[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[saur]

Hi. I posted this over at MtgSalvation as well but I felt there is more activity here :-)

I've been playing this deck for about two years now and I really like the new direction this deck is heading. I have read through this entire thread (it took quite some time...) and I've had a fun time seing how the deck has evolved and how discussion have gone.

I've often felt that this deck has two major weaknesses:

1) It is relatively slow
This often comes into play against other combo decks as well as against fast aggro decks. This is relatively unique among combo decks since most other combo decks can easily outrace aggro. High Tide can seldom race other combo decks and is often on par with many aggro decks.

2) It quite susceptible to hate and discard
This is the major drawback with High Tide. There are very few decks today that are without either counters and/or discard and/or some kind of MD hate. Classic High Tide has relatively few ways to defend itself so (I know some of you do not agree with me here, but I often feel that my 7 counters are a bit few when the opponent has 4-5 discards).

Weakness one cannot really be tackled. The deck cannot really be sped up so trying to race other decks aren’t an option. And I think that most of us can agree that the deck has to evolve somehow. The meta has changed to the worse for High Tide so if we want this deck to become successful again, it has to change something. Thus, being more controlly is probably the best way.
CounterTop is a solid shell for a controlling deck, and just what we need. It attacks weakness two whilst still not giving in to faster decks. The only weakness of the CounterTop suit is that it makes the combo less stable (more dead cards post-spiral). In my opinion, the solution to this is Capsize.

To generate inf mana with Capsize, we need: 1 Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 Capsize and that our lands produce 8+N mana, where N is the amount of lands in play So, with 4 lands in play we need 12 mana from our lands (ie. 2 resolved High Tide). With 3 lands, we need 11 mana (3 resolved High Tide). If we have a Top in play with inf mana and a Capsize, we can draw our entire deck and thus win instantly. If we don’t have a Top, you can always bounce your opponents board, in worst case that’ll give you a few turns to build up again.
Capsize is a stable win-con, easy to assemble and fairly quick. I really think that if we want to play CounterTop MD, Capsize should be in the SB or even MD.

Other ways to make the deck more controlling could be to involve a second color. While I understand the Wasteland argument (and believe me, it is a very strong argument), with the slower CounterTop build it might be worth looking at again. We could look at what other colors could give us:

Black:
Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress - Useful to strip other decks of their weapons against us, also somewhat useful post-spiral to see if the opponent drew FoW.
Toxic Deluge, Drown in Sorrow - Kills almost all hate-bears out there

Red:
Pyroclasm - Kills almost all hate-bears out there
Izzet Charm - Every mode is actually useful. Question is, what card is it better than?
Red Elemental Blast - Meh... Maybe...

Green:
Tangle - Buys time
Exploration, Explore - Have been tried before to get a lot of lands into play
Nature's Claim - Might be useful in SB against... something...

White:
Terminus - Miracle plays it, and with Top, Brainstorm and Ponder we can set up our library almost as much as they can
Humility - If we get this baby into play, we have all the time in the world.
Orim's Chant - Safe combo, and it can buy a turn against aggro.


So other colors have good cards and I would really like the splash to be worth it. Is it worth it though? Truth is, I am not sure... I'll do some testing when I get the chance but unfortunately, I'll have to do most of my testing via Cockatrice.
I think the main question regardins splashing is: What would be requiered to justify a splash? If we could make our own non-blue card which would warrent a splash, how would it look? And after we've created our perfect card, analyze if there is a card which is close enough.

If you're splashing Red, you need to be playing Past in Flames. A lot of players here have already tried splashing, and I think the consensus is, it's not worth opening yourself up to wasteland or not drawing a fetch when you need it. Let us know if you find anything different.

[feline]

After reading this I feel like I've been playing the deck totally wrong. In Worcester I was facing a deathblade type deck. I had 4 lands, a candle and 2 counters. I mulliganed. Is that incorrect?

I can't say that it is correct or incorrect because everyone's play style is different. All I can say is, I would have not mulliganed personally. But again I am stricter on not mulliganing whenever I can. I have the same standards for, standard, he he.

