Hi fellow rockers. Long time lurker (like 6 years!), first time poster! Some really nice lists in this thread.
Have finally committed to building The Rock, as it feels like a really well placed deck right now in my meta consisting of lots of Miracles (and I mean lots!) and also elves, burn and some death and taxes and stoneblade-type decks. There is not a huge amount of storm combo such as tendrils but there are one or two re-animator decks kicking around.
I have come up with the following list for your perusal, which has performed well in testing so far:-
Land (23)
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures (15)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Lingering Souls
Instants/Sorceries (13)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Sylvan Library
Equipment (3)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
1 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Humility
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
From my playtesting experience, I have had a few problems which I hope you'll be able to help with!
1) The mana base often feels slightly shaky/awkward and quite susceptible to wasteland. I'm not sure if more basics would help, as my coloured mana requirements are already fairly hefty. What do you think?
2) Do you think Tarmogoyf would be a good addition to the deck to help close out games faster against the likes of burn? If so, what would you cut to make room for the big man?
3) I'm not sure on the age-old question of top vs. library. My 2 drop slot is already fairly full so I'm thinking of switching to top, but the library helps a lot against the likes of miracles/stoneblade in terms of finding answers and overwhelming them with threats. I will test with the top and also a split, but just wondering what you guys thought.
4) Are there any other cards you think may be good vs. the above meta which I'm currently missing?
Any help would be appreciated!
Lists like the one you posted have had some success. I do think if you're running the green splash you need to have some more beef than just equipment buffs for your tokens in order to justify the extra strain on your mana base. Tarmogoyf is the easiest way to solve that problem but you can also use KotR or a GSZ package or at the very least something like Scavenging Ooze or Loxodon Smiter.Originally Posted by mbeast
In fact, I would say that in regard to your first question, the Dryad Arbor is very ambitious with no GSZ and only 5 green fetches. It doesn't even help you cast DRS turn 1 like basic forest. That might explain why you feel that you're getting crushed by Wasteland. You could definitely cut a Scrubland and the Arbor for a swamp and a forest, and I would go to 4 Flats, 4 Catacombs, 1 Heath for your fetches. If you really want to have Arbor in there, then I would go all out with a couple GSZ and some beefier green beaters like Ooze, Pridemage, Knight, or Thrun. Scavenging Ooze should definitely be in your 75 given a meta with lots of little creature decks (elves, burn, D&T). Thrun + Pridemage are pretty good against Miracles.
Library is a great card but I also find these decks to be very crowded at 2 cmc. It really comes down to personal preference about using that or Top or something else. I've even tried a list with Spirit of the Labyrinth and Mirri's Guile to fix my draws and Bobs while breaking symmetry. That didn't go very far because of the green creature issue to rationalize a heavy enough green splash to play a Library, Abrupt Decay, and some sideboard cards, you really want that board presence from a Goyf or something similar. Otherwise you're better off scaling back on the green and playing a deadguy ale variant.
This list is pretty similar to what I posted on the top of Page 307. About 4 lands different, and 7 or so non-lands.
Your mainboard mana costs include 29 black/10 green/10 white. That's including 3 black for the flashback of Lingering Souls, and counting Deathrite as 4 green AND 4 black.
I'd bump Verdant Catacombs to 4, as like most Junk decks, this one is heavily black biased, and fetching a basic swamp can be crucial. I recommend 4 Verdant/4 Marsh Flats/1+ Windswept. I like running 4 Wastelands, but that's a personal preference. Dryad Arbot is another person preference thing. There are lots of cool things you can do with it, but it can also get Wastelanded, Bolted, counts for Price of Progress, and it has summoning sickness. Right now I like basic Forest more.
I do like Tarmogoyf a whole lot. He's a fast clock on the cheap, and doesn't require any further mana or time investment (like Stoneforge or Knight of the Reliquary). Burn will have to 2 for 1 themselves against a Tarmogoyf. He's also pretty awesome against Death and Taxes, because he's so much bigger than their creatures, and doesn't afraid of anything (except Sword to Plowshares).
In my years of playing Junk, I have not run Top in Junk in a tournament. I don't like having to spend extra mana on it. I find Sylvan gives you a big enough chunk of selection, and doesn't ask you to spend more mana on it after you cast it.
