[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[wonderPreaux]

Hi everyone, had an interesting opener that I wanted some thoughts on. I was on the play, against an unknown opponent:



Would you keep this hand? Any ritual lets you go off turn 2 (unprotected), Brainstorm can open up some shenanigans with Ad Nauseam, LED, and a cantrip, but on the surface this hand does a whole lot of nothing, especially turn 1. Given that Chrome Mox can't even accel you into anything turn and it restricts my use of Duress, this seems like a mull in hindsight. I'm wondering what you all think of it, though (FWIW, the opponent turned out to be on lands and so I won anyway because it was game 1 *shrug*).

[Lemnear]

Hi everyone, had an interesting opener that I wanted some thoughts on. I was on the play, against an unknown opponent:



Would you keep this hand? Any ritual lets you go off turn 2 (unprotected), Brainstorm can open up some shenanigans with Ad Nauseam, LED, and a cantrip, but on the surface this hand does a whole lot of nothing, especially turn 1. Given that Chrome Mox can't even accel you into anything turn and it restricts my use of Duress, this seems like a mull in hindsight. I'm wondering what you all think of it, though (FWIW, the opponent turned out to be on lands and so I won anyway because it was game 1 *shrug*).

Well, it's a virtual mulligan to 5 but you have 3 IMS, protection and Ad Nauseam itself with LED being able to pay for Spell Pierce. Near guaranteed turn 3 combo. Clear keeper.

[Asthereal]

Hi everyone, had an interesting opener that I wanted some thoughts on. I was on the play, against an unknown opponent:



Would you keep this hand? Any ritual lets you go off turn 2 (unprotected), Brainstorm can open up some shenanigans with Ad Nauseam, LED, and a cantrip, but on the surface this hand does a whole lot of nothing, especially turn 1. Given that Chrome Mox can't even accel you into anything turn and it restricts my use of Duress, this seems like a mull in hindsight. I'm wondering what you all think of it, though (FWIW, the opponent turned out to be on lands and so I won anyway because it was game 1 *shrug*).

What cards make this hand work? Analysis of our first draw:

Good:
Brainstorm probably fixes it. Small chance that would brick. (4)
Ritual makes you go off T2. (4)
Tutor or Wish means an Empty for 10 guys T2. (7) (/15)

Meh:
Empty itself gives 8 dudes T2. (~1)
Ponder is a bit of a gamble but should be good to set up a turn 3. (~4)
Cabal Therapy could be okay, buy lots of time. (~4) (/~9)

Bad:
LED and Petal won't work yet, but may work after the second draw. (-6)
Rite doens't seem to add anything here either. (-4)
Mox would suck big time (-2)
Lands are useless now. (-11)
Duress would probably not be good, unless against Miracles. (-2) (/-25)

Doesn't count:
Probe (4)

So in a deck of 49 cards (so minus the Probes), we have:
Good: 15 (31%)
Meh: 9 (18%)
Bad: 25 (51%)

Seems we should mull this? Funny that Lem calls it a clear keeper.

[mario91234]

Good feedback. Much appreciated.

[Megadeus]

I think I'd keep it,though it would definitely feel like a loose keep

[Bryant Cook]

I'd snap keep that. Do you honestly expect a better mulligan? You don't have to combo off on the next turn either. A turn three is fine with this grip.

[Megadeus]

True. If on the draw, a thoughtseize can fuck up yourday, but on the play it seems fine

[Bryant Cook]

True. If on the draw, a thoughtseize can fuck up yourday, but on the play it seems fine

Sure. Because all of the best decks in legacy play four Thoughtseize.

<sarcasm>I think a resolved Counterbalance or Nullrod might also beat this hand, might as well mulligan. They hid those cards in response to your Duress.</sarcasm>

EDIT: Apparently I need to start wrapping things in sarcasm tags.

[wonderPreaux]

Sure. Because all of the best decks in legacy play four Thoughtseize.

I think a resolved Counterbalance or Nullrod might also beat this hand, might as well mulligan. They hid those cards in response to your Duress.

Nullrod wouldn't really be an issue since it's game 1. I'd prolly fold to a Thalia/Eidolon though.

