[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Brentane]

Hello. I am new to this site. You may have seen me on MTGSalvation. Once I found out The Source existed for Legacy, I jumped at the chance to sign up. My question for D&T is I can't decide if to have Brimaz, King of Oreskos in my deck. Should I have a 2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos + 2 Mirran Crusader split, or if I should just go for 4 Mirran Crusader? I don't have Karakas if that matters.

[mrjumbo03]

^There is no right or wrong answer. Basically depends on your meta (or the number of Abrupt Decays vis-a-vis Lightning bolts). Karakas does give you an extra layer of protection for Brimaz, which tilts the decision for me.

P.S. The discussion for DnT is much more active over at Salvation. I don't know why.

[Barook]

Personally, I find 4 beaters excessive. Overall, I like Crusader better in the current meta for various reasons, mainly because he can't be bounced by opposing Karakas, handling Batterskull like a pro, relevant protections and being nuts with equipment.

Brimaz is good against burn spells. That's it. Although I can see a justification in running him if Burn becomes more relevant. If you can't protect him with Karakas, that's even worse.

That said, I would rather run 3 Crusaders or a 2 Crusader/1 Brimaz split.

[Finn]

I don't have Karakas if that matters.

It definitely matters. Brimaz, like Spirit of the Labyrinth, has been peculiarly under-performing for a lot of players despite having such obvious beneficial traits. If you do not have any Karakas I think I just might skip him for now.

And welcome to The Source. This place is not nearly as caustic as it once was. I'm not sure how I feel about that notion. As I mention in the OP however, for this deck in particular - and possibly only for this deck - Salvation has always had the better discussion.

EDIT: Wow...double ninja strike on my post. Admit it. You guys just got to work too.

[Richard Cheese]

You have fair points, and I do remember the name-bashing you recieved a while back on this forum so I will sympathize with the "i told you so" comment you wrote before, intellectual discussion over deck theory is a lot more beneficial when the conversation I feel is civil and respectful; so please understand everyting I say is coming in that tone :).

I'm not going to quote the whole text wall, because I think your point is basically that D&T is fine as it is, and I more or less agree. I just think that the Black splash is not only viable, but because it has all the same "taxing" effects, the same virtual CA in Stoneforge, and plays mostly the same, that this is a better place to discuss it than the Deadguy thread. I have the same problems that aren't really relevant over there, what beaters/finishers to use, how to deal with decks where taxing doesn't really work, etc..

[raikenxy]

I'm not going to quote the whole text wall, because I think your point is basically that D&T is fine as it is, and I more or less agree. I just think that the Black splash is not only viable, but because it has all the same "taxing" effects, the same virtual CA in Stoneforge, and plays mostly the same, that this is a better place to discuss it than the Deadguy thread. I have the same problems that aren't really relevant over there, what beaters/finishers to use, how to deal with decks where taxing doesn't really work, etc..

and to answer your question I would have to say cut black lol. Which was another inherent flaw I found with the black tax strategy, the creatures your adding (Bob, Sculler) come at the expense of cards like flickerwisp, serra avenger, mirran crusader/brimaz. I'm not privy to what list your using but flickerwisp beating for 3 in the air more powerful then given credit for; it's one of the more aggresive cards in the whole deck. sculler and bob themselves don't exactly provide the same kind of offense.

[Richard Cheese]

and to answer your question I would have to say cut black lol. Which was another inherent flaw I found with the black tax strategy, the creatures your adding (Bob, Sculler) come at the expense of cards like flickerwisp, serra avenger, mirran crusader/brimaz. I'm not privy to what list your using but flickerwisp beating for 3 in the air more powerful then given credit for; it's one of the more aggresive cards in the whole deck. sculler and bob themselves don't exactly provide the same kind of offense.

I definitely have a love/hate relationship with Sculler. It can be amazing in some situations, like with Vial against Miracles, all the time vs. combo, or by exiling things that are normally resilient to discard; Punishing Fire, Loam, Lingering Souls. OTOH, a lot of times you get put in a position where you can't really attack or block with him because giving that card back would lead to a huge advantage.

When you mentioned Flickerwisp/O-ring shenanigans, I thought I might try those over Crusaders to get the same interaction with Sculler, but I think it's probably too much of a corner case. Haven't tested that much though. What I may do is try moving Scullers to the board in favor of better beaters, like Avenger. Probably Avenger because I'm weak enough to -x/-1 strategies already, although having access to Zealous Persecution in the board mitigates that somewhat. Brimaz I'm just not sold on yet.

