All B/R update speculation.

[btm10]

I think people are getting a jump on the post brainstorm world. After that 15/16 showing, it's obviously going to get banned, and this is what will result. Lot's of elves as a strong combo deck that doesn't want brainstorm, a Belcher for haha's, and good ole cheap Burn, because the cool kids with money left the format.

Most likely, or most definitely.

This is highly unlikely. I think nedleeds' explanation is better, coupled with the fact that people are being punished for not running sweepers given how well Death and Taxes and Elves have been doing on the SCG circuit recently. Vegas actually had 3 copies of Elves in the top 16 in January, so it might just be popular there. It may have even been underrepresented then because it was an Open after the Invitational.

[Ellomdian]

People in Vegas clearly can't afford blue duals because of drug habits and gambling losses.

I tried not to laugh - it's wrong, and coarse, and stupid.

But it is funny...

[Phoenix Ignition]

What are the chances of Survival being unbanned in the next ~2-3 years? I pretty much only want to play that deck in Legacy and am wondering if I should just get a playset to sit on so I can play immediately if/when it gets unbanned.


Sorry if this trainwrecks the thread.

[Megadeus]

What are the chances of Survival being unbanned in the next ~2-3 years? I pretty much only want to play that deck in Legacy and am wondering if I should just get a playset to sit on so I can play immediately if/when it gets unbanned.


Sorry if this trainwrecks the thread.

This thread is one giant train wreck. And I doubt it will get unbanned, though I wish it would. Forest is best basic land type.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Even with the current sockem bopper format of TNN equipped with jitte vs TNN equipped with jitte?

[Megadeus]

A lot of people (me included) think it is fine to be unbanned, but many do not, and I don't think WOTC will unban it.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I want to see a giant meta game shifting ban list update. Delver, Griselbrand, Brainstorm banned. Survival and frantic search unbanned.

[Megadeus]

Just unban Balance so everyone can simultaneously quit the format.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I want to see a giant meta game shifting ban list update. Delver, Griselbrand, Brainstorm banned. Survival and frantic search unbanned.

I completely agree. With the current state of legacy I won't even take the time out of my weekend to go to a tournament. Watching SCG coverage is like watching a car accident for me. The one time I turned it on this weekend it was I think UWR vs Bug with both players swinging at each other with a Jitte'd TNN. One of them won when he got a SoFaF also equipped on his TNN.

If something doesn't shake up the format I can't imagine I'm the only one who'll just fade away from this game. Seriously though, think of a format where the prevalent strategy in multiple decks is to get a Protection from Player creature out and equipped with an array of weapons. What is this, some JRPG card game?

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

actually I think you will not be the only one but their will by not enough players quitting to even think worrying about.
If you really dislike TNN and that I can understand play a deck which has no problem with it. Miracles would be my
choice to do this or any other deck with can afford to play thing like countermagic, Terminus and or
Councils jugdement.

If you don´t want to play anyone of this fine but then you have no basis whining about how broken the card is were
actually answers are there but not prefered to be played out of some personal feelings like is dislike blue.

If you really want to win then do all to acomplish this if you just want to play fun then thats ok to but don´t try to
play competetive with a non optimal deck and think that cards are broken only because you don´t wnat to play
the answers.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[Admiral_Arzar]

I want to see a giant meta game shifting ban list update. Delver, Griselbrand, Brainstorm banned. Survival and frantic search unbanned.

I would rather the bans be Delver, Griselbrand, TNN, and Terminus, but you've got the right idea.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Nah, I'm completely justified in whining if the reason for my complaints is format stagnancy and a lack of competitive decks that I enjoy. This isn't a profession, it's a hobby, and when you have to choose between having fun and winning there needs to be a discussion about the state of the game. I'm not the first one to bring it up, and I don't really even care to argue over it, it's just a fact. If legacy continues down its current path I'm just done.

Call me a filthy casual if you must, but I played legacy competitively for maybe 8 years and casually for maybe 3 before that and I've been following the scene for at least those 8 years, and in all of that time the game has been slowly trending towards where it is now. Bigger, fatter bombs that auto-win or auto-lose. Having immediate answers became more important than being able to grind out the incremental advantages that would lead to winning. It's more about having the exact thing you need right now than being able to think ahead for the line of play that will let you win.

