All B/R update speculation.

[Darkenslight]

You are probably correct. If they were concerned about timing, the card would have been dealt with already.

Indeed - it's somewhat rare that Top is the primary cause for matches going to time. Yes, it takes some time out of the match (3-5mins/game unless someone tanks), but of those players who end up in feature matches, only two that I've seen across the board have been what I'd consider 'problematic'. Everyone else has usually been remarkably quick with their decisions.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Indeed - it's somewhat rare that Top is the primary cause for matches going to time. Yes, it takes some time out of the match (3-5mins/game unless someone tanks), but of those players who end up in feature matches, only two that I've seen across the board have been what I'd consider 'problematic'. Everyone else has usually been remarkably quick with their decisions.

I rarely take more than 5-10 seconds to activate a Top, so I've never been able to understand why people think it's some huge time waster.

[Dice_Box]

Because not everyone is skilled with it. Add Top, Fetch and othe shuffle effects to a deck and it can really eat time. Watch a new player with Miracles one day, it's not fun.

[blackheartz]

Hey guys!! Long time player but sadly first time poster here. Here are some thoughts on the B/R list:

Generally I do not want to see cards banned unless absolutely necessary. Also some cards should be considered for unbanning.

Suspect cards
Show and Tell: The card is extremely powerful, but this is Legacy and it is neither dominating nor hurting the format. Sneak&Show is not even the most played nor the most successful combo deck. Moreover while it is one of those cards that technically become more powerful with new cards I believe we are now on the top of its pl carve. Wizards has to try hard to top Griselbrand or Emrakul on powerlevel. The Omniscience variant may not even be a tier 1.5 deck. Maybe someday it will be banworthy but it is not now.

Brainstorm: It is the best card in the format when combined with shuffle effects. I have no problem with this for now. The decks that run the blue package(cantrips+counters) belong to all archetypes and there are still many non-blue viable decks. As cab0747 said the issue must initially be tackled by printing quality BS hate and good, not too easily splashable cards(Maybe actually good non-blue pitch spells that can interact with combo??). Most of the current top decks are stretched thin with their manabases.


Considered for unbanning
Mind Twist: It could come off the list. It will give a nice boost to artifact decks, although I am not sure how big. Also Elves can include it.

Survival: It would certaintly not take over the format and would add another viable deck. Also for those who hate decks with blue in them you must know that 90% of the decks that run it will be UG or UGx Survival.

Mystical Tutor(Because it was mentioned): Nope. It will push combo even with a banned brainstorm.

[rlesko]

While the numbers right now may not be crazy, I think Griselbrand is the biggest oppressor in Legacy. Prior to him, you could Karakas or O-Ring most of the popular SnT or reanimator targets. This gave nonblue decks good tools to fight the combo decks which is good for a balanced meta. With grisel, they just draw 7-14 cards in response and they don't care if you Karakas (for example) it. Its already overwhelming card advantage. Since not all colors can fight with things on the stack, and once Grisel hits play its GG, I think hes the most oppressive card in Legacy (in terms of invalidating other strategies). You need to either play counterspells to fight him or you pretty much lose.

[Julian23]

I rarely take more than 5-10 seconds to activate a Top, so I've never been able to understand why people think it's some huge time waster.

The next level or awareness seeing beyond your own experiences.

[danyul]

Julian is dropping some wisdom bombs today.

[Darkenslight]

The next level or awareness seeing beyond your own experiences.

One of these days, I'm going to find an artist who will alter my SDT to the Next Level Top.

[AggroControl]

I rarely take more than 5-10 seconds to activate a Top, so I've never been able to understand why people think it's some huge time waster.

It's watching people activate top at the end of every turn, sometimes in conjunction with a fetch and another activation. It's really rare for somebody to actually take more than 10 seconds or so to put the cards back on top except during the activations after a fetch.

[cab0747]

I rarely take more than 5-10 seconds to activate a Top, so I've never been able to understand why people think it's some huge time waster.

Not everyone is quick. I have played against some people that take much longer than I tihnk they should when they top. To add to the time they waste topping, not everyone is a fast player either.

I guess some bad expereiences playing against slow players has left me jaded. It is a shame too... I have everything but the counterbalances for miracles but I have refused to pick it up because some of these players have left such a bad taste in my mouth for it

Maybe I should be more open to this deck in general...

[Darkenslight]

Not everyone is quick. I have played against some people that take much longer than I tihnk they should when they top. To add to the time they waste topping, not everyone is a fast player either.

