Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

[hdeck12]

@TvGuy12: (Sweet number on your handle) Well done! I was at the tournament playing Caleb/Nescient's take on prophetic flamespeaker stompy. I was very disappointed I didn't play Big Red after having to attack with 1/x and 2/x creatures all day. However I was elated when you stomped one of my friends with an all too familiar pile, and then double elated when you landed just out of top 8. I really like most of your card choices, but I want to hear you defend a couple.

4th city of traitors. Can you elaborate on that? My position is that you draw too many hands with multiples, or hands where you have to gamble on city/guide/moon. Thoughts?

Griselbrands. I've heard plenty of arguments for/against him. You played 4 so you're clearly for him, and as a 4 of at that. Any math behind that or just a gut instinct?

Fetchlands. 3 seems like an odd number. (haha, it's 100% an odd number) Whats your logic on why not 7 or 0? I've always felt with no deck manipulation, the 1 point of life was more important than the 1 less land in the deck, whats your take?

Sulfur Elemental. Sure he's the nuts against d&t. Do you use him for anything else? I've always thought that matchup was in our favor and didn't deserve board cards. With it's popularity continually growing, maybe it just shores things up, anyways I'm curious to hear what you did with him.

Again, Congrats! Hope you continue to enjoy Big Red as much as the rest of us here. And if anyone wants to comment on my questions for TvGuy, please do! I haven't put too much time into magic theory lately, but there's a legacy GP coming up so lets get back into it.
-H

[TheArchitect]

Fetchlands. 3 seems like an odd number. (haha, it's 100% an odd number) Whats your logic on why not 7 or 0? I've always felt with no deck manipulation, the 1 point of life was more important than the 1 less land in the deck, whats your take?

I think having the fetchlands here is actually a pretty big downside. You can get a lot of free wins off of slamming blood moon on turn 1, and often even turn 2. But the decks that loses to moon the most are usually the ones that also run DRS, and giving them ways to play around blood moon (fetches in the GY) seems like a bad idea. There is no noticeable upside of the fetches, but there is major downsides: DRS, stifle and life loss.

[tvguy12!!]

@TvGuy12: (Sweet number on your handle) Well done! I was at the tournament playing Caleb/Nescient's take on prophetic flamespeaker stompy. I was very disappointed I didn't play Big Red after having to attack with 1/x and 2/x creatures all day. However I was elated when you stomped one of my friends with an all too familiar pile, and then double elated when you landed just out of top 8. I really like most of your card choices, but I want to hear you defend a couple.

4th city of traitors. Can you elaborate on that? My position is that you draw too many hands with multiples, or hands where you have to gamble on city/guide/moon. Thoughts?

Griselbrands. I've heard plenty of arguments for/against him. You played 4 so you're clearly for him, and as a 4 of at that. Any math behind that or just a gut instinct?

Fetchlands. 3 seems like an odd number. (haha, it's 100% an odd number) Whats your logic on why not 7 or 0? I've always felt with no deck manipulation, the 1 point of life was more important than the 1 less land in the deck, whats your take?

Sulfur Elemental. Sure he's the nuts against d&t. Do you use him for anything else? I've always thought that matchup was in our favor and didn't deserve board cards. With it's popularity continually growing, maybe it just shores things up, anyways I'm curious to hear what you did with him.

Again, Congrats! Hope you continue to enjoy Big Red as much as the rest of us here. And if anyone wants to comment on my questions for TvGuy, please do! I haven't put too much time into magic theory lately, but there's a legacy GP coming up so lets get back into it.
-H

-I have found that you mulligian hard in this deck no matter what. The four of city of traitors is a neccsary evil in order to faciltae the early hate plan or to force a spell through soft permission. Wasteland and awkward draws are obviously a bicth with this but in my experience it's usually worth it. Always jam the hate cards as early as possible. They either get locked out or they waste a counter.
2-Mainly instinct, but he can win you game other fat can't, fill up my pyromancy draws,flings well enough at my opponents face when using pyromancy, and usually buries your opponent in advantage.
3-I run the fecthlands(could be 4) because I hate getting Fatesealed by Jace the money sculptor,and i feel the thinning helps some. I also do it because many time you can mental nudge your opponent into thinking you are on Sneak and show or something else. The games you lose to these lands being stifled are almost nonexistent. If your opponent knows what your on they are likely saving it for something better unless your mana screwed.You rarely get too mana screwed(flooding is a different story)and I find that the games that I lose because of 1 life (compared to the 2 I take from ancient tombs) are negligible.I could see running more fecthlands but i like having a fair amount of basics to always luck into hard casting inferno titans or to have three for pyromancy activations.
4-I saw that D&T won previously, and my friends play it a lot. Sulfur elemental wrecks them and gives me an uncounterable threat that can be relevant in certain miracles/Blades decks.Really it was just a meta game call.-
5- I played the deck because I' enjoy playing something other than the same 75 all the time and really like playing chalice of the void against every other combo deck and delver ;)