As for your sideboard, it looks like you have a sufficient amount of Elves hate. That deck can be obnoxious. You can Golgari Charm 4 for 1 them, and then they rebuild the following turn. If you really want to put the boot on their neck, you need to overload on hate. If burn is a big deal, you can start boarding Aegis of Honor. If you don't know what that card is, give it a gatherer search. Its only good against burn, and absolutely nothing else, but jeez... that card a freaking nightmare for burn. I don't often run it anymore because its so narrow, but if you're going to an 8-man, and expect 2 burn decks, try it out. Its a 25 cent card and makes it nearly impossible to lose to burn.
Hope my ramblings help!
Thanks for the advice guys. I suppose Arbor isn't quite worth screwing up my entire manabase for
Thrun is an interesting suggestion that I haven't thought of and seems a bit underplayed in legacy in general.
Have been meaning to get some goyfs for a while so think it's time to bite the bullet and get them bought. Will cut a SFM, one piece of equipment and something else to fit 3 in to start with. Will let you know how they get on!
Thrun is pretty baller against Miracles, and he can potentially come in against Burn (vs. burn I usually start by cutting Bob and Thoughtseize, and then look for cards that don't actively lower my life total).
I actually have a funny story about casting Thrun a few months ago.
I'm playing vs. UWr Miracles. He Terminuses a couple times, but I have held back a Thrun. I go to cast it, and ask if it resolves ;) . He thinks for a minute, and casts Brainstorm. He put his cards back, and then Forces it, pitching Jace. I end my turn, with Thrun in play of course. He looks confused, picks up the card, and realizes that it can't be countered. In a Regular REL or proxy tournament, I'd probably let that slide, but there was 500 or so credit on the line.
Hey, I've been trying to build a DRS deck that's actually fun to play. Seems like Junk is the only one who fits this condition.
After browsing in this thread for different builds, I've come down to this:
Lands [22]
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
Creatures [19]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lingering Souls
Spells [19]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard [15]
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Thrun, the last Troll
I've tried to fit a second Sensei's Divining Top maindeck, but I couldn't really cut anything.
Any thoughts or comments on the list?
Jam in another top, go to 61 cards, then turn them into Sylvan Libraries. I like the list, though.
Thrun is a tank in this format. Carries Equipment like a beast, only dies to Terminus, and can block all day, e'er day.
I think against Burn, however, keeping in Thoughtseize is crucial. As long as a spell does 2 damage, you break even with Thoughtseize. Being able to take Fireblast, Eidolon, or even Smash to Smithereens is hella good. The main issue with the deck nowadays is Eidolon and all the Searing effects, since clearing out a creature used to cost them precious damage to the dome, and now it doesn't. Boo.
-Matt
I'm looking to try a new deck, and I love this one, but I lack goyfs. So I'm trying a GSZ build.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Duress
I'm not claiming this is near optimized and I've only goldfished but boy, it feels so good. I feel like every turn is a bomb.
Should I cut a removal spell for another piece of discard? Should it be one Cabal Therapy because I am playing Arbor? Right now I have the spare Duress in the board as a hedge but maybe I want something else there.