I guess some bad expereiences playing against slow players has left me jaded. It is a shame too... I have everything but the counterbalances for miracles but I have refused to pick it up because some of these players have left such a bad taste in my mouth for it

Maybe I should be more open to this deck in general...

Join the Dark Side of the metagame!

...But yes, it takes a lot of experience to play SDT correctly and swiftly.

[Adryan]

I just want to drop a few words about the Brainstorm crusade. Yes blue is the most dominant color in Legacy, because with blue you have game against every deck and even if you ban Brainstorm, nothing will change. You have to ban the following cards if you want non blue decks to do as well:

- Lotus Petal
- Ancient Tomb
- City of Traitors
-Lions Eye Diamond
- Dark Ritual
- Rite of Flame
- Show&Tell
- Reanimate
-Cephalid Coliseum
-Breakthrough
etc.

So it's clearly a design problem. Give non blue colors a way to fight combo decks with maindeckable cards, and less blue will be played. Banning Brainstorm isn't a simple solution, because no one knows how good combo decks will be. And even if combo decks don't become stronger, you can still be pretty sure that Zoo, Maverick etc. are still dead, because of an abundance of good cards that suppress these decks.

Brainstorm is a consistency tool, but the best card which provides the biggest boost in consistency is actually a non blue card: SDT. People who don't want to play blue, should actually start building better decks. I still don't understand why Jund doesn't run 3 Sylvan Libraries in the maindeck. I've done so whenever i played it, but I got too tired of losing to almost every combo deck.

[iamajellydonut]

I still don't understand why Jund doesn't run 3 Sylvan Libraries in the maindeck. I've done so whenever i played it, but I got too tired of losing

That's why Jund doesn't run three Sylvan Libraries.

[Barook]

So it's clearly a design problem. Give non blue colors a way to fight combo decks with maindeckable cards, and less blue will be played. Banning Brainstorm isn't a simple solution, because no one knows how good combo decks will be. And even if combo decks don't become stronger, you can still be pretty sure that Zoo, Maverick etc. are still dead, because of an abundance of good cards that suppress these decks.

Brainstorm is a consistency tool, but the best card which provides the biggest boost in consistency is actually a non blue card: SDT. People who don't want to play blue, should actually start building better decks. I still don't understand why Jund doesn't run 3 Sylvan Libraries in the maindeck. I've done so whenever i played it, but I got too tired of losing to almost every combo deck.

Every combo deck running blue would be hit as well, to the point people whine their deck dies without Brainstorm. Only nonblue combo (e.g. Belcher, Elves) would get a slight boost. Counters don't simply disappear without Brainstorm and neither do quality cantrips, except the blue player can't Brainstorm in response to anything anymore.

There are very good reasons why SDT and Library don't even come close to BS numbers.

Library is good, but it has its drawbacks, like the second and third copy being totally dead and being card disadvantage until it actually draws you something (one might overlook the card disadvantage with the higher card quality it provides, even without the draw). Brainstorm is much cheaper and faster while never beind dead, no matter how many copies you draw. SDT has similiar problems - the drawbacks are less severe than with Library due to more and faster uses and replacing excess copies more easily at the cost of being much more mana-intensive in the long run.

[kingsey]

Am I alone in thinking that with brainstorm banned miracles would become unstoppable?

[Barook]

Am I alone in thinking that with brainstorm banned miracles would become unstoppable?

How so? If anything, it would weaken Miracles since they lose one of their options to set up a miracle. E.g. D&T would likely get even more ground in the match-up than it already has (if it didn't get eaten alived by strenghtened Elves!).

[SevenInTheQueue]

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon

These all seem like relatively safe cards to begin addressing (from the POV of WotC). Given the current card-pool, none of these options seem too oppressive.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon

These all seem like relatively safe cards to begin addressing (from the POV of WotC). Given the current card-pool, none of these options seem too oppressive.

Unbanning Survival of the Fittest would really, really shake up the format. I honestly don't know if it's too powerful, Caleb Durward seemed to think so when he did his "Banned-series".

[Darkenslight]

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon

These all seem like relatively safe cards to begin addressing (from the POV of WotC). Given the current card-pool, none of these options seem too oppressive.

OF these, the only one I'd be wary of was Survival. WGD has the potential to be degenerate, but what worked with it was Bazaar, which is banned in Legacy.

[bakofried]

It would definitely hurt the power of Terminus, and is no more broken than other lines of play available.