[lilevo]

Do you think that adding Pyroblast or Magus of the Moon to the board in place of the Sulfur Elementals is the correct call in a meta you are expecting Delver and Miracles the right call?

[Darkenslight]

Do you think that adding Pyroblast or Magus of the Moon to the board in place of the Sulfur Elementals is the correct call in a meta you are expecting Delver and Miracles the right call?

I'm guessing here, but I'd still keep the Sulfurs in against Miracles, as it shrinks all of their Angels from Entreat. Against Delver, though, I think it's sort of relevant, but it keeps their Magus hate relevant, such as Bolt.

[tvguy12!!]

I'm guessing here, but I'd still keep the Sulfurs in against Miracles, as it shrinks all of their Angels from Entreat. Against Delver, though, I think it's sort of relevant, but it keeps their Magus hate relevant, such as Bolt.

;) I could swap them out for something else. I thought their would be a fair amount of Death&taxes so i put them in. I avoid pyroblast because of chalice of the void. I could be wrong. Magus of the moat is interesting but i like blood moon better main, could go either way on the magus. ;)

[kingtk3]

I'm guessing here, but I'd still keep the Sulfurs in against Miracles, as it shrinks all of their Angels from Entreat. Against Delver, though, I think it's sort of relevant, but it keeps their Magus hate relevant, such as Bolt.

Sulfur elemental shrinks only constitution but it increases strength, so it doesn't really shrinks angels, it buffs them instead.
Anyway it's still decent against miracles because of flash and incounterability.

[Daize]

I know you guys are probably way past this, but this is just hilarious past sb against a lands deck:
Hand 1: mountain, lotus petal, Stronghold Gambit, Griselbrand, Seething Song and other stuff. Playing Mountain and Lotus Petal, getting Griselbrand into play with Stronghold Gambit..
Drawing into Emrakul, another Grisel, 3 Simian Spirit Guides, a lotus petal and another Seething Song... and 2 Through The Breaches..
Exactly enough mana for a Through The Breach spliced onto another Through the Breach, for Emrakul and Griselbrand, swing on my first turn for 22 =/.

Holy cow this 0_0.

[kingtk3]

I understand your enthusiasm: this deck is capable of insane, ultra flashy starts!
However the biggest enemy of this deck is itself, aka mulligan into oblivion

[xdavisx]

I'm a little late but i just wanted to stop in and express how stoked i was to see tvguy12!! in the top 16

[Daize]

Sulfur elemental shrinks only constitution but it increases strength, so it doesn't really shrinks angels, it buffs them instead.
Anyway it's still decent against miracles because of flash and incounterability.

I'm not sure if I get this. Also, I find Miracles and delver to be a tough matchup (or I'm just a novice - either way, tips are welcome :-)). Is there any matchup write-up somewhere, or any ideas?

[penmanship]

I have been trying to build a version of this as well and wondered what are the bad match ups are?

[hdeck12]

@Daize: Have you read through the whole thread? There should be some general overviews, and most of the tournament reports have SB info in them. I know I have a file somewhere on my computer, might not have posted it on here but PM me if you're serious.

@Penminship: Hands down, reanimator is the hardest matchup, but you will straight up SMASH elves all day long. Watching their face when you cast inferno titan has to be one of my favorite things about this deck. For me BUG delver is tough, but I've been cutting moons left and right. The higher your moon count, the easier it gets. Steer clear of Omni builds, you need to get a little lucky to win that matchup. Ensnaring bridge decks are a pain, at least we can't lose to painter game 1. Anything playing a full suite of counters (Daze, Pierce, FOW) can be tough. I also don't play defense grid, all blue matchups get easier with grid. You're usually fine as long as you play around the soft counters and don't be aggressive. If they flip a delver on turn two, you've got work to do, but isn't that the case with any deck? Miracles shouldn't be too bad. We're good against counterbalance and spell snare running 3, 4 and 5 ccs, and that just leaves FOW and a lone c.spell to get through game 1. Cast your spirit guides in this one, otherwise they'll slam a Jace and run away with the game. 3sphere is really good against them too (my defense grid).