Please use library over guile. Ive drawn 4 cards in a game before and that has won me the match
i kinda like your approach, and i have allways loved GSZ in this deck, and the lack of goyf might be a little problem but is not as bad as many would think, still if you should get just a singleton goyf put it in there, even the singleton would help a lot with a GSZ-based shell
some suggestions i would have for you are the following:
- most definitely use sylvan library over mirris guile (i would at least run 2 librarys, and KobeBryan allready stated out why you should do that :P it wins you games, easily, specially if the opponent used swords to plowshares and you have batterskull
- i would definitely cut 1 removal for a 6th discard spell, which one you cut is either personal preference or depends on your meta, but generally Abrupt Decay is more versatile then Swords to Plowshares
- on which discard spell to use,... this also is personal preference, but in your case i would suggest the following: use 2-3 lingering souls in your sideboard (i think 3 is better), then use either a 3/3 split between thoughtseize and cabal therapy (or inquisition) or a 4/2 split in favor of thoughtseize (cabal therapy vs. inquisition in my opinion depends on preference, playskill, and your build)
-on your question about using cabal therapy together with dryad arbor: i can definitely be a blowout, and in my opinion, once your playskill with therapy is good enough that you are able to blindcall something and hit, it will be awesome (mindtricks included :P)
i had a really good expirience with therapy when i used a GSZ build, but with 2 dryad arbors in my manabase, just for therapy, and it felt so extremely strong, but i think for this to work you need at least 3 GSZ and 3 cabal therapys (this paired with goyf is bonkers). Try it:P
on your sideboard:
- use 2-3 lingering souls, they win games
- i like rest in peace because it does not hurt you at all
- golgari charm in my expirience is stronger then zealous persecution
- the enlightened tutor board is intresting, i never tried it myself, but i think that in this deck we need all the card advantage we can get, and enlightened tutor is the opposite, but if you still want to run the tutorboard it is fine, but put 1 engineered plague in there
hope i could help a little
EDIT: allmost forgot, if you lack the money for goyfs (which would be understandable) you might want to try either a singleton Doran, the Siege Tower, which is quite good in the TNN-matchups, or a singleton Knight of the Reliquary, as a wasteland-machinegun.
both are quite big beaters, which in my opinion is what your list right now lacks most
Apologies that this is my first Source post.. but the Top vs. Library thing is bugging me here. The use of anecdotes is not only weak, but it's a confirmation bias'd approach to the comparison. I personally wouldn't go Library after using both myself:
Pros of Top:
-See between 3 and 10 cards in a turn (often 4.) Sometimes you're seeing repeats so it's less interesting, but you can always increase fetch count to mitigate this from happening while boosting your ability to find G1 basics.
-1 Mana. Yeah, it's a mana sink over the game, but IME this deck isn't so mana hungry that 1 mana breaks your turn. Seeing 6-7 cards per turn is worth it.
-*Not 2 mana* This is the same thing; but from the opposite POV. If you lack DRS/Discard in your hand you can start with top->bob->lily against fair decks and still meet your curve. Top won't do anything yet, but it doesn't have to, it allows an efficient mana curve on the occasional awkward hand. It also curves nicely with DRS->2-Drop+Top->Activation + 3 Drop (if not playing against daze.)
-Gets rid of multiples and isn't vulnerable to opponent's shenanigans (other than revoker/needle.) And honestly, if they revoke Top instead of Lily, DRS, or Knight, I'm not too concerned.
-Hellbent shenanigans. Do you have a bomb on top of your deck for the situation? Your opponent can't really do anything about it until it happens. This means floating Decay on top and grabbing it instant speed against RiP/Helm. This means floating your S&T answer out of probe's view and grabbing it in response. Discard protection is a thing to consider.
-You can see an extra card per turn if you wait until after your draw, and combined with the above. *You can then play that card.*
-The mana you use for it can be Decay mana, bluff mana, DRS mana, SFM mana, or similar. Choose the best path later. It's not a huge drawback.
-It can be online a turn earlier.
-Similar to the above, think about the games where you have 2 sideboarded cards but you *really* want to see them. You're against dredge and are not going to Mull to your Cage/RiP; so instead with Top you can see the other 3 cards a turn early, set up DRS T2 if you missed him T1 (by going T1 Top, T2 spin, DRS.)
-Pretend Cantrip. It can swap itself for another card in your deck before a fetch, acting similar to a Ponder.
-Minor point, but can play around Chains of Meph or SotL reasonably.
Pros of Library
-Can Fireblast cards into your hand
-Sees 3 cards per turn and doesn't cost more mana
I get that library can get you cards, but it doesn't fit the curve as well IMO and offers less versatility. Being able to have 3 more cards in your hand at any given point in the game is a tremendous difference between seeing an extra 2 and occasionally getting cards.
The reasons to use top add up to that it gives you blue in a non-blue deck. Cantrips are notoriously powerful and the difference between Top and Library is a mix of speed and consistency vs. brute force. The curve fitting it offers and the ability to see more cards is just too attractive when you're in need of an answer.
