[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[PartyMonster]

I was hoping as the release of m15 it closer that the artwork for void snare would grow on me.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

For whatever it's worth, TES is around 300ish tix on modo.

[wonderPreaux]

Update on where I'm at with the sidedeck for 3-color TES:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Defense Grid
2 Pithing Needle

I feel like this is a pretty balanced side deck to start from. I typically don't like to side out more than 2-3 cards in anything that isn't Miracles or Sneak and Show/Reanimator, so I've got some heavy hitting cards for everything. The Massacre might be replaced by Echoing Truth since it deals with Chalice, idk right now. Diminishing Returns is just a catch-all for discard matchups, and since Storm mirrors are prevalent, but Im unsure if thats worthwhile. I'm looking for room for Bribery, maybe another Echoing Truth. Thoughts?

[sawatarix]

why do you play defense grid over xantid swarm? because of its casting cost or is there another reason behind it?

i like pithin needle alot against decks like sneakshow and senseis devining tops in general (because they can hide and float a force of will on top of their library which is pretty annoying.

the 1-off pyroblast doesn't make any sense,cut it to make room for one of the 2 cards you mentioned (bribery/echoing truth which should be abrupt decay ! )

also cut 1 chain of vapour for 1 void snare.

[Lemnear]

why do you play defense grid over xantid swarm? because of its casting cost or is there another reason behind it?

the 1-off pyroblast doesn't make any sense,cut it to make room for one of the 2 cards you mentioned (bribery/echoing truth which should be abrupt decay ! )

also cut 1 chain of vapour for 1 void snare.

Update on where I'm at with the sidedeck for 3-color TES:

Questions?

[sawatarix]

i don't see any reason to run a 3 colour list , decay and xantid swarm are strictly better then echoing truth and defense grid in my opinion,what do you guys think?
just put the damn tropical island in the sideboard and the job is done.
you can also play tropical in the mainboard and go up to 13 lands if your metagame becomes slow.

[wonderPreaux]

A 3 Color list is more consistent, thats the allure. i dont have to worry about gemstone mines disappearing, i dont have to fetch a land that only casts sb cards and cantrips (or be worried about getting wasted off said land) and I can sit on more fetches to ignore wastelands if i really must. Moreover, this is what I'm trying to work on most, I have effectual cards for a variety of angles instead of 40% of my sb only really being utilized for about 4 matchups, my sb being entirely on-color also means i can seamlessly play out sb cards, disruption and combo cards.

I started tinkering with 3-c TES after trying some of Lemnear's sb techs, Pithing Needle was the one I liked most, and I'm running with it. Needle hits so many different things, and with Probe it may as well be a Cabal Therapy that occasionally hits lands. Defense Grid operates under the same premise as Xantid, you show it in and make their counters irrelevant, you can also bring it in for Miracles because it dodges creature removal (though it can be pierce'd). Pyroblast was originally a 2-of, but in any non-W delver matchup, I never really wanted to board out more than just a single Ponder, and against UWR Delver/Esper, where Cabal Ritual gets sided out, I can hedge with Echoing Truth/Chain with Pyroblast and render the Meddling Mage (or possible Canonists) irrelevant.

I will probably just cut out the Massacre for a second Echoing Truth for coverage against hatebear and chalice decks. In this regard, I actually disagree with the "straight upgrade" idea. Echoing Truth is fairly solid against Chalice by removing multiples, and trying to assemble a specific green source against Chalice decks or hatebear decks, which pack mana denial, seems way worse than just fetching Volc and U Sea in their End, echoing them, and then going off with your useful lands instead of a trop.

edit: chain of vapor will be void snare when it comes out on mtgo

[Bryant Cook]

New list on OP. I think my burn plan is going to change now with Void Snare and the lack of Chain of Vapor, I'm now going to sideboard as such:

-4 Gitaxian probe
+1 Tropical Island
+3 Abrupt Decay

(Also an option)
-1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Void Snare

Siding out Empty is something I'm unsure of as the match-up has now become more like Death & Taxes where we need to do something before turn two, but they could just kill us before the tokens matter. Siding in Void Snare is fine if you decide to, due to Wish for Grapeshot.