[Jesture]

I've made a couple of notes in bold:

Hi. I posted this over at MtgSalvation as well but I felt there is more activity here :-)

I've been playing this deck for about two years now and I really like the new direction this deck is heading. I have read through this entire thread (it took quite some time...) and I've had a fun time seing how the deck has evolved and how discussion have gone.

I've often felt that this deck has two major weaknesses:

1) It is relatively slow
This often comes into play against other combo decks as well as against fast aggro decks. This is relatively unique among combo decks since most other combo decks can easily outrace aggro. High Tide can seldom race other combo decks and is often on par with many aggro decks. This shouldn't really be a problem as long as you're familiar with your match-ups and how to play against them. While speed is definitely a huge factor in how strong a deck is, it's far from the end all/say all for gauging the effectiveness of the deck. High Tide's fundamental turn could easily be sped up by adding play sets of Snap or Retraced Image to the main, but doing this sacrifices a lot of resilience, which is one of the core strengths of the deck.

2) It quite susceptible to hate and discard
This is the major drawback with High Tide. There are very few decks today that are without either counters and/or discard and/or some kind of MD hate. Classic High Tide has relatively few ways to defend itself so (I know some of you do not agree with me here, but I often feel that my 7 counters are a bit few when the opponent has 4-5 discards). There are very few match-ups in which you can't play around hand disruption. Save your FoW's for Hymns and Cabal therapies if you can, as to try and not 2 for 1 yourself. If that's not cutting it, learn how to use brainstorms better. There's a reason this card is often referred to as "The Best Card in Legacy". Find people who play maindeck Duress or Therapy, then jam games with them and discuss until you get a better idea of when you should be saving brainstorms and when you should fire them off in the main phase. As an aside, you can consider including main deck or siding in another Meditate in order to come back from large card deficits against fair decks that play discard.

Weakness one cannot really be tackled See notes. The deck cannot really be sped up so trying to race other decks aren’t an option. And I think that most of us can agree that the deck has to evolve somehow. The meta has changed to the worse for High Tide so if we want this deck to become successful again, it has to change something. Thus, being more controlly is probably the best way. Please stay away from this notion. High Tide has enough trouble trying to out-control many decks in the pre-board alone. Post board is a complete nightmare, your relevant sideboard cards are all bounce which are solely meant to be used to clear the path for your fundamental turn. Copies of Counterbalance are already a stretch, though the ratio of power to card slots (tops already in the main) makes it a very attractive choice. If you're using the term "control" as a synonym for permission, then this is something that can be tackled on a meta by meta basis. However, do not try and turn this into a control deck. High Tide simply does not have the card slots to become something like U/W miracles which tries to outlast and inevitably grind out the opponent.

CounterTop is a solid shell for a controlling deck, and just what we need. It attacks weakness two whilst still not giving in to faster decks. The only weakness of the CounterTop suit is that it makes the combo less stable (more dead cards post-spiral). In my opinion, the solution to this is Capsize.

To generate inf mana with Capsize, we need: 1 Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 Capsize and that our lands produce 8+N mana, where N is the amount of lands in play So, with 4 lands in play we need 12 mana from our lands (ie. 2 resolved High Tide). With 3 lands, we need 11 mana (3 resolved High Tide). If we have a Top in play with inf mana and a Capsize, we can draw our entire deck and thus win instantly. If we don’t have a Top, you can always bounce your opponents board, in worst case that’ll give you a few turns to build up again.
Capsize is a stable win-con, easy to assemble and fairly quick. I really think that if we want to play CounterTop MD, Capsize should be in the SB or even MD.
Capsize is a neat gimmick, but it doesn't do anything to help you resolve your first Time Spiral any more easily. Four lands and 2 resolved High Tides with a Candelabra in play followed by a wish for Capsize is like the Magic Christmas Land of High Tide combo turns. If you can resolve a High Tide and a Time Spiral, you're already in fantastic shape to win the game and a huge step up in terms of board position. Don't sacrifice card slots for win-more cards (like Capsize) that only help when you're already mid combo.