[Lemnear]

What cards make this hand work? Analysis of our first draw:

Good:
Brainstorm probably fixes it. Small chance that would brick. (4)
Ritual makes you go off T2. (4)
Tutor or Wish means an Empty for 10 guys T2. (7) (/15)

Meh:
Empty itself gives 8 dudes T2. (~1)
Ponder is a bit of a gamble but should be good to set up a turn 3. (~4)
Cabal Therapy could be okay, buy lots of time. (~4) (/~9)

Bad:
LED and Petal won't work yet, but may work after the second draw. (-6)
Rite doens't seem to add anything here either. (-4)
Mox would suck big time (-2)
Lands are useless now. (-11)
Duress would probably not be good, unless against Miracles. (-2) (/-25)

Doesn't count:
Probe (4)

So in a deck of 49 cards (so minus the Probes), we have:
Good: 15 (31%)
Meh: 9 (18%)
Bad: 25 (51%)

Seems we should mull this? Funny that Lem calls it a clear keeper.

I fear you miss the bigger picture here:

1) How good do you expect your mulligan to be?
2) Why shouldn't a turn 3 combo be fine too?

Especially with an eye on the turn 3 combo, your whole analysis is wrong as RoF, Lands, Petals and Ponder are suddenly all valid draws while more discard buys you plenty of time in most cases. The only "dead" draws for this hand are 2 moxen and 3 LEDs, so your chance of being able to combo in turn 3 (opponents interaction aside) is >80%

[Tengo_Hambre]

Hi All,

So i'm pretty new to legacy but grabbed this deck and have been doing reasonably well in my brief experience with it. I'm curious though if any of you have ever tried running xantid's in the main? I'm currently trying 2 and have been pretty pleased. There are obviously matchups where they are amazing, and some where they are horrendous like elves and goblins, but i've actually found them to be reasonably good against most delver variants despite the OP's claim that they shouldn't be used in those matchups. Now I realize that i have a mere fraction of his experience and so i'm asking to see if anyone else has tried this? They can chump in a pinch, sacrifice to therapy, and frankly i'm usually pretty ok with them eating a bolt as that's another turn to find action usually. and if they don't have the bolt, i attack them next turn and go off with impunity. I guess it's like having silence that can sac to flashback therapy too.

My first tournament with the deck was starcity dallas earlier this year where i got off to a 5-1 start but stumbled to a 5-4 finish. I had 4 duress, 1 thoughtseize 1 therapy at the time due to limited cards and found several occasions where my duress would reveal multiple relevant counters and i would only be able to take one of them.

My second tournament i tried playing with 4 therapy and 2 swarm to a 3rd/4th place finish in a 70 person side event at GP minneapolis and was pretty pleased with the swarms; where therapy couldn't take care of relevant interaction, swarm could usually clean up the rest...

So starcity is returning to dallas this weekend and i'm on 4 therapy, 2 swarm and 1 duress (finally saw reason and cut the 4th chrome mox for a duress) unless someone can talk me out of it. what are your thoughts?

[Bryant Cook]

Took down a local last night dropping two games with an overall record of 5-0-1. Game three of the finals versus Death & Taxes I resolved an Ad Nauseam from 8 life on his end step by tapping five lands (six total in play), untapping and winning. The better Ad Nauseams have been really nice. I did lose game two to a situation to where if I had Massacre in my sideboard I could've won, but I'd rather have more diverse cards for other match-ups as well. The situation was that he had Mother + Cannonist, I actually had Decay + Chain in my hand and was planning on winning on my turn when he played Thalia. Can't win them all! I still wouldn't change anything.

[Vandalize]

Hi All,

So i'm pretty new to legacy but grabbed this deck and have been doing reasonably well in my brief experience with it. I'm curious though if any of you have ever tried running xantid's in the main? I'm currently trying 2 and have been pretty pleased. There are obviously matchups where they are amazing, and some where they are horrendous like elves and goblins, but i've actually found them to be reasonably good against most delver variants despite the OP's claim that they shouldn't be used in those matchups. Now I realize that i have a mere fraction of his experience and so i'm asking to see if anyone else has tried this? They can chump in a pinch, sacrifice to therapy, and frankly i'm usually pretty ok with them eating a bolt as that's another turn to find action usually. and if they don't have the bolt, i attack them next turn and go off with impunity. I guess it's like having silence that can sac to flashback therapy too.