[Pelikanudo]

related to the mana base of a 3 color TES:

well the only thing I tested was +1fetch-1Gemstone leaving total 3 gemstone main and the unique reason was to have more Access to u.sea for massacre and a more fetch effect for b.s., i made 6-0 in a row vs 3 jund, but really didnt matter at all..., I felt that I needed to go back to full of gemstone...
- the way I use b.s. is not even neccessary for me to fetch most of times - a very different way I use it in ANT!
- having a +1 Massacre effect is worse than having a gemstone.

there are sometimes that you use gemstone first to ponder next to duress and lastly to win with rite of flame. this is a reason I would not play less than 4 gemstone even in a 3 color TES build with 12 lands. If I increment the number of lands to 13 maybe I would, but really gemstone for me is a very good card in the deck, all I can say.

About Void Snare and the Side:

I really want to include Void Snare in the side and after lot of thinking I will expose the slot - this is my side:

SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [RS] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [MM] Bribery
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress - this was before a IoK. maybe with the raise of burn decks I will let it - dont think so.

I wanted to take out or 1 duress or 1 pyro -
really the duress effect dont want to take out as this is my main plan vs S&T and Reanimator variants, was effective the other day vs reanimator.
pyro which is a card I really dont side as a 1 of vs miracles as much - is really versatile vs RUG, Patriot, Blade, control in general or even a OmniShow decks - deck I really don't face. 2 is a correct number.
Dimnishisng and Bribery are cards I'm happy with - they in conjuntion makes b.w. a powerfull threat vs diff. decks, sure at least bribery will leave the side if i.t. is put in side - this by the moment won't happen.
So having a 3rd WinCond in the name of Bribery and having Massacre as creature destroyer - grapeshot is going to be the card to put into the bin. lately I just use EtW or Tendrils or Bribery to win match ups and sometimes grapeshot to take out some gaddog teeg but is also handled by v.snare. - even I just hate to side g.s. vs miracles or blade because of Meddling mage, Pyro is just better! and for canonist Massacre is just also better.

I would like to know opinions related to this change - some will blame me for taking out grapeshot - these are my arguments.

Related to the burn match up:
well the other day I faced 2 - I'm really happy to see a burn player, I really don't mind if they play eidolon or not - I usually face the game as vs D&T.- maybe its ime to go back to 3rd c.m.4th i.t. main! joke.
I think I just side nothing usually on 2nd an 3rd match ups...now maybe +1tropical,+1t.seize=-2duress I really dont want to take out EtW, as usually wins me also games OtP.
Apart I need to say: sure G.P deals damage and is pyroblast target, but I dont think these are enough reasons to take them out vs a Burn Deck. I want to say that in some ocasións D.R. gave me the victory vs a Burn player.

Apart, If someone can answer to this:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post821601

this will make me very very happy. thanks.

[wonderPreaux]

related to the mana base of a 3 color TES:

well the only thing I tested was +1fetch-1Gemstone leaving total 3 gemstone main and the unique reason was to have more Access to u.sea for massacre and a more fetch effect for b.s., i made 6-0 in a row vs 3 jund, but really didnt matter at all..., I felt that I needed to go back to full of gemstone...
- the way I use b.s. is not even neccessary for me to fetch most of times - a very different way I use it in ANT!
- having a +1 Massacre effect is worse than having a gemstone.

there are sometimes that you use gemstone first to ponder next to duress and lastly to win with rite of flame. this is a reason I would not play less than 4 gemstone even in a 3 color TES build with 12 lands. If I increment the number of lands to 13 maybe I would, but really gemstone for me is a very good card in the deck, all I can say.

I'm in a weird place with Gemstone Mine when it comes to a 3C base, I hate how it burns out in control matchups because I so often need to wear the opponent down with many Wishes, cantrips etc. but when going off asap, against D&T or Elves for instance, you can't really afford to wait on assembling 2 separate duals. I originally started testing with 3 Mines in 13 lands, and now I'm at 0 of 12, so I guess I'll try them again, see what happens, might have just been a bad luck string of control matchups. My first instinct is that 3 is the magic number for Gemstone Mine in a 3C build, because I have no Green/White cards to feel pressure to have flexible mana for, and I can reduce openings with multiple Gemstones when I'm in control matchups.

I do think your point about Grapeshot is interesting, but there are matchups where I could see myself wanting Grapeshot over the coverage of Massacre+Void Snare. If we're to consider dropping Grapeshot it would be because the value of that freed up slot is worth more than the ability to have a win condition in the sb for matches where we maindeck Tendrils, as well as the ability to bolt opponents when we're racing with Goblins. Since those do seem like corner cases, if there is a pressing need for a slot, it could be a worthwhile move.

[strom]

Here is a tricky one for you: If your meta is full of Death and Taxes and Maverick but also full of burn (and the rest is something blue-based) how would you change manindeck and sideboard taking Bryant's current list from the op as a starting point.

My main concern are the MD Duress. With so much DnT going on, I would rather have Thoughtseizes instead to have an additional out to get rid of their hatebears. On the other hand there are the burn decks, where shocking oneself is far from ideal, although Burn players seem to try Eidolon maindeck nowadays. Maybe a split of Duress and TS will do the trick? FoW ist still a conteder so I dont want to go "all in" and play Inqusition instead.

Concerning the sideboard, I might cut Xantid Swarm because only a few SnT decks are played here. Maybe I should pack an extra Massacre to have one as a wish target and one in the main for game 2.


What do you think?

[Lemnear]

Here is a tricky one for you: If your meta is full of Death and Taxes and Maverick but also full of burn (and the rest is something blue-based) how would you change manindeck and sideboard taking Bryant's current list from the op as a starting point.

My main concern are the MD Duress. With so much DnT going on, I would rather have Thoughtseizes instead to have an additional out to get rid of their hatebears. On the other hand there are the burn decks, where shocking oneself is far from ideal, although Burn players seem to try Eidolon maindeck nowadays. Maybe a split of Duress and TS will do the trick? FoW ist still a conteder so I dont want to go "all in" and play Inqusition instead.

Concerning the sideboard, I might cut Xantid Swarm because only a few SnT decks are played here. Maybe I should pack an extra Massacre to have one as a wish target and one in the main for game 2.


What do you think?

I think that you missed the fact that from our side of the field D&T requires the same strategic approach as Burn.dec and that is the Belcher-Mode. It doesn't matter if it's Canonist + Thalia or Eidolon + Pillar coming down turn 2 and following. It doesn't matter if you discard a Thalia or an Eidolon if they are about to topdeck/drop a Canonist or a Pillar just because you wasted a card, a mana and a turn for discarding. I witnessed enough situations to guaran-damn-tee that relying on discard against D&T is a loosing trait.

Flipping Massacre to Ad Nauseam sounds tech.

[Bahamuth]

I would run 2 Ad Nauseam, 4 Infernal Tutor 3 Wish and no Cabal Ritual in that meta, but I'll probably get burned into the ground for suggesting that.

[Lemnear]

I would run 2 Ad Nauseam, 4 Infernal Tutor 3 Wish and no Cabal Ritual in that meta, but I'll probably get burned into the ground for suggesting that.

I asume the second Ad Nauseam isn't replacing the EtW and you aim at naturally drawing AN's rather than wishes? The only thing that irks me is that I want to flip Wish to AN 99% of the time as the cheapest and easiest access to our winconditions. Could you elaborate?

[Bahamuth]

I asume the second Ad Nauseam isn't replacing the EtW and you aim at naturally drawing AN's rather than wishes? The only thing that irks me is that I want to flip Wish to AN 99% of the time as the cheapest and easiest access to our winconditions. Could you elaborate?

No I don't replace the EtW. Compared to the openings post, it would be:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Burning Wish
+1 Chrome Mox
+1 Ad Nauseam
+1 Infernal Tutor
(and some different lands configuration)


The reasoning here is that I just want to win as fast as I can. To achieve that goal, I don't want to draw Wishes and I do definitely want to draw Ad Nauseam. I also hate drawing slower hands with only Burning Wish since they actually don't really do anything. In general I'm kind of always looking for excuses to cut Wishes from the deck, though I don't think you can go below 3.

As you mention, it obviously makes Ad Nauseam worse. All I can say about that, is that it's not been an issue for me (I ran 2 Ad Nauseam for a pretty long time in lists with City of Brass). It's extremely difficult to quantify how much worse Ad Nauseam becomes by changing the deck, perhaps until someone takes the time to write some code that could simulate resolving Ad Nauseam.

[Asthereal]

Here is a tricky one for you: If your meta is full of Death and Taxes and Maverick but also full of burn (and the rest is something blue-based) how would you change manindeck and sideboard taking Bryant's current list from the op as a starting point.

My main concern are the MD Duress. With so much DnT going on, I would rather have Thoughtseizes instead to have an additional out to get rid of their hatebears. On the other hand there are the burn decks, where shocking oneself is far from ideal, although Burn players seem to try Eidolon maindeck nowadays. Maybe a split of Duress and TS will do the trick? FoW ist still a conteder so I dont want to go "all in" and play Inqusition instead.