Other ways to make the deck more controlling could be to involve a second color. While I understand the Wasteland argument (and believe me, it is a very strong argument), with the slower CounterTop build it might be worth looking at again. We could look at what other colors could give us:

Black:
Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress - Useful to strip other decks of their weapons against us, also somewhat useful post-spiral to see if the opponent drew FoW.
Toxic Deluge, Drown in Sorrow - Kills almost all hate-bears out there

Red:
Pyroclasm - Kills almost all hate-bears out there
Izzet Charm - Every mode is actually useful. Question is, what card is it better than?
Red Elemental Blast - Meh... Maybe...

Green:
Tangle - Buys time
Exploration, Explore - Have been tried before to get a lot of lands into play
Nature's Claim - Might be useful in SB against... something...

White:
Terminus - Miracle plays it, and with Top, Brainstorm and Ponder we can set up our library almost as much as they can
Humility - If we get this baby into play, we have all the time in the world.
Orim's Chant - Safe combo, and it can buy a turn against aggro.

What saur said is absolutely correct. Any card you add to the deck that is not blue or a basic island dilutes the power of the remaining cards significantly. Wastelands are a prominent part of the format, and many decks cannot afford to side them out in games 2 and 3 simply because they're lands that tap for mana. I spent about 6 months toying with a red splash that had a singleton Volcanic Island for 1x Past in Flames, and that alone was too much for the deck to handle. Land drops are so important for the deck, and having a symmetrical land destruction effect is almost always more detrimental to High Tide than it is to the other deck. Splashes also make cards like FoW and Merchant Scroll worse, as they can only interact with other blue cards. Cases of this being relevant are rarer than Wasteland, but they do cause you to lose games from time to time.

So other colors have good cards and I would really like the splash to be worth it. Is it worth it though? Truth is, I am not sure... I'll do some testing when I get the chance but unfortunately, I'll have to do most of my testing via Cockatrice.
I think the main question regardins splashing is: What would be requiered to justify a splash? If we could make our own non-blue card which would warrent a splash, how would it look? And after we've created our perfect card, analyze if there is a card which is close enough.

Edited for grammar and typos

[flrn]

I can't say that it is correct or incorrect because everyone's play style is different. All I can say is, I would have not mulliganed personally. But again I am stricter on not mulliganing whenever I can. I have the same standards for, standard, he he.

Through playing Standard I learned to mulligan way more hands than I did before. Being unable to cast your spells, because you are greedy is the worst feeling.

[Pox22]

I played my list to a 3-1 finish in a local legacy tournament this evening!

//Maindeck
3x Candelabra of Tawnos
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
2x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
4x High Tide
1x Intuition
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
2x Spell Pierce
4x Time Spiral
2x Turnabout
12x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Flusterstorm
1x Intuition
1x Polymorphist’s Jest
1x Snap
1x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
2x Defense Grid
2x Grafdigger’s Cage

My maindeck is unchanged from my last write-up—the Spell Pierces and maindeck Intution are still fantastic. I've posted here on Spell Pierce and its value in countering Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void on the draw. I did make some changes to my sideboard, however. I cut Pact of Negation for Spell Pierce—this might be wrong, but I almost never wish for Pact of Negation (usually favoring Flusterstorm), and I really like the idea of having both the 3rd Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce in the board to bring in against their respective match-ups. I cut Rebuild for Polymorphist’s Jest—which I was excited to start testing the moment it was spoiled to turn off multiple hate-bears. On to the report!

Round 1: Brandon with Chalice Merfolk
Game 1: I play Islands and sculpt while he drops Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, another Cursecatcher, and a Lord of Atlantis. He beats me down pretty low and I get a read on him that tells me he has another lord in hand for lethal. I purposefully tap out on my turn for a Cunning Wish and he takes the bait—sacrificing a Cursecatcher to counter it. He untaps, plays a Master of the Pearl Trident, and swings me down to 1 life. I untap, draw, play High Tide and Time Spiral with Flusterstorm back-up. I’m able to go off as he realizes his error.

