All B/R update speculation.

[rancOr_]

Voting for a ban on brainstorm is short minded.. It would make the format worse(way more combo). I can see unbanning Survival/(mind twist/black vise) though as the card quality went up and we have plenty of answers for cards like that now..

[Zombie]

Is the risk of the number of not-fun-for-most games increasing worth a line less on the ban list? So many people argue Vise/Twist should be unbanned because they would do nothing. But they do nothing just as surely on the ban list. Are there any actually positive arguments for them? How would the format become more fun if those cards saw the light of day? Delver decks with two playsets of Delver sounds fun, doesn't it?

[iamajellydonut]

I think almost the entire community is together on Black Vise and Earthcraft

It's like jailing teddy bears.

[Megadeus]

Is the risk of the number of not-fun-for-most games increasing worth a line less on the ban list? So many people argue Vise/Twist should be unbanned because they would do nothing. But they do nothing just as surely on the ban list. Are there any actually positive arguments for them? How would the format become more fun if those cards saw the light of day? Delver decks with two playsets of Delver sounds fun, doesn't it?

Why should cards be banned for fun level? If that were the case High Tide would be super banned because that is simply not an exciting deck to play against. There would be decks that would play these cards, but not dominate the meta. Best case, they help to make a prison strategy/aggro a bit more viable, worst case it does nothing? Like Land Tax. Sure it doesn't do anything on a massive scale, but it got people excited to try it out, and I know a few locals still play it because it is an interesting build around card. It isn't like any effort is exerted in unbanning a card.

[(nameless one)]

Voting for a ban on brainstorm is short minded.. It would make the format worse(way more combo). I can see unbanning Survival/(mind twist/black vise) though as the card quality went up and we have plenty of answers for cards like that now..

I'm pretty sure Brainstorm + Fetchlands is great for finding combo pieces.

Why can't we just ban Fetchlands? Fetchlands nerf Brainstorm, SDTop, Deathrite Shaman, Super Jace, and to some extent Goyfs.

It also makes Wasteland and Blood Moon better.

[HammerAndSickled]

A smaller banned list is in my opinion a good thing intrinsically, so any decisions which seemingly "do nothing" should default to an unban. A card being banned should mean that said card is intrinsically harmful to the format, and I don't believe the current list exemplifies that at all. In addition to the obvious Earthcraft/Twist/Vise that are commonly spoken of, I think Windfall is entirely safe, and perhaps even Bargain or Mind's Desire, which need extensive testing but instinctually I believe they aren't notably better than current options.

[Megadeus]

A smaller banned list is in my opinion a good thing intrinsically, so any decisions which seemingly "do nothing" should default to an unban. A card being banned should mean that said card is intrinsically harmful to the format, and I don't believe the current list exemplifies that at all. In addition to the obvious Earthcraft/Twist/Vise that are commonly spoken of, I think Windfall is entirely safe, and perhaps even Bargain or Mind's Desire, which need extensive testing but instinctually I believe they aren't notably better than current options.

No idea on Windfall, but I'm not sold. Bargain is kinda meh. On the fence. Mind's Desire on the other hand... Completely insane.

[Dice_Box]

I'm pretty sure Brainstorm + Fetchlands is great for finding combo pieces.

Why can't we just ban Fetchlands? Fetchlands nerf Brainstorm, SDTop, Deathrite Shaman, Super Jace, and to some extent Goyfs.

It also makes Wasteland and Blood Moon better.

Please no. Banning Brainstorm would not make me leave the format, killing my land base on the other hand, will. The greatest part of Legacy is the complex interactions that come from all these moving pieces and I really don't want to feel like a Neanderthal slinging shit around like some standard player.

[btm10]

Is the risk of the number of not-fun-for-most games increasing worth a line less on the ban list? So many people argue Vise/Twist should be unbanned because they would do nothing. But they do nothing just as surely on the ban list. Are there any actually positive arguments for them? How would the format become more fun if those cards saw the light of day? Delver decks with two playsets of Delver sounds fun, doesn't it?

Vise might make an artifact prison deck or aggro-Tezz deck better; Earthcraft has a very good chance of making Enchantress tier 1.5 rather than a useless relic. Mind Twist could fit into a Tezz-control strategy or be slotted into BUG Control as a mid- or late-game bomb.