How often have you really beaten someone over the head with BSK/Jitte/SoLaS where you have the life to expend on your hand but you couldn't win with aforementioned equipped creature? On that, why would drawing those cards to see new cards be better than seeing 7 *this turn* with that fetch you drew?
EDIT: One last thing that I've used it for: mana-awkward hands. Simply playing top T1, topping T2 can find land #2/#3 (depending on your greed) or fix your mana. Sylvan's higher non-colorless cost is not conducive to hand-fixing.
I have definitely won a ton of games on the back of the raw card advantage that Library provides. Top is great and all, but when you dont have anything to set up with it like miracles, I'd rather have the card that can provide card advantage.
You disparage anecdotes... and proceed to provide us with a bunch of anecdotes (IMEs, and IMOs).
I do think you're selling Library a little short though, and might be undervaluing the potential of the mana you spend on Top. I also think you're looking at Top's uber-best cast scenario, while not looking at Library's. Looking at 10 cards a turn costs 3 mana, and a mix of Fetches and/or Knights. No love for drawing 3 cards *this turn* and shredding a hand + deploying a threat?
- - - - -
You mentioned a point about "How often have you really beaten someone over the head with BSK/Jitte/SoLaS where you have the life to expend on your hand but you couldn't win with aforementioned equipped creature?"
Often times that one suited up creature just WILL NOT be enough. It might get StP'd, or Terminus'd, or Decay'd. When that happens, you can use that life to spend on drawing towards another threat. Or maybe they are building their hand up, waiting to combo you out. They have a Grindstone, or a Candelabra, or a Helm in play, waiting to draw that one or two more pieces they need to end the game. You can use your life with Library to get towards that answer/discard spell you need.
- - - - -
You do actually make some good points though. The repeatable selection of Top is pretty sweet, and looking at 7 cards is definitely powerful. But neither card is 'just better' than the other. I've just found that Library works better for me.
I didn't emphasize Library's points since everyone here seems to enjoy it (thus, why support them? I'm attempting to show Top as a valid, even preferable, alternative.)
I'll admit that 10 cards is rare; but at least it's possible (just like having a theoretical 8-16 extra life.) The drawing Library does is less efficient card manipulation in the late game than Top, because top sees more by default (4 at minimum with your draw, Library is 3 at min/max.) Seeing the creature a turn earlier is the same as drawing with Library to move the garbage off of the top. We can say 1 minimum for top if you wish; but I am basically never short on mana, and I run 21 non-Maze lands (3 Waste.)
What I meant by the the equipped creature thing (I understand it'll probably die, other than BSK) is that Top could've found you the creature as well, certainly in the life buffer you've granted yourself. How often did Library make the *actual* difference where simply flipping top for the creature wouldn't have sufficed?
Yeah, one is card advantage and one is neutrality, but it's worth noting that Top isn't going away (unless you want it to :) ); where Library may just get Decay'd or EE'd with some other permanent. Before saying "I don't mind that, 1-for-1 LULZ" your opponent chose to do that which implies you've suffered a net disadvantage by them popping Library instead of X. Top limits your opponent's options while giving you more options. I.E. you get better card selection, the opponent has worse target selection. You're closing a lane for an opponent by having a psuedo-hexproof permanent.
I don't know how else to say it, but Top is the non-blue cantrip and I don't see blue decks running Librarys. They don't need Top when they have Brainstorm + Ponder; but (most) non-blue decks should basically run Top (IMO.) I run less threats (I'm more anti-combo oriented with Hymns) than the typical list but I regularly have my threats deployed.
I just know that most of the time I have 2-mana to spare compared to 4-8 life. It's worth noting that Top is much better with Bob since he reduces the incoming life-loss if you wish where as Library you have to time it from your draw step to your next upkeep, no shuffle effects, no manipulation.
Either way, I'm not saying that people in here have to switch for me to be happy. I'm saying that I'd prefer when people post a list with Top it's not dismissed as garbage. I mean, saying "This one time I was ahead 16 life and ripped 4 extra cards and totally won" is missing the point you were ahead 16 life and probably could've done the same thing *without losing 16 life* by just Topping to your card. How magical christmas land is being 16 life ahead and Library vs. Top matter compared to the christmas land of having 2 fetches/shuffles next to Top (for 10 cards)? I believe the latter is more likely.