Maybe the most fitting and best analogy I can make is that now spaghetti monster gods punch their way to victory in 2 turns whereas before the nimble mongeese were slowly outwitting their opponents. Creatures that scream uninteractivity can be used as the best offense and defense that ever existed. Drawbacks are no longer tactically relevant, creatures only have upsides. I realize the era of magic that I love has ended, and now we're doomed to answer-me-before-I-hit-play-or-lose single cards, but I'd probably start playing again for Survival of the Fittest.

[Rome]

My opinion is:
Ban Sensei's Devining Top, ban Delver of Secrets

Top makes the games very slow, and a fast flipped Delver with counter back up is very hard to handle. There is no Creature who is as strong as delver.

Unban: survival of the fittest, frantic search, mind twist.

Survival is now much more easy to handle. Espeacially by abrupt decy.
Frantic search makes spiral tide stronger, and mind twist at the ban list is a bad joke.
Hymn to tourach is much more better than mind twist, and if you use a lot of fast mana to discard opponents Hand it is also a fair trade.

A crazy try in legacy would be mana drain. But i think it would make miracles nearly unbeatable. Counter a big spell for many angels.

Memory jar is also a nice card to think about the unbann.

[sjmcc13]

Maybe the most fitting and best analogy I can make is that now spaghetti monster gods punch their way to victory in 2 turns whereas before the nimble mongeese were slowly outwitting their opponents. Creatures that scream uninteractivity can be used as the best offense and defense that ever existed. Drawbacks are no longer tactically relevant, creatures only have upsides.

I left for a few years, and started getting back into magic a little under 2 years ago, and I can really see where you are coming from. I do not enjoy limited anywhere near what I use to, there is to much over the top bombs that you win if you get and draw. They seem to be picking and choosing deck types to support and hate out based on their own definition of how magic should be as opposed to what made it the best game on the market, and there are to many cards that scream OP probably a mistake with potential long term consequences that should be obvious before printing the card (TNN should never have gotten printed as worded). It just feels like they are trying to turn the game into nothing but creature combat with no other axis of play.

A crazy try in legacy would be mana drain. But i think it would make miracles nearly unbeatable. Counter a big spell for many angels.

I use to run drain into Decree of Justice years ago in a proxy allowed vintage tournaments. It was fun... but miracle casting entreat is probably easier

[menace13]

Mind Twist is fun. Fun like being on top deck mode. Getting 4 for 1'd is totally a joke.

[Megadeus]

Yeah I mean a 5 Mana spell piercable 4 for one is so good on turn five when your opponent has 2 cards in hand

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

you are right but is a good turn 1,2 or even 3 when your oppenent still has more cards and in combination with other discard you could even think about Mono Black Control
discard with Hypno Specter and Chains etc.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[nedleeds]

No matter what the shaved apes do they should leave it to one card (either on or off) per BNR announcement. It's easier (obviously) to gauge the impact. I'd also err towards unbanning rather than banning if it's a close decision.

Unban in order of most worthless card to most useful:

Black Vise
Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Survival of the Fittest

Ban in order of absurdity with respect to the cards already on the banned list:

Brainstorm (absurd beyond absurd)
Griselbrand (a comparable yawgmoth's bargain)
Delver (a better black vise)

If something as bad as Earthcraft combo even sniffs competitive play it'll likely be in a deck with 4 x Brainstorm. Why bother with it in Elves when 2GG gets you like 50+ points of trample damage anyway? Same with Survival, you have XG survival that deposits the man on the battlefield, or just 2GG win the game, dicking around with a decayable, revokerable enchantment when you can just derp hoof your opponent is a waste of time. Maybe you board it in to sidestep cage? I think I'd rather just nuke the cage let out a loud ape noise and cast my natural order.

[sjmcc13]

If something as bad as Earthcraft combo even sniffs competitive play it'll likely be in a deck with 4 x Brainstorm.

No, it more likely be in a G/W enchantress list, since Whicte can tutor it up better then Brainstorm and you need ot be runnign basics which makes 3 colors allot harder.

[twndomn]

Delver:
If WotC did not ban it in the past, WotC certainly will not start now.

Survival:
The reasoning is that once un-banned, it's harder for all creature decks, all vial decks to Not run it. In other words, strategies would degenerate and decks would converge.