Both list are good and have their own different strengths. The mono red list has been played a lot more, especially at a time when it fit the meta game really well (had a first one week and a second at the next SCG tournament). RW is becoming more popular these days, but so are other decks that we tend to have a terrible match up with such as Burn. That at least is my reasoning behind why you don't see as many high finishes RW as you do mono R.Originally Posted by Tiago
I do play the deck differently now compared to when I first started. It's good to wait to ensure blood moon sticks rather then to risk it being daze for example. Right use of REC is something I am learning all the time. It just seems that miracles 8 creature destruction and 10-12 counters makes it difficult to win. Their plan is to always drop top which we can only counter if we get painter on board and have a blast in hand. If we hold blast for counter balance they still are likely to have at lead force or a counter available when they play counterbalance. We can only stick one creature on board or risk a 2 for 1 loss to miracles wraith. Their top with brainstorm and the number of fetches they run is very good at filtering their cards if we do not place a threat. Blood moon helps but getting it through is more of us needing a blast as backup and 4 mana on board.
I like the idea of pyrokinese. It's pretty much card disadvantage if it gets counter but I can see it taking out goyf or at least 2 if not three creatures. May be worth a try. I do agree pyrocalsm only fits gee specific meta and is risky most of the time.
On the lands issue. I can see why some prefer to run 20 lands instead of 18 or 19. I almost always ship any one land hand even with top. I get screwed with it more times then any 6 hand draw after a mulligan. I mean I won many times on 5 hand mulligan then keeping a draw of 7 with 1 land. IP is rather forgiving of mulliganning it seems.
Even then I do seem to feel that I get mana screwed quite a number of times. This is especially so with the R/W version. I know this is just a roll of the dice and happens to all decks. It seems that it happens more often then I would like. Not sure if having 20 lands would make that big a difference. The other option is to run mono red with cards like spellskite/koth? In place of tutor. Grindstone will be harder to come by with potentially better mana Stability? Or run 1 plains and fetch it whenever possible?
Thaks! I got it.
Well, I have a problem now. I can´t bear the thought of play with a worse list. I prefer the RW, but if the mono is better, I must to convince myself.
I will play a tournment with this deck in September. So... I need your help guys.... RW or MONO???
What do you think about a whatsapp group?
Tiago read through this thread before asking questions like that. Everything has been covered. I'll answer again anyways.
If you are less experienced with the deck run mono red. You won't be punished as much with it. Shortcake is the better version only if you know what you're doing. In the manabase alone, This includes everything from sandbagging non basics for wasteland purposes, pre-emptive tutoring, fetching decisions basic/non if you don't have a tutor at the moment, and cost/benefit of killing off a city of traitors so you can have a white source. You also run a great furnace so you end up with only half as many basics as mono red. you only have these decisions when playing rw and if you don't squeeze all the value out of them as you can you'll run into mana screw issues and open up soft counters and wasteland punishment. The payoff is higher because you have better tutoring and bullets available, though.
Thanks for the tips.
I read everything before ask this, but I didn't found nothing really solid.
I've been playing MTG since 1996, I have a good experience. The field is really good here, people love Delver's decks... And I.. Well.. I hate it!! Lets breake and paint them all.
I didn't say a lot of magic experience. You need a lot of painter experience.
Disappointing 0-2 drop streaming the 7:30 EST daily yesterday.
If anyone was watching, I apologize for dropping the first match. Got a call from the shop and had to pick up the car. Hopefully a situation like that will not come up again.
Brutal mull to 4 against miracles in R2 G1 and then a quick terminus followed by the Counter-Top lock G2. Blah. I still like us in this match-up. Just some bad luck yesterday.
Tough times.
What Kap'n is telling everyone is spot on from my experience. I played R/W for quite awhile and did well, though I would occasionally find myself in mana-screw situations. I've recently been trying Mono-Red, and I've found it suits my play-style and level of experience much better. R/W is more consistent in finding your combo pieces and silver bullets, but you're living much more on the edge, which can open you up some to Delver and other such decks if your decision-making isn't spot-on. Mono-Red is less consistent at finding the combo, but slightly more resilient on the whole. I'm no expert, so the Mono-Red version fits me better. If you have more experience, R/W is probably the better version of the deck, but it requires more knowledge of the meta and more crucial decisions.
On the Miracles match, I agree with Kap'n, it's at least 60% in Painter's favor. Shutting off fetches via Moon is huge against them. You can also usually pin them single-U and/or single-W mana, and they require UU or WW for their win conditions. I often use the combo pieces as bait spells to set up landing Koth or Chandra. If the combo works, great, but it can be difficult. I also run one Vexing Shusher in my sideboard as anti-Miracles, anti-Chalice tech -- though that's an MTGO call since there's so much Miracles online. Not sure I'd bring Shusher to a live tournament.
In the Mono-red shell, I've been testing Chandra and Coercive Portal. Portal was awesome the one game I drew it last night. I can't decide if it's win-more or not though.
@cab0747 -- what's your handle on MTGO? I was in the same daily yesterday. Aside from Kap'n, it feels like ages since I've run across another Painter deck in a daily.