Again, I don't expect to convince you all to drop your Sylvans and swap over, but as a user of Top who's tried both, I feel like top makes opening hands better and fits the curve better. It plays around Daze better too (as your extra mana can just be used for Top.)
The only blue deck in the format that really plays Top is in Miracles. I have seen BUG decks however play Library from time to time. Top makes your 1 landers look a little better, but I don't think a 1 lander with top is ever really a good keep. In a non blue deck, in the early game I'd rather spend my mana gaining an on board advantage rather than spinning top to find things.
I'm not saying Blue decks play Top, I'm saying they play something that acts similar: cantrips. Top is a non-blue cantrip when you want it to be and something better when you don't. Blue decks don't really run Library either (because of cantrips) outside of the occasional RUG Delver or Shardless 1-of; and that's my point. Cantrips > Library unless you're already filled to the brim with cantrips.
Playing Library is not building board advantage either so that point is moot. I don't top T2, T3, or even sometimes T4 unless I have extra mana (I.E. the Daze or DRS + 2-drops examples), see that I'm going to miss my land drops, or there's a bomb card I need to use (I.E. Cage.) Library can be CA, but CAing dead cards into your hand for better draws *next turn* is worse (IMO) than card-parity and seeing a brand new three cards, a fourth card, or some other option right now. There are times Library/Top sees nothing but garbage. With library this means you have no play other than drawing a lot of garbage off of the top. With Top (assuming a shuffle) you don't have to wait a turn, you can see a new 3 and play a bomb from them if you are so fortunate.
The explosive chain of plays Library can offer is normally doable by simply flipping top in the first place, then playing your two cards. It's true that you cannot do this over and over and it's true that some of these plays will off your top; this is and the CA are Library's advantages. Still, I prefer the consistency of seeing more cards and letting my myriad other card-advantage cards do the work.
I personally prefer the one top over the third library but I would play no less then two libraries. Card advantage wins games and so does having what you need when you need it. Top is better at finding your one of's, niether is strictly better they actually work very well together. Playing 0 libraries is wrong any way you slice it though.
Are any manlands playable* in this deck?
Mishra's Factory
Stirring Wildwood
Treetop Village
Since Creeping Tar Pit is playable in Shardless BUG and both the rock and shardless bug are pretty mid-rangey it was just a thought I had. (But I don't play this deck much, so perhaps it'sa bad thought.)
*use whatever definition of playable you want.
I was going to keep quiet because this the "Library vs Top" argument kind of a religious subject but, this is too absolute a statement.
If you think that it's just plain wrong to not play with a single library you'll have trouble realizing that 2 is the standard CC of majority of permanents in the deck and sideboard. Any meta where EE is even mildly possible should consider playing top(s) instead.
Their purposes are very similar but not the same, even if you're only using them to filter. I used tops exclusively in my starting lists because I wanted something that could come down turn 1 and could be saved from my own Deeds. I added a singleton Library to replace a third top at one point to give it a chance. That change added a more permanent card advantage tool at the cost of it's safety.
I do suggest that if you're playing 3 of either you should replace 1 with the other. I believe that having variety and flexibility is more important to the archetype than being set in the ways of the past, or current, examples. There are reasons I post lists with things like Mikokoro listed (FYI - this card has functioned well alongside Liliana and Knight. Miracles example - trigger'd too soon?).
There will be games that you want another of either in your list. You've all been in those situations a top/library instead of the one you had would've potentially saved you. You can't do both with either. Top will let you use it more than once. Library will let you draw X cards at only the cost of only life.
My point is, "Nothing is wrong with either option, for the current archetype." Saying things are wrong makes people think they are. Maybe it's because they've seen it work a couple times or maybe they're taking your word on it. All of us need to remember that something working a couple time still means that it fails as well.
Shardless plays Tar Pit because itīs so good at killing opposing planeswalkers and finishing the opponent. It also provides U and B mana so it helps the deck to fight against wasteland. These lands are fine but I would not personally play these in the Rock just because they dont fit in this deck as well as the Tar Pit fits to the Shardless deck. I have seen some old list with Mishra though.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote