If you're new to the deck, play a stock list. Splitting halves on a ddft list and menendian's lab man list is not a good plan. Lots of dead/non-synergistic cards.
Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
Fully agree. Very good advice.
I'm about to say the same thing in quite a few more words.
I understand why you would want to have so many answers, but this deck is so powerful on its own that you shouldn't need to worry about trying to get an edge over opponents by confusing them with transformational sideboards--especially since your opponent has the opportunity to look through your deck anytime you cast Doomsday and your deck configuration screams that you have a Tendrils somewhere in your 75 because you're playing a bunch of cards that don't make sense in your maindeck otherwise. The way this deck works, you should be able to play around your opponent's answers without having to commit so entirely to two completely separate plans that have little synergy with each other. For instance, you don't have a good reason to side in Tendrils at all when Ideas Unbound and one LED give you a pile that is unaffected by the graveyard and Chromatic Sphere gives you the ability to dodge creature removal entirely, so Tendrils looks like a wasted card in your sideboard and the extra copies of LED look really weird in your mainboard.
I asked you the question about your three-of cards because all of them are so strong that you should be running full sets of them, but they're also all so anti-synergistic that you shouldn't be playing half of them in the same deck with each other. First off, the way I've seen it described is that committing to Maniac is meant to leverage the power of blue permission, while you commit to Tendrils to get the power of LED. This is because blue permission and LED shouldn't go into the same deck without a compelling reason, and I don't think you've offered one. Your maindeck is basically a bad version of the Laboratory Maniac deck playing LEDs that don't do much, Infernal Tutors that do even less, and not enough cards that actually protect a Maniac in your pile. If you switch to the Tendrils deck from the sideboard, you're playing a neutered version of DDFT with less powerful draws in a reduced number of LED, Infernal Tutor as a horrible draw because you don't play enough LED nor do you play the types the spells to facilitate actually casting ten spells, and you have only two protection spells that are actually capable of forcing a Tendrils through because counterspells can't be held up past the point when you use an LED.
The main thing that strikes me is that Infernal Tutor is especially bad here. Your deck is playing too many cards that you can't easily empty from your hand (Laboratory Maniac, and all of your blue permission) and you're not playing enough fast mana (not to mention not enough LED) to make it work well too often. You have to jump through too many hoops to make Infernal Tutor good, and I don't think you can build your deck in a way that makes this card good while you are playing the Maniac combo. Your deck is pulling itself in so many different directions that it seems so mediocre at doing any of the things that it wants to do that I can't see the trade-off in versatility being worth it. I think that actually trying to build the kind of deck you want to make basically requires Burning Wish to tie everything together. If you don't want to play Burning Wish (which is understandable), I think you need to focus more on one plan. You can build the Tendrils deck to work well with Infernal Tutor (the original lists looked more like ANT with Ill-Gotten Gains). As the Maniac deck alone, I can understand feeling like 4 Doomsday isn't enough, but Infernal Tutor is just not an effective answer. I'd probably play Lim-Dul's Vault or something similar--it's also not a great card, but it requires less work to make it actually find Doomsday.
I know you said you wanted to win this turn... but as an alternative, you can win easily with a pass the turn Time Spiral pile as well. Your pile would be:
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Burning Wish
Burning Wish
pass the turn, and on your next main phase, use your Tundra to cast Silence eliminating whatever interaction they drew (unless it was something like Thalia or the like), and then it's just a normal Time Spiral pile from there. (IU, LED, LED, flip top, Crack LED's for RRRUUU, Burning Wish -> Time Spiral, LED, LED, SDT, Burning Wish -> Tendrils).
Just another option anyway if for whatever reason a scenario comes up where you can't use Lab Maniac in this case (since it is clearly better to win right now as you don't give them a chance to interact).
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Thank you all for the feedback. Time to do some much needed deliberation.
The Doomsday Codex
We're catching bullets in our teeth,
Its hard to do but they're so sweet.
And if they take a couple out,
We try to work things out.....
Meow.
Maybe a pile like this should win on the spot
TOP
ideas
led
probe
probe
labman
BOTTOM
- tap top to draw ideas
- cast ideas with two lands of your choice and draw top, led and probe
- cast top with the remaining land and led
- cast probe and in response crack led for UUU, draw the second probe
- cast the second probe to draw labman and cast him with the mana floating
- tap top to win the game
However I'm angry at you nevilshute, you left the food chain thread now that it's become my weapon of choice!!!!!
Just joking ^_^ , it's nice to see you here and I know that I'll soon have to play this deck more seriously because I feel it's a beast and I love the puzzle you can come up with.