SB: -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, -2 Preordain, -1 Turnabout, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Defense Grid

Game 2: He keeps a pressure-light hand and gets down quick Chalices of the Void on 1 and 2 after I play a Sensei's Divining Top. His lack of creatures gives me time to sculpt and make land drops as my Sensei’s Divining Top keeps a Wipe Away in the top 3. When I have 5 lands in play, I Wipe Away the Chalice on 1 at his end of turn and then proceed to go off—at some point I Turnabout him to tap his lands, move to second main, Wipe Away the other Chalice, and drop a Defense Grid to put him in f6 mode.

Round 2: JR with Death and Taxes
Game 1: This was easily my favorite game of the night. I play a turn 1 Sensei’s Divining Top and he plays an Aether Vial. I play two Candelabra of Tawnos as he plays a Phyrexian Revoker on Candelabra and then another on Sensei’s Divining Top. He adds a Spirit of the Labyrinth to his board as I play my fifth Island. I play another Candelabra and pass. He adds a Thalia to his board and I cast Cunning Wish in response for……..Polymorphist’s Jest! He bashes for not-lethal and passes. I untap, he activates Rishadan Port during my upkeep—to which I respond by tapping that Island and another to cast High Tide. I tap my other three Islands for Turnabout to untap my lands, pay 2UU for Polymorphist’s Jest to turn his hatebears into 1/1 ability-less frogs, make mana with my freed Candelabras, Intuition for three Time Spirals, and go off in spectacular fashion.

SB: -3 Flusterstorm, -1 High Tide, +1 Blue Sun’s Zenith, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Snap, +1 Spell Pierce

I debated bringing in the Polymorphist’s Jest—as to effectively have 5 copies maindeck via Merchant Scroll as opposed to 3 via Cunning Wish, but decided against it.

Game 2: The second game was a boring affair as he leads with Wasteland, Aether Vial which I counter with Force of Will. He doesn't get another land and his only other relevant play all game was a Pithing Needle on Sensei’s Divining Top—which doesn't prevent me from going off once I hit five Islands.

Round 3: Bryce on Shardless BUG
Game 1: This game was a bit of a grind. He leads with a Thoughtseize on my hand of High Tide, High Tide, Time Spiral, Force of Will, Sensei’s Divining Top, Preordain, Island. He comments on my “risky keep,” but I tell him I keep one-landers all day, every day. Ain't no thang. He takes the Time Spiral (I think he should have snap-seized the top) and passes. I draw Misty Rainforest and play Island into top. He resolves some dudes and an Ancestral Visions while I sculpt and make land-drops. He has a Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, and Shardless Agent in play with a stacked hand of six cards—causing me no small amount of worry as I just have four Islands and top in play with High Tide, Time Spiral and Force of Will in hand. He swings—taking me down to 6 life, and plays a land and Shardless Agent—cascading into another Tarmogoyf. I untap and thankfully draw a Preordain to go with my Force of Will. I cast High Tide and Time Spiral—which both resolve. I end up Turnabout’ing him to tap him down and moving to the second main to make my Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms live against his (now tapped) Islands which also tap for a billion. I’m able to make +100 mana and Zenith him out.

SB: -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, -1 High Tide, -1 Preordain +1 Blue Sun’s Zenith, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Spell Pierce

Game 2: He falls into the trap that so many do—keeping a hand heavy on disruption but lacking a threat. People often think this hand is great vs combo and High Tide—but it just lets me do what High Tide wants to do (and something I've already typed multiple times so far): “sculpt and make land drops.” He makes a questionable line on turn 1—fetch for Tropical Island into Brainstorm. I was very fine with that. I draw, play an Island a cast top--he forces it and I pass. He plays a Bayou, and drops a Nihil Spellbomb off of Tropical Island. I…”sculpt and make land drops” and soon Intuition for three Time Spirals (which might have been incorrect in the face of the spellbomb). He drops a Liliana of the Veil as I’m holding High Tide, Time Spiral, Turnabout, Cunning Wish, and an Island. He ticks up, discarding a Polluted Delta and I pitch the Cunning Wish. I play an Island and pass. He plays a land, ticks up and discards his last card—a Misty Rainforest. I pitch the Turnabout. I think it would have been much more valuable to hold two cards in his hand—the extra land in play wasn't relevant and holding two cards in hand represents Force of Will, which at the time I couldn't play through.