I think I'm about to go down the sulfur elemental rd this weekend and see how he does. Happy smashing.

[Daize]

Evan, you should make it and crush face with it. I never even thought about how top was harder to deal with. In playing top no ones ever tried to destroy it so I almost forgot its because its hard to kill, not because its irrelevant.

Problem Cards
Iona, Shield of Emeria means count your land, if it's less than 9, scoop and go to the next game.
Gaddock Teeg means you can no longer cast any sneak/pyromancy effects in your deck.
Matchups (Cards that influence them)
Bad Matchups (Number of 'stompy' artifacts): Absolute worst matchup is reanimator. As long as they're playing an Iona that is, I would never play reanimator without an iona so I just expect all my opponents to have one. Mono blue fringe decks are pretty troublesome too. Something like Hivemind, Dreamhalls, Omniscience. Anything that can kill the turn it goes off AND use counterspells/discard is our hard matchup. Sneak/Show isn't as bad because they have to attack and we're just as prepared to block as we are attack. I hate sitting down across from TES, Spy, Belcher, and High Tide. Those are the decks I expect to run into in the current meta.
Neutral Matchups (Number of 'moon' effects): 3 color tempo/control. RUg, BUg, Junk, Esper, Jund. The ones playing delver and the full suite of soft counters are the hardest. If they flip a turn 1 delver with protection you're in trouble. If they can't pressure you then their one FOW and/or Discard spell is never enough. The Blade control decks are much easier than the delver tempo ones. KOTR into wastes isn't as bad as a lot of counters since we have the guides and rituals to supplement mana.
Good Matchups (number of rituals and draw effects): Burn, Elves,, Goblins, D&T. When it comes to monocolor we're the fastest. Decks that try to grind out the opponent or go over the top in the long game are pretty easy too. Anything with punishing fire, veteran explorer or goblin bombardment, usually don't last long enough to get get their engine running.

Defense Grid...necessary in the 75. With a faster format, and more swamps beating down the islands, I have moved these to the board. I still believe in the full package of 4, but the SB is more appropriate now. At worst it'll draw out a Force of Will and blue card, at best it'll turn off your opponents entire hand.


SB, 4 defense Grid + 5 Graveyard hate is a good place to start. I've given up on leylines. Leyline of Sanctity is good against discard, but with all the tops, discard isn't much of a problem. If you're only using it to combat storm, 20 goblins can still attack you and there are better answers. Trinisphere to be precise, which also does a lot of work against Enter the infinite, Omniscience, and Dream Halls. Leyline of the Void is good because it's a free win against dredge, and doesn't interact with Thoughtseize or FOW against Reanimator, BUT still causes bad mulligans and dead draws. Reanimator is still the worst matchup, bring some grave hate or at least Karakas because Iona, shield of emeria will make you cry. Grafdigger's Cage is cool because it also keeps Green Sun's Zenith from finding Teeg or anything in Elves. Keep us updated on your thoughts and plans. Stompy for life!

1. Miracles
+REB/Pyros +Trinisphere +Chaos Warp
-Seething Song (you have time) -Faithless Looting -Inferno Titan (low impact)

2. Delver
+REB/Pyro +Pyroclasm
-Seething Song (Daze) -Faithless Looting -Griselbrand (Stifle)

3. Landstill
+REB/Pyro
-Seething Song (you have time)

4. Maverick
+Pyroclasm
-Griselbrand (legends are bad...)

1. VS high discarding deck --> chalice at 1 is an answer but not enough, any ideas?

On the draw getting thoughtseized then Hymned, suuuucks. Chalice does nothing against this line. It's only really good at fighting discard on the play or in a long game. Leyline of sanctity is the superstar here. Depending on your meta, 4 can fit into the sideboard. If you wanna splash so you can cast them a few fetches and plateaus won't kill your mana base.