My MTGO handle is IAmGnarles. I haven't been grinding the dailies as consistently as I would like. I think the other painter player I was up against last night was PA_Rude. There might have been a number tacked on to his name. Maybe PA_Rude60... Oh well, I suppose the accuracy of his name doesn't matter.
I am on the east coast so I have been doing the 7:30 pm EST daily rather than the later one. It seems that not as many people sign up, but since I have to be at work between 8 and 9 am on weekdays, the 11:00 pm event isn't really an option.
This is something I would join in on. Just sayin'. Taptalk works as well, if that wasn't an option already
Also; Hometown GP this weekend! It's standard but nothing but Legacy Side events and the championship on sunday! Shit prize payouts (m15 boosters) but it's a change of pace and I'm ready to grind R/w some. I'll keep notes and don't expect much in the way of skilled opponents and any sort of a metagame. It's going to be a great weekend slinging spells, and I'll share my results for those more interested in running something close to Seth's list (personal preference)
Well, let's try to make a group.
Can you put your phone's numbers here? I think there is no problem. I don't know how you, north-americans call the two numbers before the "main" number, but I will need it.
Example:
+55 (51) 9987-2987
Yes, that was me. Sorry you couldn't finish. It was a fun matchup. I ended up 4-0ing the daily. Played against 2 American delver and elves in the finals.
Round 2 had a really strong hand with early combo and REB backup both games.
round 3 very grindy and eventually got there by answering all his threats, beating down with dorks, and sealing the deal with moon in Game 3. FYI to kapn, I play 2 pyrite spellbomb main and they were all-stars. I think I recurred it like 4 times with welder against delver and he couldn't keep a threat on board. Other nice thing is that you can always just cycle them in matchups where they are bad and they give you an artifact in the yard for welder shenanigans.
Round 4 against elves pretty grindy as well. Round one just got there a little faster than he did with combo. Round 2 he got his engine going but I had Jaya and the Jitte out and was keeping him at bay. He of course would just bounce dudes that he blocked the Jitter guy up and I would kill the symbiote and he would just get another one. Eventually he was able to run out two Behemoths in a row and ran over me. Game 3 blew him out with sudden demise to hit 4 dudes and then dropped jaya and killed his forest with painter and moon out and he was locked out of green mana.
So far also like my word of seizing tech. It won me my game against cab (we both had leyline out and I was able to steal his) and is awesome against miracles, and especially fun to steal and ultimate Jace.
Also, I really like the idea of pyrokinesis other than the card disadvantage. Might have to try that out.
Last edited by drude1; 08-10-2014 at 12:50 PM.
One other quick thing, I've had the unfortunate experience of playing against Tezzerator some lately and man is that a gruesome matchup. They have Chalice of the void, tons of artifact mana so blood moon is worthless, countermagic to break up our combo and their win condition is a bunch of Planeswalkers or thopter/sword combo so the bridges aren't really good. Anyone have any secrets to this matchup? I assume you just have to try to jam the combo ASAP and forget about everything else. I may have been trying to control the game too much. Chalice is killer on turn one though. I even run the manic vandal and one copy of shattering spree in the SB. Shattering spree is obviously really good against him. I may actually go up to 2 copies of that, as I've also been seeing a lot of null rod lately.
Play viashino heretic over manic vandal if you fear artifact.decks ; play grindstone immediately and hope they don't have chalice turn one if you're on the draw. You can also side in RIP/helm to circumvent chalice.
I used to play heretic over the vandal which was good against MUD but it was so bad against most of the other decks you want artifact removal for (namely stoneforge decks or other one of''s). It would just die before I would even get to activate it. I guess it would be better in this particular matchup though. And yes, I would obviously drop the grindstone immediately (or welder) if given the opportunity. It just doesn't always happen like that. I guess considering I have 7 spells to drop on turn one (grindstone + welder) vs his 4 chalice and a sol land, the odds should be in my favor. Maybe I've just been getting unlucky in the matchup or need to mulligan to one of my 1 drops right away. I do also have the RIP/helm combo against them but it's not that great in this matchup as I feel like the welders are pretty powerful against their deck and I don't want to shut them off.
Again, a singleton Vexing Shusher (which is fetchable) in the side goes a long way against Chalice / Counterbalance decks....Miracles / MUD / Tezzerator / Merfolk (now playing Chalice a lot) is a significant enough portion of the meta for one sideboard card I think.
I didn't see nothing about CURSED TOTEM in this topic. I think Cursed Totem is a powerfull card to put in SB. It helps in matches like Death and Taxes, Elves, blades, BUG, etc).
Anyone of you have tested?
Wow, it's a great idea, I really like it.
I'll buy it and test it.
But aren't those match ups we're already pretty good against? I'm thinking about a singleton COP: Red in heavy Burn and UR Delver meta, which I think is really tough for us. I just hate loosing to Burn and it always put me on tilt when I have to face against it.
Looking for Chinese cards to complete my legacy decks....hit me up!!!
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