But I’m able to safely High Tide and Time Spiral against a hellbent opponent—though the cracked Nihil Spellbomb caused some problems as my deck was down to two High Tides and a single Time Spiral. My hand gives me a top, a candelabra, and cantrips. I furiously dig, netting another candelabra and a Turnabout in hand. I spin top—seeing Island, Merchant Scroll, Merchant Scroll. I put the Merchant Scrolls on top, tap top, and start to say “Hold priority” as I reach for my Islands to tap—as I want to Turnabout my artifacts to flip top twice (drawing the Merchant Scroll and the Sensei's Divining Top). My opponent cuts me off with, “in response to the top…” and moves to tap his Tropical Island and Bayou. I tell him I’m holding priority and consider for a moment. I haven’t yet tapped my mana or announced the Turnabout—and my opponent is clearly telegraphing Abrupt Decay. I pass priority and let him attempt to Abrupt Decay my top. I Turnabout in response to untap my artifacts and flip the top again. I make more mana with my two candelabras and draw the second Merchant Scroll with the Sensei’s Divining Top. I Merchant Scroll for Flusterstorm, and then again for Cunning Wish into a very lethal Brain Freeze.

I explained to my opponent that if a High Tide player flips a top and wants to hold priority with a Candelrabra or two in play—they almost always have the Turnabout, which effectively counters the Abrupt Decay. Waiting to cast the Abrupt Decay in response to the Turnabout actually makes me fizzle, as I would have been short on storm for Brain Freeze with only one Merchant Scroll—and having only cast a single High Tide left me woefully short on mana for Blue Sun’s Zenith. This is all likely a moot point for this specific match—as he would not have been able to kill me in time and I would have won the match 1-0-1. But still a teachable moment for him!

Round 4: Chris with RUG Delver
I’m 3-0 and he’s 2-1 and not only is he a friend of mine…but we also wanted to jam some vintage before the shop closed. I scoop to him so we’re both in the money and so I can play vintage Doomsday vs a sweet mono-blue brew with Standstills, Spellstutter Sprites, and a pile of counters. We roughly split our games even, but I’ll spare you a write-up on vintage, haha. Sorry to cheat you out a round for the report!

Of course I’m going to feel good about a list that didn't drop a game (albeit in only 3 matches), but it played very smoothly and I feel the games adequately show why I've made the changes I've made. Spell Pierce is fantastic in my meta with lots of Aether Vials, Chalice of the Voids, and Counterbalances. I’m also ecstatic that Polymorphist’s Jest performed its exact purpose in its first outing.

Feel free to critique the list, play, or writing! Doing these write-ups improves my memory and attention to detail and builds my confidence to hopefully hit up some SCG Opens as I’m able!

[Mackan]

I played my list to a 3-1 finish in a local legacy tournament this evening ...

Well written and well played! I am a bit curious about your sideboarding as I remember myself siding out all candelabras a lot. You seem to keep at least some of them postboard, could you explain your reasoning a bit?

Also, versus DnT I think you can afford to keep all high tides in the deck as they generally don't play Surgical Extraction. Scroll cost 1 mana less than Wish which is pretty big, even if they have Rishadan Port. Probably over that Spell Pierce.

Im going to test high tide again this week on modo and because miracles is the most played deck I will start playing Swan song main. Any other suggestions to a miracle-infested meta game? Preferably without a splash.

[Brael]

Random thought here (and possibly a bad idea) but what do people think about the new Teferi as a potential untap source as a 1 of? It is 6 mana, but the deck has no problems with 6 mana and the -1 untaps 4 permanents which can be Islands or Candelabras. It would basically fill the same role as Turnabout except it can untap a mix of card types.

[hellhound]

sorry but, what's this new teferi you're talkin about?

new spoiler of khans? ain't see it yet...

[flrn]

sorry but, what's this new teferi you're talkin about?

new spoiler of khans? ain't see it yet...

[lordofthepit]

Random thought here (and possibly a bad idea) but what do people think about the new Teferi as a potential untap source as a 1 of? It is 6 mana, but the deck has no problems with 6 mana and the -1 untaps 4 permanents which can be Islands or Candelabras. It would basically fill the same role as Turnabout except it can untap a mix of card types.