My first tournament with the deck was starcity dallas earlier this year where i got off to a 5-1 start but stumbled to a 5-4 finish. I had 4 duress, 1 thoughtseize 1 therapy at the time due to limited cards and found several occasions where my duress would reveal multiple relevant counters and i would only be able to take one of them.

My second tournament i tried playing with 4 therapy and 2 swarm to a 3rd/4th place finish in a 70 person side event at GP minneapolis and was pretty pleased with the swarms; where therapy couldn't take care of relevant interaction, swarm could usually clean up the rest...

So starcity is returning to dallas this weekend and i'm on 4 therapy, 2 swarm and 1 duress (finally saw reason and cut the 4th chrome mox for a duress) unless someone can talk me out of it. what are your thoughts?

The main problem with Xantid Swarm maindeck is that 4 Swords to Plowshares, that were otherwise useless, suddenly become relevant. Eating a Bolt or Abrupt Decay is usually fine.

Xantid Swarm is especially nice in the sideboard because people usually board out spot removal against T.E.S, making it wonderful protection postboard. It's also pretty useful against decks that tend to play few to no removal (aka Show and Tell, Merfolks, Elves).

[Lemnear]

Hi All,

So i'm pretty new to legacy but grabbed this deck and have been doing reasonably well in my brief experience with it. I'm curious though if any of you have ever tried running xantid's in the main? I'm currently trying 2 and have been pretty pleased. There are obviously matchups where they are amazing, and some where they are horrendous like elves and goblins, but i've actually found them to be reasonably good against most delver variants despite the OP's claim that they shouldn't be used in those matchups. Now I realize that i have a mere fraction of his experience and so i'm asking to see if anyone else has tried this? They can chump in a pinch, sacrifice to therapy, and frankly i'm usually pretty ok with them eating a bolt as that's another turn to find action usually. and if they don't have the bolt, i attack them next turn and go off with impunity. I guess it's like having silence that can sac to flashback therapy too.

So you really want to fetch your Tropical Island against Delver as your first land to drop Xantid Swarms, turning on their remocal, just to realize that you need black and red mana aka two more initial mana sources to win? Fine plan, because mana supply was NEVER an issue against Tempo decks, right? /sarcasm

It's a Silence that needs to attack (reads: you have to pass the turn) AND is vulnerable to everything from Plowshares to Bolts. Xantids have their place in fighting decks what have massive non-creature counters, no removal at all and/or are slower control matchups. Delver is the complete opposite and the plan is flawed not only because of the Xantid Swarm itself and opponents possible ways to interact with it, but because you mess with your own manabase in a matchup which is all about the mana.

[itrytostorm]

Took down a local last night dropping two games with an overall record of 5-0-1. Game three of the finals versus Death & Taxes I resolved an Ad Nauseam from 8 life on his end step by tapping five lands (six total in play), untapping and winning. The better Ad Nauseams have been really nice. I did lose game two to a situation to where if I had Massacre in my sideboard I could've won, but I'd rather have more diverse cards for other match-ups as well. The situation was that he had Mother + Cannonist, I actually had Decay + Chain in my hand and was planning on winning on my turn when he played Thalia. Can't win them all! I still wouldn't change anything.

Congrats on doing well with the deck. I was the elves player you beat in the side event before you won the the real side event for the MMA set. Like the changes to the list and I just have to get back to correctly SB'ing after taking 8 months off from it

[JUNI0R]

Has anybody tried out defense grid instead of xantid swarm recently, if so what are your opinions?

I've been struggling against counter-top, I recently moved to the 2 pithing needle, 2 abrupt decay sideboard for them but I am wanting a little more. Maybe I'm attacking the matchup from the wrong angle.

I thought defense grid may work better than xantid swarm as you can bring it in against control decks that may leave in some creature removal. It is a turn slower than xantid swarm but I'm usually not going off turn 2 against control decks and you don't have to worry about attacking or keeping a 0/1 alive.

From what I was able to find, defense grid was used in an early version of the deck but has long since been dropped.

[wonderPreaux]

Has anybody tried out defense grid instead of xantid swarm recently, if so what are your opinions?

