor
I guess you could argue for the inclusion of blue lands but I feel lotus petal is really strong with welder. Perhaps a faithless looting or two could be included to ditch the foundry if it gets stuck in your hand. I would argue against the inclusion of more non-basic lands.
We don't need additional combos. We already play one card combos in addition to painter: blood moon and ensnaring bridge. the only time it makes sense is a one of in the board that already exists because of other cards: aka tormods crypt for 3 card painter or helm because a list runs RIPs. Anything else is just watering the deck down.
It is not worth playing thopter combo, it is not strong enough at all...
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
Well again, you'll have to tell that to all the people top 8ing with hybrid lists. And yes, the problem playing against delver, assuming you didn't immediately lock them out of the game with moon, is that they are clocking you for 6 points a turn while you are trying to keep a painter on the board. One or two burn spells along with one timely stifle and it's over. Not to mention that BUG delver is very popular right now, making bridges minimally viable.
I still like the standard list in general, and maybe the inclusion of some burn would do the trick, but I've just had a lot of success with coming from multiple angles. Does it have to be thopter? No. But the linear nature of the current build is it's biggest weakness when the meta is all tempo. Besides, if you really want to be all in on the combo, why not just play the U/R intuition version. It's a full turn faster and combo is much more resilient...but also folds to tempo decks.
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Actually the hybrid lists you mentioned are not really imperial painter at all, not every painter deck needs to be discussed in this thread.
I just don't see why thopter combo is more crucial against tempo decks than other parts of the deck...we already have had a tons of serious threat they must answer, wasting room for random combo is not worth it. If you expect a lot of Thresh, just play one of two copies of spellskite in the maindeck, and play more magus if you expect a lot of BUG variants.
I agree with you that the current RW version is more linear compared to the traditional mono red version. I personally don't like playing E-tutor and still play 3 bolts. I like Bolt very much, it is time walk against tempo or elves decks.
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
I'm not saying those lists were imperial painter, although the invitational list did include it. My point is what makes those lists so much more successful than the Ipainter lists? The common element is that they are really diversifying their threats. If you wanted to build a heavy burn aspect into an Ipainter list, that may also work. But 2-3 copies of a bolt spell isn't cutting it. The reason I'm talking about it on this thread is because I'm still interested in playing with the Ipainter skeleton (I've invested too much to not), but just want to explore better alternate win cons or defenses then trying to hold off with 1/x or 2/x dorks.
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I would argue that shortcake has performed much better than either of those lists over the course of multiple tournaments
i don't understand people arguing that shortcake is a too much linear deck. it is probably the less linear deck i've ever played. Yes, it is consistent in finding the combo due to enlightened tutor, but it attacks from a lot of other angles. Blood moon/Magus is a must answer against a majority of the field, ensnaring bridge locks some decks, then we have rest in peace from the sideboard which kills a part of the format. We even have another combo with helm of obedience, as well as th much needed burn in the board. If you really feel like you need another combo main deck (i don't think is necessary) just move 1 rest in peace and helm of obedience main deck. At least rest in peace has broad applications , differently from sword of the meek and thopter foundry.
Everything you mention above helps control the game in order to to deploy your strategy. None of them win you the game. You still have to activate a grindstone with painter successfully staying on the board or beat down with little dorks. Helm/rip is a potential alternative combo that you could play. The problem is that it doesn't interact with welders very well. I've also added tangle wires to take the blood moon/prison idea even further. That plan is successful in locking opponents out for a time but sometimes the combo is still either too fragile or they have Eldrazi/etc in the deck.
That's why I think you still need another way to win. Maybe it's even just running a couple planeswalkers main. I'm just saying, right now I really like this mini combo:
1 x stoneforge mystic
1 x jitte
1 x sword of the meek
1 x thopter foundry
The only problem is getting the thopter into play under a moon, so I cut the SSGs and play 4 petal and one mox opal.
And as far as traditional Ipainter putting up better numbers, what have you done for me lately? It's now a known commodity, and people are playing basics (even in delver now) and auto setting revokers and needles to grindstone, etc. look at the last 8+ major tournament T8s and tell me what you see.
This thread is for innovation I thought. Just trying to throw out other ideas.
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Hey guys! what about the RW Painter. top 8 in a Scg Open last month.
Creatures (8)
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (19)
4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
2 Buried Ruin
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
Spells (32)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faithless Looting
2 Pyroclasm
Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Wear
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wrath of God
i know it have a couples of anti-synergies, but it have a lot of "must counter/destroy" cards, Rest in peace shoots down Shaman, goyfs,and a large etc, and combo with helm.( a way better than thopter/sword. is a 1 activation and win).
Thoughts?
This version has been brought up on the previous page. It is a budget build that mostly won on the back of blood moon.
Legacy Decks:
UWR Delver
Imperial Painter
Burn
Manaless Dredge
Hey guys, just out of curiosity but how come IP doesn't play a Batterskull in the board? We have the ability to tutor for it, which also puts it on top of the deck so that it could be grinded into yard and welded into play. We have Welder to protect it/get it back if it's destroyed. We have sol lands to hammer it out faster. Is it just that it costs 5 or is it bridge? Seems like it'd be okay when you wanna go on the beatdown plan or need to gain some life and slow the game down. Bridge could be welded out so that you can swing and then welded back in. Guess that plan all hinges on multiple welders tho. Guess it's just the anti-synergy with bridge then?
To expand on this further: This deck was more control oriented and was looking to buy time to get into the combo rather than being able to find it using recruiters. Using this makes it something other than Imperial Painter. It has answers to a lot of things, but you have to luck into the combo. The only digging this deck has is Top, which can be slow and mana intensive, and Looting. I don't know... He tried something new and it clearly worked for him. Kudos to him for that.
To be honest, if I played more Legacy I would give this a shot from time to time just to see exactly how it works. However, with me only getting to jam this deck (Shortcake or Mono-Red) 1-2 times each week, I feel like I want to go with a proven list until I feel comfortable with it. However, I would be very excited to have someone else play this from time to time and report back. It seems interesting, but again,it is not Imperial Painter.
Edit: I lied. The version being discussed can pull the combo with E. Tutor. I guess it isn't all luck. The more I look at this, it seems like a cross between Imperial Painter and Parfait.
So, several different lines of play for the win, but no recruiters and just a hodge-podge of cards. But still serves to prove my point.
As for batterskull, I think it's viable, and in my 4 card combo I keep switching out the jitte with batterskull in SB and vice versa. Again, I'm not stone set on thopter combo but synergies well with stoneforge that you can search out with recruiter.
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I think we need to focus on the better deck for our combo (Painter and Grindstone), no matter if it have Imperial recruiter or not, cause' that creature is in the deck to find PAINTER'S SERVANT. is only a tutor. we don't need to create other post for the same combo,without the recruiterr, i think we want to win with the combo in first place, don't crucify me just for not use IMPERIAL RECRUITER. :P
Using this logic, we could just merge The Mighty Quinn thread with this one.
Blah blah blah. Slippery slope n' stuff.
Either way, we are getting off-topic.
you need to pull off the "imperial recruiters fan" t-shirt...
If I came off as argumentative, I apologize. That was not my intent. There have been discussion in the thread before about what all qualifies as Imperial Painter. Disagreeing about what should be discussed in this thread doesn't get anyone anywhere. Because of this, I will shut up now.
Again, I apologize for the way my earlier remarks sounded.
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