Six mana is something the deck often does if you're ramping into Time Spiral, which fills your hand back up and likely wins the game that turn. If you're playing a High Tide in order to accelerate into a Teferi, you still need gas to draw you draws for the turn, because otherwise "High Tide into Teferi, go" is terrible.

Turnabout is much better than Teferi as well. In addition to costing less mana, it's useful because it's an instant and allows you to tap down your opponent at the end of his or her turn. Or fog their attackers to get another turn. Or untap your artifacts at instant speed to allow you to double dip on Sensei's Divining Top. Plus it untaps all of your cards of the chosen type, and it can be fetched by Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish. There isn't really any comparison between the versatility and the power level of those two cards in this deck.

[feline]

If you're gonna go that route, go with Mind over Matter instead of Tefari. To note though, Mind over Matter hasn't been used in a couple years now.

[seilaquem]

Hey, feline,

How big was that bluesun on your feature match?

Also, isn't capsize worth running using 4 candelabras? In which metas is it worth it to run capsizes? (it's a card that I really love, but can't get my hands on candelabras for me yet =/)

[203995014]

Hey, feline,

How big was that bluesun on your feature match?

Also, isn't capsize worth running using 4 candelabras? In which metas is it worth it to run capsizes? (it's a card that I really love, but can't get my hands on candelabras for me yet =/)

I personally find in testing that Capsize is fine in versions of high tide that substitute Candelabra for Cloud of Faeries for budget reasons since without it it gets really difficult to find sufficient mana to win with Blue Sun's Zenith and to continue stacking enough spells to use Brain Freeze. However in the builds with Candelabra normally candelabra already produce so much mana that capsize is win more. Capsize can be used to draw infinite cards with sensei's divining top to cut down on the time spent comboing but that's no reason to use a card in the sideboard.

[zeus-online]

So, how good is high tide with snapcaster mages and no candelabra?
Possibly with no time spirals either? Has anyone tried, and was it any good?

[feline]

Capsize is definitely not necessary, in testing I played a number of games and only once did "capsize into candel for infinite mana, into capsize into top for infinite card draw" did that ever actually make a win when getting anything else would have netted a fizzle. So yes it "can" make a difference but it's gonna be like 1 game on average per open.

It does save time though, and if you love your fellow judges, they appreciate a High Tide deck that doesn't go that far over time. A minute or 2 is expected as there is always some matches still going, but I don't ever want to be the last game still going and the entire room is waiting on you.

I wouldn't recommend Snapcaster as it is anti synergetic with Time Spiral. Though to note before I got Candels I did have Snapcasters in the deck for like a month, mostly to try them out.

If you do go Snapcaster Mage, you could look at Cloud of Faeries / Snap tricks too, as Snap can make mana, Snapcaster can net you another card, & Cloud of Faeries can net mana, or draw you a card (cycle 2).

[zeus-online]

If you do go Snapcaster Mage, you could look at Cloud of Faeries / Snap tricks too, as Snap can make mana, Snapcaster can net you another card, & Cloud of Faeries can net mana, or draw you a card (cycle 2).

Yes, thats what i was considering. Snap and/or reset to untap. Meditate to draw cards, snapcasters could also make a more controllish approach possible.

Oh, and it can win at instant speed too!

[ScatmanX]

Just search for the Solidarity thread...

[zeus-online]

Just search for the Solidarity thread...

You see, i thought this was the Solidarity thread :P
Legacy decks need better naming i think.

[clavio]

You see, i thought this was the Solidarity thread :P
Legacy decks need better naming i think.

Wait, if you knew it was called Solidarity and you didn't go to the Solidarity thread, how would having a better name help? Get off of my porch.

[zeus-online]

Wait, if you knew it was called Solidarity and you didn't go to the Solidarity thread, how would having a better name help? Get off of my porch.

Because, i thought that legacy high tide was called solidarity.

When i saw this thread i figured that legacy players worldwide decided that high tide was a better name for the deck (Which it is!) ;)

I did not know that there was two distinct variants of legacy high tide.