I've been struggling against counter-top, I recently moved to the 2 pithing needle, 2 abrupt decay sideboard for them but I am wanting a little more. Maybe I'm attacking the matchup from the wrong angle.

I thought defense grid may work better than xantid swarm as you can bring it in against control decks that may leave in some creature removal. It is a turn slower than xantid swarm but I'm usually not going off turn 2 against control decks and you don't have to worry about attacking or keeping a 0/1 alive.

From what I was able to find, defense grid was used in an early version of the deck but has long since been dropped.

Defense Grid costing 2 means that even on the play it can get Spell Pierced, also bring in 6 disruption cards seems like it'd be a big dilution of the deck. there are games where you actually race the Counterbalance or Clique and you can't do that if your hand is all hate cards. Further, Defense Grid is more for Griselbrand decks because they tap out for SnT/Exhume and thus can't use all their FoW/Dazes, Miracles can just slow roll open mana and ignore Defense Grid more and more as the game goes on.

[davelin]

Has anybody tried out defense grid instead of xantid swarm recently, if so what are your opinions?

I've been struggling against counter-top, I recently moved to the 2 pithing needle, 2 abrupt decay sideboard for them but I am wanting a little more. Maybe I'm attacking the matchup from the wrong angle.

I thought defense grid may work better than xantid swarm as you can bring it in against control decks that may leave in some creature removal. It is a turn slower than xantid swarm but I'm usually not going off turn 2 against control decks and you don't have to worry about attacking or keeping a 0/1 alive.

From what I was able to find, defense grid was used in an early version of the deck but has long since been dropped.

Grid still doesn't prevent miracles being able to counter one if not more spells during your turn. Pretty ineffective hate if you still need to dig for discard before going off.

[mario91234]

6-3 at tales of adventure.

Report of losses
R1- Sneak+show
g1 he mulls to 6, t1 grissle. I win if he doesnt have force.
g2 he keeps garbage handle and i win on 5 cards w/ xantid
g3 i likely punted. opp's hand is 5 mystery cards and 4 lands in play. (3 untapped) There's about 5 cantrips he has cast this game.
He is at 16.
My board is 2 gold lands, fetch. Hand is 2x Dark rit, LED, Wish, Infernal, Pyroblast. Yard is brainstorm and xantid. Top card is ponder. My sequencing: Fetch, Dark rit, Infernal (get dark rit), dark rit, wish (get tendrils), rit->spell pierce. I pyroblast. He swan songs. I lose 2 turns later to combo. After discussing it, the proper sequence was likely rit->infernal (rit)->rit->rit (5 floating)-> Led->wish(access to 5 mana currently w/o led). If thats's his hand, he wins if he casts pierce then swan, any other outcome is gg.

r6-RUG
g1-i jam a t3 bloodmoon through infernal+led shenanigans. He looks at his stifle and scoops them up a couple turns later.
g2-I draw too many chrome mox and cantrip into oblivion. Goyf's eat me
g3-I make 6 gobs on t1. Opp is at 7 with a goyf and I have 4 gobs now. I decline to lava spike (this was wrong in hindsight). Fast forward 5 turns later, I have 3 wishes gone and my hand is IT/LED/Ad naus with 4 mana in play. My opponenet is at 3 after 2x forces(pitching stifles) and fetches and another goblin attack. Board is flipped delver+goyf vs 3 gobs and he has cast multiple cantrips (3 cards in hand). I go and get grapeshot and it meets the 3rd stifle. I'm out of win cons and can only put him to 1.

r8-Miracles
g1-pierce, jace, brainstorm, force and 3 lands on the play is his 7. He draws top on his first drawstep. I get close to winning.
g2-I win on t2 after he forces my silence and I decide to ad naus with 0 floating.
g3-I was never in this game. Blind name counterbalance shows me a clique, force, and brainstorm and a gone CB. He aggressively brainstorms and locks himself. the 2nd brainstorm pulls him into double UU. He gets a 2nd CB and proceeds to blind flip countering my next 4 spells. I get clique locked.

My wins were RUG, BUG, Blue elves, RB entomb/painter, oops all spells, and another blue deck.

List for shame:

4 Gemstone Mine
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Silence
1 Thoughtseize
1 Blood Moon
2 Mana Confluence
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Blood Moon

[Megadeus]

Careto elaborate on the blood moon?