[Rogan]

M15 possibly bringing us new tools?

Hushwing Gryff (2W)
Creature - Hippogriff

Flash

Flying

Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

An overwhelming sense of calm accompanies the gryffs that wheel above the roofs of Gavony.

illus. John Severin Brassell # 15/2692/1

A Torpor Orb strapped to a flash flying 2/1 flying body? Seems pretty interesting.

2 colorless and a single white make casting this relatively easy but Flickerwisp and Stoneforge Mystic might not be a fan of this guy. Also being another X/1 makes us even more vulnerable to the hate people already bring in against us.

Thoughts?

[Barbed Blightning]

Aven Mindcensor is one-sided, more effective and still not widely accepted. This is not a card we will ever be using.

[nevilshute]

I think we have to ask ourselves, what EtB triggers are relevant among the tier 1 decks in legacy. Now, off the top of my mind, the following creatures come to mind: Stoneforge Mystic, Craterhoof Behemoth and to a lesser extent Snapcaster Mage, Elvish Visionary and... Flickerwisp I guess.

Against Elves this could be very nice, but at 3CMC it suffers the same issue as Aven Mindcensor. If we aren't dead (or dead in the water) by our third turn then Mindcensor hoses elves reasonably too but it also serves a better alround hosing purpose against nearly the whole field than this.

Are Snapcaster decks a problem? I'd say no.

And we haven't even discussed how badly this card potentially hits ourselves, shutting off both Stoneforge and Flickerwisp.

Too bad

[from Cairo]

And we haven't even discussed how badly this card potentially hits ourselves, shutting off both Stoneforge and Flickerwisp.

Right on. If it was "Opponents' creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger," I don't even think it would be a valuable replacement for current slots. As printed it nulls 7-8 of our cards which is likely more than most Opponents.

It's a cool hatebear, probably interesting in Modern where it attacks Twin's ETB Untaps and Pod being a deck full of ETBs. The card of ours that it hurts the most is banned in Stoneforge Mystic.

[Finn]

Considering that they got the power level essentially perfect with Aven Mindcensor (in the sense that it sees plenty of play, but is not a sure bet), it seems strange that they would nerf this guy who is a reflection of it. Or is Mindcensor really that good in Modern?

[HammafistRoob]

This guy is better than Mindcensor in Modern, but in Legacy? Not so much :(.

EDIT- What cards do we have outside of like Mindcenor, Spirit of Lab, and Ratchet Bomb to help fight Elves?

[Barook]

EDIT- What cards do we have outside of like Mindcenor, Spirit of Lab, and Ratchet Bomb to help fight Elves?

Canonist can slow them down, especially with Mom back-up.

Grafdigger's Cage ruins their search engine, but doesn't slow their draw down.

[dcosiem]

Did anyone see this guy?



Wizards' keeps coming up with more insane cards for white to be pretty much balance or go toe to toe with any deck in legacy. I'm so surprise that I think this deck doesn't really have a weakness anymore in terms of it's power and tools it can use.

[bakofried]

Finally, a way to turn your pesky Stoneforge Mystics into the Squires they long to be!

[Mr. Froggy]

Did anyone see this guy?



Wizards' keeps coming up with more insane cards for white to be pretty much balance or go toe to toe with any deck in legacy. I'm so surprise that I think this deck doesn't really have a weakness anymore in terms of it's power and tools it can use.

This is obviously a Modern card as a hoser for Twin.

I don't feel it for Legacy D&T, it hurts us way too much.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hello fellow sourcers,

I'm planning on playing other legacy decks in order to grow as a legacy player. Death and Taxes is one of those decks I am planning on learning how to play. What is the most stock version of death and taxes that you guys would recommend to a new death and taxes player?

[Barbed Blightning]

Hello fellow sourcers,

I'm planning on playing other legacy decks in order to grow as a legacy player. Death and Taxes is one of those decks I am planning on learning how to play. What is the most stock version of death and taxes that you guys would recommend to a new death and taxes player?

As a seasoned D&Ter,


4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Flickerwisp
3 Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

4 Waste
4 Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern
11 Plains

[Dragonslayer_90]

As a seasoned D&Ter,


4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Flickerwisp
3 Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

4 Waste
4 Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern
11 Plains

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.