Ignorance is strength
That's the pile that would have won it. Thanks. GoboLord already beat you to it though. Thanks anywaysI couldn't for the life of me work it out. Nice to have people chiming in!
Sorry about being a bit awol in the Food Chain thread. I'm still playing it, just not that regularily. Believe me, I still love it, and I'm so happy it had something of a breakthrough this year. Keep it at. I still browse the thread weekly
You can follow me on Twitter at: www.twitter.com/MartinFSNielsen
I was browsing the thread from my smartphone and kinda missed Gobolord's post... so lame on my part: sorry Gobo!!! ^_^'''That's the pile that would have won it. Thanks. GoboLord already beat you to it though. Thanks anyways
Sorry about being a bit awol in the Food Chain thread. I'm still playing it, just not that regularily. Believe me, I still love it, and I'm so happy it had something of a breakthrough this year. Keep it at. I still browse the thread weekly
Don't worry, we'll "see" each other in one of these threads, although during this summer in my shop there will be almost modern tournaments.
Ignorance is strength
Here's a short puzzle that came up in yesterday's legacy tournament. I was playing this list (sorry, no lab maniac for you fans of that card):
MD:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Flusterstorm
1 Doomsday
1 Time Spiral
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 Infernal Contract
1 Cabal Therapy
Game 2 vs Werewolf Stompy (I lost game 1):
SB as follows:
-1 Duress
+1 Tendrils of Agony
We played the game to this point:
My Hand: Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Gitaxian Probe, Lotus Petal, Cabal Therapy, Tendrils of Agony
My hand: Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Cabal Therapy, Tendrils of Agony
My Board: Scalding Tarn (can only tap for red), Swamp, Volcanic Island (can only tap for red) (all untapped)
His Board: Blood Moon, Phyrexian Revoker (naming Lion's Eye Diamond), Phyrexian Revoker (naming Sensei's Divining Top), Ancient Tomb (tapped).
Life Totals: 19 (me) vs 18 (him)
To me, the most obvious pile ends up one storm short, and is as follows:
Dark Ritual (1) -> Doomsday (2) building:
top-Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual-bottom
Probe (3) -> Lotus Petal (4) -> Brainstorm (using Petal) (5) (put back dark ritual and cabal therapy) -> Lotus Petal (6) -> Dark Ritual (7) -> Tendrils of Agony (8).
top-Probe, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual-bottom
Lotus Petal (3), Brainstorm (using Petal) (4) (put back cabal therpy, lotus petal, in that order), Probe (5), Lotus Petal (6), Dark Ritual (7), Tendrils of Agony (8).
One storm short. So is there a pile that can win the game here?
EDIT: See my below post for an explanation of why the first post was incorrect.
Last edited by Kidbails; 07-25-2014 at 12:46 AM.
The EPIC Storm
Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils
Play Dark Ritual (1) -> Doomsday (2).
You can build the pile:
TOP
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Gitaxian Probe
Random Card
BOTTOM
Play Probe (3) drawing Brainstorm
Play Lotus Petal (4) -> Brainstorm (5) drawing Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe. Put Back Cabal Therapy and Dark Ritual or Tendrils on top.
Play Probe (6) drawing Dark Ritual or Tendrils
Play Lotus Petal (7) -> Dark Ritual (8) -> Tendrils (9) for lethal.
So you basically just need to add that Probe to your pile. ;)
This should work:
(Top)probe, brainstorm, petal, dark rit, blank(bottom.
Dark rit(1), doomsday(2), probe drawing probe (3), probe drawing brainstorm (4), petal (5), cast brainstorm (6) drawing petal, dark rit, blank, put back blank and therapy. Petal (7), dark rit (8) tendrs (9 - lethal)
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Well those are both definitively better than my pile.
I was thinking about adding a probe to get one deeper into my pile, but I somehow kept thinking that I would still be one storm short. Not sure how I came to that conclusion.
EDIT: I know how. I didn't have the probe in my hand. I had the brainstorm in my hand, I just failed to recall it when writing the above post. At this point, I think I probably built the pile:
top-Probe, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual-bottom
so you instead of the first sequence in the post, it's more likely that it's: Petal (3), BS (4) (putting back cabal therpy and lotus petal), Probe (5), Lotus Petal (6), Dark Ritual (7), Tendrils of Agony (8). Which is still one storm short.
I recall this now because I remember there was a specific reason where I had to cast a brainstorm before I could cast a probe, meaning that brainstorm was most likely in my hand, unless I really screwed up (which is definitely possible). My bad
The EPIC Storm
Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils
This is still with sleep in my eyes so bear with me. But if the probe was a brainstorm how about this pile:Well those are both definitively better than my pile.
