[Deck] UWR Delver

[DredgingLoam]

Has anyone tried or thought of Dack Fayden? He seems good against any Stoneforge mirror, randomly good against painter ( take your grindstone :P), and can help you filter soft counters drawn late into removal or threats. His ultimate turns a bolt into a Goyf or turn a Pyroblast into a Liliana. Not sure where the room for him is, but it seems nifty.

[potatodavid]

What are y'alls thoughts on the builds that trim two Wastelands for a Snow-Covered Island, and Snow-Covered Plains? Obviously makes the deck not as volunerable to Stifle and Bloodmoon, but is it worth it?

Also,
I'm assuming they are just Snow-Lands for style, right? Is there an obscure interaction I'm missing?

I have won too many games by going:
Blue land, delver,
Turn 2, flip delver, wasteland, attack 3. Waste their 1 land.
Turn 3. Attack 3, Wasteland, waste their 1 land.
turn 4. Attack, SFM. They conceded.

Wasteland is too good to go less than 4. If someone is wasting a stifle on my wasteland trigger, I'm already winning.

[potatodavid]

Has anyone tried or thought of Dack Fayden? He seems good against any Stoneforge mirror, randomly good against painter ( take your grindstone :P), and can help you filter soft counters drawn late into removal or threats. His ultimate turns a bolt into a Goyf or turn a Pyroblast into a Liliana. Not sure where the room for him is, but it seems nifty.

He's a meta sideboard call at best. I don't know of any cuts that make him strictly better than anything we're already running. Again entirely a meta call.

[magical-yata]

I have won too many games by going:
Blue land, delver,
Turn 2, flip delver, wasteland, attack 3. Waste their 1 land.
Turn 3. Attack 3, Wasteland, waste their 1 land.
turn 4. Attack, SFM. They conceded.

Wasteland is too good to go less than 4. If someone is wasting a stifle on my wasteland trigger, I'm already winning.

I wouldn't call somebody stone raining you for 1 mana "wasting a stifle". The problem is that only works if you are on the play. You are just as likely to get blown out by their Wastelands and Turn 1 Delver. The deck is also just dead to Blood Moon which makes the two basics a bit more appealing to me.

[lambert101]

I have been thinking about coming back to this deck. I am thinking about either trying stifle or grim lavamancer main. When thinking about stifle, I am using it to progress into the mid-game where this deck usually stabilizes. List I am thinking about is as follows:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


3 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear//Tear

[Kamus]

Want to use Stifle? Play RUG!

I don't believe Stifle runs well in this deck. Stifle is a pure-tempo card and it fits perfectly in RUG Delver. Stoneforge Mystic, equipments and True-name Nemesis are slow cards, they shine in mid-game concept, but don't have the same pressure as a tarmogoyf in early game. So I prefer to not use Stifles, I keep 20 lands (2 more than RUG) because the mana curve is higher. Of course there wil be games that you play this as a tempo deck (generally with early delvers), but many times you'll get to go to mid-game.
I think 19 lands are OK if you're running 3 Gitaxian Probe, although I prefer to use the 4th Pierce, 4th StP and 9th fetchland. The extra fetchland decreases my chance of mana denial and it's and extra card for perfect brainstorms, StP is the best spot-removal in Legacy, so I can't see reason to not use 4-of, and I really love Spell Pierce protecting my delvers of removals and it's great even in mid-game, countering Liliana and Jace BUT I'm not sure what's the best number of copies in maindeck (3 or 4).

I'm using the classic Owen's list.

[potatodavid]

Want to use Stifle? Play RUG!