A smaller banned list is in my opinion a good thing intrinsically, so any decisions which seemingly "do nothing" should default to an unban. A card being banned should mean that said card is intrinsically harmful to the format, and I don't believe the current list exemplifies that at all. In addition to the obvious Earthcraft/Twist/Vise that are commonly spoken of, I think Windfall is entirely safe, and perhaps even Bargain or Mind's Desire, which need extensive testing but instinctually I believe they aren't notably better than current options.

I agree that a smaller banned list is a worthwhile goal in and of itself. I think that Bargain is pretty scary, but I'd entertain arguments. Windfall I think is even scarier but that might be colored by how it gets used in Vintage; in Legacy, our combo decks have a harder time making blue mana, don't generally run Draw7s, and don't have Yawgmoth's Will. That being said, a deck with 4 LED, 4 Windfall seems pretty busted. Mind's Desire is broken, broken, broken. Short of banning all of Legacy's spell-based mana acceleration, I can't think of how to make that card safe.

[Scott]

He did; I apologize for suggesting otherwise, although Manaless Dredge is one of those decks that really only succeeds when people skimp on graveyard hate, so I suppose I should broaden my statement to qualify that while some of these other decks can succeed a few times, they're unlikely to keep doing so because they rely heavily on exploiting metagame vulnerabilities that people can adjust for in the existing shells.

...
And your previous success with obscure decks is definitely, absolutely because Legacy in the good ol' days was a format full of deck-building geniuses who were rewarded for their novel approach and creative flair, and not because you were playing suboptimal decks against other suboptimal decks.
...

I think he also innovated and placed in large events with the difficult to hose from the sideboard The Gate, with the not obscure deck Imperial Painter, and very recently with Manaless Dredge, to address the various idea that his deck innovations were easily hoseable, suboptimal and now irrelevant, or happened in a different era.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

please try to quit the thinking that a ban list is there to make the fromat more fun. A ban lists one and only goal should be to balance
the tournement scence to a level were as fiew as possible things like the egg deck or flash can happen.
Saying that this card is unfun in the most of the games toaly pointless becasue in non tournement games you have the desscion to not
just ban this card for your casual games every moment.

In this context banning brainstorm is not a good option because it increases consitency and therefore the skill level needed to play whil derceaseing
the luckfactor and frustrating unlucky tournement drops like round 7 manascrew with a 6/1 and 8 rounds for Top 8.
Also fetchlands are the same increasing consitency is a good thing if you look for tournement play so fetchlands are fine too.

If you want to ban something that bad because you feel blue is to strong ban the TNN because this card does not provide any advantage in the great
picture but again there are answers against it allready which just wanted to be played if you refuse then you should overthink what you expect from
the game you play.

For the smaller banned list I have to agree if after enough testing a card is refered as not totally broken like Mental Missstep then you can just unban this card
and get a smaller list while providing more cards to experiment with.

best Regards Teveshszat

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I'm pretty sure Brainstorm + Fetchlands is great for finding combo pieces.

Why can't we just ban Fetchlands? Fetchlands nerf Brainstorm, SDTop, Deathrite Shaman, Super Jace, and to some extent Goyfs.

It also makes Wasteland and Blood Moon better.

Literally no one wants this, people enjoy having consistent mana and playing their spells, it makes for much more enjoyable and interesting games than "whelp. lost cause I couldn't draw a x mana source"

[Jon]

Hello,


If you want to ban something that bad because you feel blue is to strong ban the TNN because this card does not provide any advantage in the great
picture but again there are answers against it allready which just wanted to be played if you refuse then you should overthink what you expect from
the game you play.

best Regards Teveshszat

We can deal with TNN easily as it costs 3 mana. Delver is a different story.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why should cards be banned for fun level?

Because- and I know that this is a shocking and controversial premise for some- Magic is a game.

Hello,

please try to quit the thinking that a ban list is there to make the fromat more fun. A ban lists one and only goal should be to balance
the tournement scence to a level were as fiew as possible things like the egg deck or flash can happen.

Is this goal distilled from the raw aether of space and time? Did you uncover the moment of creation, ex nihilo, and find it embedded in universal first principles?

I am assuming not so you are going to have to explain why this should be the goal, and why those reasons are unrelated to people having fun.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

Is this goal distilled from the raw aether of space and time? Did you uncover the moment of creation, ex nihilo, and find it embedded in universal first principles?

I am assuming not so you are going to have to explain why this should be the goal, and why those reasons are unrelated to people having fun.

so you go the complex way for an asumtion like that necassary but don´t know why I state that fun is something unrealted to a ban and restricted list?