2. VS Ensnaring Bridge --> piromacy and chaos warp are good solution, but we do not have tutor or cantrip; sometimes is difficult to find it

Pyromancy and Warp have to be enough. There just aren't enough spaces in the deck to fight a card that sees such little play. (I may be wrong on the amount of play it sees but I've run into is VERY rarely)

And what about the main questions obout how to play this deck

1. Crystal Ball / Sensei+fetch or not?

Sensei's and fetch are out of you're using a full set of chalices. however sensei's is better than ball in every way possible. Ball kinda sucks, but until we find something better I'm using it as a 1 of for filtering. Someone mentioned Magma jet, may be an option since it at least kills stuff too.

2. Trinisphere main or side?

Depends on your meta. I like 1 main and the other 3 board. One is hardly ever terrible, but 2 in game 1 are usually worthless.

3. Against Blue siding in pyro/reb you side out chalice?

This is the question I've been trying to find an answer to through testing. Currently I'm siding out 3 chalices if I bring in blast. If I draw the one left, I make sure to set it on something other than 1. Depends what they're playing. Stopping cantrips is sweet, but stopping game winning cards is more important.

4. Any artifact removal in side?

No. We pretty much walk over artifact decks. Sometimes we lose to equipment but in those games an artifact destruction spell wouldn't usually turn the tide anyways. The chaos warp is a catch all. If you expect a heavy artifact meta, shattering spree and shatterstorm both fit in this deck real well and do massive work.

5. Any grave hate in side?

Yes...sort of. I play 1 grafdiggers cage and 1 tormods crypt. I may cut the crypt if I end up with 2 maindeck karakas. Reanimator is our toughest matchup. You can either pack your board with grave hate since it's a hard match to win, or you can hope to dodge it since deathrite is keeping it in check. Personally I like cage since it doubles against GSZ/Natural Order, but they don't do much in multiples so I like to vary my options.

agreed, the primer should be updated.

I guess this is still relevant :-). Also, congratulations everyone in this year and past, it's amazing to see how much fun you guys are seeming to have ^_^.

By the way, why Pyroclasm over Volcanic Fallout?

Also, one thing I'm not clear on is: STD or no STD?

[Ziveeman]

I guess this is still relevant :-)

By the way, why Pyroclasm over Volcanic Fallout?

Easier to cast - sometimes the second red would force you to burn a Simian Spirit Guide or Petal...or you may only have Sol lands and no second red. The 2 damage dealt to them isn't nearly as relevant since you mostly likely go over the top and overkill anyway. In fact, the 2 damage may even hurt you if you are in a "racing" situation.

[Daize]

Yeah I was thinking against Delver with counter backup... I see your point though.

[kingtk3]

I'm not sure if I get this. Also, I find Miracles and delver to be a tough matchup (or I'm just a novice - either way, tips are welcome :-)). Is there any matchup write-up somewhere, or any ideas?

sulfur elemental

What I meant is that it makes angels 5/3, thus bigger.

However, since it has split second, is uncounterable and with flash you can force your opponent to play in its turn or take damage. It's a 3/2 so it can put some clock and may demand a sword to plowshares that otherwise would have targetted a titan/griselbrand/wurm.

In substance is another threat with the flexibility of split second and flash, but beware to the pump effect on the angels.

@hdeck12: it's been a while since my last tournament with big red, but since you are back I may give this deck another try too!!!

[whienot]

Also, one thing I'm not clear on is: STD or no STD?

Lol. You should probably see a doctor.

I'm still a fan of Top. This deck has a lot of assy draws and I prefer to be able to filter through them.

[Daize]

Uhoh. You got me. 0_o.

It's a shame that we need so many sol lands, otherwise splashing black for Extirpate would be helpful against FoW and stuff...

[kingtk3]

Instead of extirpate you could try surgical extraction, but in any case they clash with chalice@1.

Moreover I don't think I would side them in against fow because it's a subpar strategy: it implies that at least one of your spells get countered and doesn't do a thing against other counters (spell pierce, swan song...).
Against those decks I find that trinisphere or defense grid are enough, maybe reb although it's sad with a chalice@1.

Against grave decks, mainly reanimator, one of the best card is faerie macabre because it removes two targets and cannot be countered.
Tormod's crypt are ok too.