I don't believe Stifle runs well in this deck. Stifle is a pure-tempo card and it fits perfectly in RUG Delver. Stoneforge Mystic, equipments and True-name Nemesis are slow cards, they shine in mid-game concept, but don't have the same pressure as a tarmogoyf in early game. So I prefer to not use Stifles, I keep 20 lands (2 more than RUG) because the mana curve is higher. Of course there wil be games that you play this as a tempo deck (generally with early delvers), but many times you'll get to go to mid-game.
I think 19 lands are OK if you're running 3 Gitaxian Probe, although I prefer to use the 4th Pierce, 4th StP and 9th fetchland. The extra fetchland decreases my chance of mana denial and it's and extra card for perfect brainstorms, StP is the best spot-removal in Legacy, so I can't see reason to not use 4-of, and I really love Spell Pierce protecting my delvers of removals and it's great even in mid-game, countering Liliana and Jace BUT I'm not sure what's the best number of copies in maindeck (3 or 4).

I'm using the classic Owen's list.

I have tested stifle now twice. It is only good on the play if you do not have a delver. In almost every case where I have played it, I was turn 1 thoughseized off a nonfetched dual. I do not like it in UWR delver.

[magical-yata]

I have tested stifle now twice. It is only good on the play if you do not have a delver. In almost every case where I have played it, I was turn 1 thoughseized off a nonfetched dual. I do not like it in UWR delver.

I tested Stifle against last night and it absolutely blew up in my face. I didn't Stifle a single fetchland all night, and sideboarded them out in every single matchup. I'm now back at the stock Owen list.

[potatodavid]

I tested Stifle against last night and it absolutely blew up in my face. I didn't Stifle a single fetchland all night, and sideboarded them out in every single matchup. I'm now back at the stock Owen list.

Yeah in short, don't run it. It is garbage in our list.

[magical-yata]

Yeah in short, don't run it. It is garbage in our list.

3 UWR in the Top 8 of SCG NY and Jared Boetcher running 3 Stifle in his list who is in the Top 4 right now so maybe I wasn't too far off.

[Kamus]

3 UWR in the Top 8 of SCG NY and Jared Boetcher running 3 Stifle in his list who is in the Top 4 right now so maybe I wasn't too far off.

I don't use stifle in my patriot, but I think it's still better than gitaxian probe.
If you want to use stifle, I think 3 copies should work. I like this list:

8 fecthlands
4 tundra
3 volcanic
4 waste

4 delver
4 SFM
2 TNN
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Pierce
3 Stifle
3 StP
4 Bolt

[goblinsplayer]

Just got 5th place in SCG Syracuse but lost my quarterfinals match to BUG Delver. Oh well, I still had a good run.

[magical-yata]

Just got 5th place in SCG Syracuse but lost my quarterfinals match to BUG Delver. Oh well, I still had a good run.

Sweet. How did you like playing the Probe list vs the Standard Owen list? Also, were there any sideboard cards you felt didn't pull their weight?

[goblinsplayer]

Sweet. How did you like playing the Probe list vs the Standard Owen list? Also, were there any sideboard cards you felt didn't pull their weight?

Probes were pretty great. There were a good amount of games where I would have played differently without perfect information. Many times I saw a hand with two lands and I just wastelanded their second land and they were just not able to do anything for a good part of the game. All the sideboard cards however, pulled their weight quite a bit, except for maybe grim lavamancer. I would honestly not change a thing about this list and keep playing it as it is.

[potatodavid]

Just got 5th place in SCG Syracuse but lost my quarterfinals match to BUG Delver. Oh well, I still had a good run.

We happen to be the slowest of all the delvers but 5th place is not too shabby. Good job!

[SansSerif]

Has anyone tried playing without Daze? Daze is a good card in an opening hand when on the play. But on the draw or in the mid to late game I always hate seeing it. This is especially true for UWR Delver. Because we lack stifle, Deathrite and even Hymn, we have no way to get ahead in mana sources, a fact that is compounded by our higher mana curve.

I am thinking of replacing daze by uping the number of Spellpierces and adding some number of hard counters, such as SpellSnare.

Thoughts?

[Kamus]

Has anyone tried playing without Daze? Daze is a good card in an opening hand when on the play. But on the draw or in the mid to late game I always hate seeing it. This is especially true for UWR Delver. Because we lack stifle, Deathrite and even Hymn, we have no way to get ahead in mana sources, a fact that is compounded by our higher mana curve.