I was thinking about adding a probe to get one deeper into my pile, but I somehow kept thinking that I would still be one storm short. Not sure how I came to that conclusion.
EDIT: I know how. I didn't have the probe in my hand. I had the brainstorm in my hand, I just failed to recall it when writing the above post. At this point, I think I probably built the pile:
top-Probe, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual-bottom
so you instead of the first sequence in the post, it's more likely that it's: Petal (3), BS (4) (putting back cabal therpy and lotus petal), Probe (5), Lotus Petal (6), Dark Ritual (7), Tendrils of Agony (8). Which is still one storm short.
I recall this now because I remember there was a specific reason where I had to cast a brainstorm before I could cast a probe, meaning that brainstorm was most likely in my hand, unless I really screwed up (which is definitely possible). My bad
(Top)ideas unbound, petal, petal, probe, dark rit(bottom).
Line: petal(3), brainstorm (4), drawing petal, petal, iu, putting back tendrils and therapy. Petal (5), petal(6), iu (7) draw tendrils, therapy, probe. Cast probe (8) draw dark rit, dark rit (9), tendrils (10)
You can follow me on Twitter at: www.twitter.com/MartinFSNielsen
This isn't possible because there is no B left to cast Dark Ritual then.
If you played Rain of Filth which you somehow don't you could go:
TOP
Burning Wish (Infernal Contract)
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Swamp
Rain of Filth
BOTTOM
storm count would be 10 then.
Maybe exchange Cabal Ritual for Rain of Filth? :D
Wow, yeah, missed the need for B. That's a pretty sweet pile (with RoF)
You can follow me on Twitter at: www.twitter.com/MartinFSNielsen
Yea, it probably should be a rain of filth (especially seeing that). That is a sweet pile and definitely gets the job done.
The EPIC Storm
Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils
So I've been testing Counterbalance as protection in DDFT. During a test game yesterday against burn, this situation came up, and I couldn't figure out a pile to stay protected and go for the kill:
List:
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Rain of Filth
2x Lotus Petal
3x Doomsday
3x Burning Wish
2x Duress
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Counterbalance
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ideas Unbound
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Tropical Island
2x Island
2x Swamp
--SB--
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Doomsday
1x Time Spiral
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Void Snare (wished for and used)
1x Meltdown
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Massacre
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Cabal Therapy
My Board: Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, Badlands, Island, Island (tapped to spin top in the upkeep); Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top
My Hand: Ponder, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Burning Wish, Cabal Therapy
Life: 10
His Board: Mountain x3
His Life: 18
I cabal therapy (storm 1) him, naming fireblast and hit all four. I then see: 1x Price of Progress, 1x Flame Rift. He couldn't cast these as he knows I have a two drop on the top of my deck.
Is there a pile that can win from here? Things to consider: a two drop needs to remain on top for the entirety of the storming process, in order to protect us from the two drops in his hand. It's possible to try and next-level him by not having a two drop on the top and hoping that he doesn't realize this, but I don't like this line.
The EPIC Storm
Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils
Why not going for bw into therapy. And then casting cabal. If he pops u just discard rift snd counters with balance pop.
Next turn his only out is drawing anothrr pop. Cause you can negate eidolon and rift. Then combo on your turn. Cause at 10 life if he draws a bolt u still survive after dday.
Also whats on your top of library apart from the cc2.
I think best plan is to therapy. He cant draw a 5th fireast.
I thought about this, but if I can win here, then it's obviously better. Plus it's just an interesting situation.
The EPIC Storm
Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils
Man, gotta love this riddles.
What i would have done was this:
Tap U.Sea and Cast Cabal Therapy, wait for response of opponent. Then either he respons with Price of Progress or not.
When he PoP,s, respond with CB trigger @ 2 and name Flame Rift or
Just name PoP.
Then tap Badlands, cast Dark Ritual, cast Doomsday. Library:
1. Tropical Island
2. Ideas Unbound
3. Rain of Filth
4. Lotus Petal
5. Lotus Petal
then tap Volc Island, cast Ponder, look at top 3, do nothing and draw Trop and play it.
Flip SDT for IU and cast it with the Trop and the remaining Island to draw SDT, Rain of Filth and 1 Petal.
Cast and sac Petal for (B) and cast Rain of Filth. Sac all lands for 6x(B).
Cast SDT and flip it for the remaining Petal. 5x(B)
Cast Petal and sac Petal for red, then cast Burning Wish for Tendrills. 4x(B) and storm 10.
Cast Tendrills and win now.
Edit: offcourse thinking this thru took me 5 minutes and a cup of coffee. Can't imagine playing this at a tournament, but i gotta try it some time.
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