Made the finals yet again with the new U/R Pyromancer list, going 5-1 in the process.
Details to follow.
How do you feel about a fatty goyfOriginally Posted by Michael Keller
I'm not even sure what you're talking about.
How are you dealing with it
Well, there are a few ways to deal with Goyf.
This is a more control-based shell, and naturally all U/R variants have their inherent difficulties dealing with it. Thankfully, we have a multitude of options. The deck can gum the board up with tokens from Young Pyromancer and burn it out before it gets too large. Even then, it's a vanilla creature. A surprise Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt can finish it off, as well. Countering it is also a realistic possibility.
The thing to note is that this build has a higher amount of permission than typical U/R versions running more burn, but has redundancy built into it in multiple ways. Nemesis with Delver can power through damage in a hurry, as well. If Goyf is popular in your meta, you can use cards like Curfew and Dismember to take care of it. Mine doesn't have many, so I play accordingly. However, I've tested against decks running it and it really hasn't been that big of a deal. There are so many tricks this deck has built into it that dealing five damage to a Tarmogoyf isn't that hard - even if it means trading.
Have you ever thought of bringing in submerges?
Are those of you playing the Young Pyromancer builds having issues with -x/-x effects? Feels like they're everywhere around here.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
That's another option, too. I just like Curfew because of its ability to hit untargetables like Emrakul and TNN and its great synergy with Snapcaster Mage and Young Pyromancer. It's really not even "cute" synergy; it's legitimately powerful.
Granted, it doesn't target. Submerge is better against Goyf, but I think Curfew's overall application is better in a deck like this. My list is in partial flux, but in all honesty I've been impressed with its performance.
Also, here were my match-ups for reference:
Round [1]: vs. U/R Delver [W 2-0]
Round [2]: vs. RUG [W 2-0]
Round [3]: vs. Goblins [W 2-0]
Round [4]: vs. Burn [W 2-1]
Top Four: vs. U/R Pyromancer [W 2-1]
Finals: vs. Goblins [L 1-2]
No excuses against the Goblins deck the second go-around in the finals, but I did keep an extremely loose hand game three when it was getting late. Wound up almost pulling it out, though.
People were also asking me if I missed Gitaxian Probe, which I honestly really didn't. I may be entirely wrong on this one, but the way the deck flowed I could see how the draws were smoother and the deck played itself out. Opening hands felt comfortable with more action, and there were really no discrepancies as far as mulligans were concerned.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-11-2014 at 03:29 PM.
would you take out an island for another waste?
I could I suppose. I haven't noticed or cared for the fourth.
I used to play the old Boaz list and had a ton of fun and good success. My meta shifted and I wanted wasteland, but in looking to go back to Keller's list so I can use my foil noxious revivals. Can someone talk a lite bit about how the counterbalance matchup goes?
I've been finding that pyromancer is more and more a meta call. My meta is lots and lots of TNN, so all the black decks (as in decks with black in them, like BUG and Jund) are running toxic deluge in the side. Then you've got zealous persecution in the deathblade lists, which is good against delver even without pyromancer.
Now, oddly enough, the printing of Council's Judgement is probably the best thing to happen to young pyromancer; instead of running -X/-X effects, they're just running that (since it doesn't target), which isn't actually all that awesome against pyromancer.
All that said, in my eyes there are only two versions of UR delver that should ever really see play: Pyromancer lists, and Price of Progress lists.
My personal favorite deck in the entire format is UR delver with Price. Price of Progress means you're going for burn, and should also be running goblin guide since that card is absolutely nuts. Pyro is okay here, but you don't have as many slots for it. The core of this deck is this, IMO:
4 Delver
3-4 Snapcaster
4 Guide
1-2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force
4 Bolts
4 Chain lightning (I cannot think of a reason to run less than 4)
2-3 Price
2-6 Counterspells
4 Brainstorm, best card in the deck
3-4 Ponder (I guess preordain could work. I've never seen it before Keller's list in this thread, but I'm sure it works just as well.)
8-10 Fetchlands
8-10 Lands
(Total lands should be 18)
Do not run wasteland in this list. Not only do you want to hit them for a bunch with price of progress, but you also want to hit 4 mana reliably since flashing back price of progress is the ultimate game ender. Without wasteland, stifle becomes kind of bad, so don't run it either. I also advise against daze since it's not that strong when you're not running mana denial. Plus, this deck is very mana intensive with snapcaster (a 3-4 mana card) and grim lavamancer, so bouncing your lands is not the strongest play. To compensate, run spell pierce. Spell snare is also super strong in this list since you have no consistent outs against a resolved goyf. I'm pretty sure this is stuff everyone already knows, but I'm bored at work so screw it. :P
Andrew schneider's UR burn list won a SCG open or something similar recently, it looks like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Lava Spike
I've been running with this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
Probe is good. Like, really good. If anything, I'm just testing without it; I've actually been really missing it lately. I've been considering a 2/2/2 split of pierce/snare/probe. I think snare is too good to pass up as well since it hits like half the cards that rip us a new one (goyf, SFM, hardcasted Jitte to name a few). Maybe I could cut a GL from the main for a probe, then squeeze one into the side. Maybe cut a smash, 3 is probably too much. But for now, that's what I'm running.
Forked bolt isn't that important in the burn list cause you run 8 bolts and at least one grim Lavamancer. If you see a lot of DnT and maverick in your meta, run one, but even against delver it's not that necessary since you run such an ungodly amount of relevant removal.
Four Volcanics is probably best but the price jumped and I only have 3 from RUG so fuck that.
I'm finding that Spell Snare is actually looking better and better. It's not just its application against any two-drop - it's just that some of the best cards in the format right now are at a converted cost of two. They also happen to be inherently good against us, so I may consider that split.
i suppose you will take out fire/ice and a gutshot
With the increase in islands in the UR deck, does Thwart become an option? Maybe as a singleton? It also works well with Price of Progress on the stack.
Or maybe foil? discarding something for snappy to flash back?
Might be too cute though..
Hey Hollywood.
Been playing with your deck design, its a very fun deck especially dominating tempo strategies
I have a question, any ideal on how to beat the miracles matchup?
I've been thinking about that, and honestly I'm thinking of shifting to Pithing Needles in the board if I'm going to a large event with the deck or play in a meta with Miracles everywhere. I think the ability to shut down Top is just huge, and I think you play enough counters to war it out against an opponent's early Counterbalance.
Not exactly the best match-up in the world, but there are options you can explore to beat it out of the board. Another TNN may be ideal; that really only leaves Terminus as their only out.
Both thwart and foil seem really bad. For 0 mana counters I think we should just stick with force. Between Force and pierce I don't find myself lacking in counter magic.With the increase in islands in the UR deck, does Thwart become an option? Maybe as a singleton? It also works well with Price of Progress on the stack.
Or maybe foil? discarding something for snappy to flash back?
Might be too cute though..
Remember, we're not a control deck.
Welcome to Sulfuric Vortex and a better manabase.
Sulfuric Vortex is an option.
This is a two-color deck with an almost even balance of blue and red spells (at least my version is); as long as its supported properly, a "better" mana-base should be largely irrelevant and more dependent on which version you choose to run.
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