I am thinking of replacing daze by uping the number of Spellpierces and adding some number of hard counters, such as SpellSnare.

Thoughts?

Daze is the second best counter of Legacy and all Delver decks should use it. Although UWR is a bit slower than classic RUG, it's far away to be a hard control deck, as miracles. UWR is midrange, it's very good in early game, decent in mid game and terrible in late game. You NEED to use 4 dazes in main deck, believe me. It's a very powerful card in early game to protect your creatures, counter early combos and big guys, like Jace, hardcast FoW, hardcast batterskull, in many cases. I think there are "some" cards which never should be out of the build:
19 lands (I prefer 20 because I don't like Probes, but it runs with 19)
BS, Ponder, FoW, Daze, Bolt, Delver, SFM (4-of)
2 TNN, 1 skull, 1 jitte
at least 3 piercers and 3 plowshares

In other words, you can choose only 3 cards to change the deck, cause this 57 are must-have.
Usual choices:
. 1 pierce, 1 plowshares, 1 fecthland (extras)
. 3 Probes
. 3 Stifle

[potatodavid]

Daze is the second best counter of Legacy and all Delver decks should use it. Although UWR is a bit slower than classic RUG, it's far away to be a hard control deck, as miracles. UWR is midrange, it's very good in early game, decent in mid game and terrible in late game. You NEED to use 4 dazes in main deck, believe me. It's a very powerful card in early game to protect your creatures, counter early combos and big guys, like Jace, hardcast FoW, hardcast batterskull, in many cases. I think there are "some" cards which never should be out of the build:
19 lands (I prefer 20 because I don't like Probes, but it runs with 19)
BS, Ponder, FoW, Daze, Bolt, Delver, SFM (4-of)
2 TNN, 1 skull, 1 jitte
at least 3 piercers and 3 plowshares

In other words, you can choose only 3 cards to change the deck, cause this 57 are must-have.
Usual choices:
. 1 pierce, 1 plowshares, 1 fecthland (extras)
. 3 Probes
. 3 Stifle

I completely agree with the need for daze in the deck. I've actually dropped 1 and gone to 3 Daze and 3 Spell Pierce, To make room for 2 Judge's Familiar. I've really really enjoyed Judge's Familiar in the deck so far.

[Vandalize]

I really like Snapcaster Mage as a 2-of in my 3-flex-slots. They can re-use removal and cantrips, and additional bodies to carry equipment is always welcome in this deck. Of course it's bad with Rest in Peace, but so is Grim Lavamancer.

My current list:
Lands [20]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures [12]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells [28]
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard [15]
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear Tear
1 SoFF/SoFI (depends on what I expect to face)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

I tested Stifles and Gitaxian Probe. Stifles were bad, this deck doesn't have the clock that RUG does. And we often spend our first turn either casting Delver/Cantrip, or using removal to your foe's T1 play (we do play more removal than RUG).

Gitaxian Probe was fine. Reducing lands to 19 is always great, and knowing how to play your spells by getting free info is also pretty valuable.

[potatodavid]

I really like Snapcaster Mage as a 2-of in my 3-flex-slots. They can re-use removal and cantrips, and additional bodies to carry equipment is always welcome in this deck. Of course it's bad with Rest in Peace, but so is Grim Lavamancer.

My current list:
Lands [20]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures [12]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells [28]
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard [15]
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear Tear
1 SoFF/SoFI (depends on what I expect to face)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

I tested Stifles and Gitaxian Probe. Stifles were bad, this deck doesn't have the clock that RUG does. And we often spend our first turn either casting Delver/Cantrip, or using removal to your foe's T1 play (we do play more removal than RUG).

Gitaxian Probe was fine. Reducing lands to 19 is always great, and knowing how to play your spells by getting free info is also pretty valuable.

If someone is running R.I.P. against us... they have no idea what the hell they're doing. Just beat their face with their wasted turn.