Concerning the sideboard, I might cut Xantid Swarm because only a few SnT decks are played here. Maybe I should pack an extra Massacre to have one as a wish target and one in the main for game 2.


What do you think?

In such a meta, I would actually consider to drop the Probes.
Information isn't as important against D&T, Maverick and Burn, and the life loss could become an issue.
Also, Probes make mulligan decisions harder, which in turn may lower your odds to go off turn 1-2.

But anyway, in the current list you can always play 4x Therapy, 2x Duress, 1x Thoughtseize.
The one-of Seize shouldn't kill you, and Duresses get sided out for bounce or removal anyway.

[Kael]

In such a meta, I would actually consider to drop the Probes.
Information isn't as important against D&T, Maverick and Burn, and the life loss could become an issue.
Also, Probes make mulligan decisions harder, which in turn may lower your odds to go off turn 1-2.

But anyway, in the current list you can always play 4x Therapy, 2x Duress, 1x Thoughtseize.
The one-of Seize shouldn't kill you, and Duresses get sided out for bounce or removal anyway.

The problem with that I see is that every postboard Therapy is a small gamble, since Burn often runs both Eidolon and Pillar these days, and DnT runs Thalia + Canonist. That, combined with Duress missing Eidolon/Canonist/Thalia, makes your protection pretty unreliable. Increases your chances of going off turns 1-2 perhaps, but it makes your slower hands extremely risky.

[Asthereal]

The problem with that I see is that every postboard Therapy is a small gamble, since Burn often runs both Eidolon and Pillar these days, and DnT runs Thalia + Canonist. That, combined with Duress missing Eidolon/Canonist/Thalia, makes your protection pretty unreliable. Increases your chances of going off turns 1-2 perhaps, but it makes your slower hands extremely risky.

Oh don't worry. If I were to ever drop Probe, Therapies would of course be replaced as well.
Cabal Therapy is nowhere near playable without Probes. Maybe a one-of as Wish target could work, but that's about it.

But seriously, against hatebear.dec you have two options: 1. Win FAST. 2. Have flexible protection. Discard isn't flexible protection. The bear that slips through will be the end of you. Lem has pointed this out often enough. You need a proper way of getting rid of the bear. In my opinion, Chain of Vapor is still a very viable card here. Make sure you have a couple of those on side in a meta like the one descibed above.

[Lemnear]

The problem with that I see is that every postboard Therapy is a small gamble, since Burn often runs both Eidolon and Pillar these days, and DnT runs Thalia + Canonist. That, combined with Duress missing Eidolon/Canonist/Thalia, makes your protection pretty unreliable. Increases your chances of going off turns 1-2 perhaps, but it makes your slower hands extremely risky.

In such a meta, I would actually consider to drop the Probes.
Information isn't as important against D&T, Maverick and Burn, and the life loss could become an issue.
Also, Probes make mulligan decisions harder, which in turn may lower your odds to go off turn 1-2.

But anyway, in the current list you can always play 4x Therapy, 2x Duress, 1x Thoughtseize.
The one-of Seize shouldn't kill you, and Duresses get sided out for bounce or removal anyway.

Once more: I have no fucking clue why you guys are so focussed on discard to battle Burn.dec and Death & Taxes. Discussing options to make slow hands keepable or which discard is the best for taking hatebears and still losing to topdecked ones is totally off. If you want to board something against Thalia, Canonist, Eidolon and shit, it should be bounce in place of the Duresses.

I disagree with the Probe cutting or boarding out as the information might me less relevant against the matchups in question but they sure matter for the mana density in the deck and for the free stormcount. As pointed out many times in this very thread, being able to drop goblins before hatebears come down, is TES' primary and exclusive strategic weapon within the storm-supertype and 2 life is a reasonable cost for an extra bunch of red men.

"Dropping Probes" is far beyond a meta call. It turns the whole deck concept and card choices like Cabal Therapy ad absurdum. Not even ANT would drop the Probes and the deck is even slower (tbh they run probes not for EtW + Therapy but for fast Thres.hold + Therapy)


Edit: got ninja'd by Asthereal. Looks like he's up for another ninja-battle xD

[Pelikanudo]

I would run 2 Ad Nauseam, 4 Infernal Tutor 3 Wish and no Cabal Ritual in that meta, but I'll probably get burned into the ground for suggesting that.

I also prefer to play 4 I.T. and 3 B.W. than 4 B.W. 3 I.T.! good to hear that!
my configuration plays full of burning - i.tutor and 1 A.N.