Ok I try to explain it.


Fun is something you have you you don´t you will chose were you get it and were not. You can have fun when playing tournmenets or not and maybe if you don´t you avoid them.
But don´t confuse going to a tournment wihtout proper preperation and mindset( play to win and do anything neccassary) and complaining about the bad results and not having fun in the tournement becaucse card X is to strong. A quick example is TNN there are a number of ways (Council Jugdement, Terminus, Lilana etc) which solve this you just have to play them.
But most of the time this problem happens and then we have an escalating ban threat with wishes to ban cards which are not basicly overpowered but just very strong.
Because the first thing is most of the time what happend and the cards which are to strong for the tournements are allways banned as soon as possible see mental missstep or flash.
Most players like me who take fun in tournements acutally draw this out of the comeption and the way of learning and optimizing their decks until they can beat the other and will play the most effient deck in my prefered category to win.

There are other people who are don´t thinkinking it is fun to only play the most optimal choice and take fun in playing other decks then the DTBs. This people try to get their in equal games in private rounds were some cards are to broken to use.

But a banned list is nothing what should try to enhance the kitchentable but theoffical tournements for which you pay an extra sum of money to get there and therefore should help to establish a frame in which magic can played at this level without the danger of getting to hard out of control like it did in the Urza T2 times were people just rolled dices to know who would win the game instead of playing and to a certain degree in the times of flash and mental misstep.

If this is not clear and I think sicne i am writing in a foreign language this two articles shoudl help to understand what I am trying to say

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playi...in-part-1.html
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playi...in-part-1.html

Best regards Teveshszat

Ps I want a prufe for you assumtion that I not indeed uncovered all this and just don´t see a reason to tell the people.^^

[clavio]

Trained Armodon. Wooooooooooooo

[JBlaze]

Is this goal distilled from the raw aether of space and time? Did you uncover the moment of creation, ex nihilo, and find it embedded in universal first principles?

I am assuming not so you are going to have to explain why this should be the goal, and why those reasons are unrelated to people having fun.

Because "Fun" is far to subjective a concept. Brainstorm is a great example, I like Brainstorm I think it is a fun card you think it's not. There is no right and wrong it's a matter of opinion, everyone is entitled to theirs. Now if you want to talk about power level or ubiquity in high level play those are things that we can gather data to support arguments and as such have a framework the enables us to actually have a reasonable debate.

[bakofried]

Folks, as much as we spend on Magic, we have to realize it's a game. Games can be competitive, but we're not in the Olympics here; it's a trading card game. A decent estimate of fun is the viability of a wide number of decks: after all, that's why we pick Legacy and not some boring format like standard.

Which wraps around to my real point: if you enjoy the decrease of variance in the format, fuck off and play Mono-Black Devotion mirrors. I want to see more combo and more aggro, not Delver and midrange forced down my throat.

[Megadeus]

Because- and I know that this is a shocking and controversial premise for some- Magic is a game.




Is this goal distilled from the raw aether of space and time? Did you uncover the moment of creation, ex nihilo, and find it embedded in universal first principles?

I am assuming not so you are going to have to explain why this should be the goal, and why those reasons are unrelated to people having fun.

Fun is subjective. I really love LD. Recurring Wastelands, Sinkhole, Vindicate, Stone Rain (in modern) are some of my favorite things to do. That isn't "fun" to most people. So should we ban things like Sinkhole and anything that can recur a Wasteland because some people don't think it is fun?

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

Tournements are competetive it doesn´t matter if we play a card game like magic poker or L5R or if we play chess or League of Legends or Counter Strike or Streetfighter or throwing a Disk if you paticipate you want to win and you have fun in trying to achive this.

Folks, as much as we spend on Magic, we have to realize it's a game. Games can be competitive, but we're not in the Olympics here; it's a trading card game. A decent estimate of fun is the viability of a wide number of decks: after all, that's why we pick Legacy and not some boring format like standard.

And there we go.
That exactly what I mean. You are totaly right when you are only talking about what you are playing in private circles. When you going to a tournment you are wrong because each tounement is started with the intend of a competition and each player who participates acept that the he want this with all consequences like
playing to win and playing a comeptitive decks.

So i would suggest we acept that if we go to a tournement we play to win and from this on we can discuss about competetive card power levels which we can prove and not about a fun or unfun score.

Best Regards Teveshszat