why no dark depths of your ownOriginally Posted by TheBoozeCube
why no titans main deck
i would have probably surgicaled dark depths in that game against lands, they don't have a very effective way to kill you out side of marit lage
1) I've looked into Depths, but it just doesn't do enough work for me to justify it. It requires a 2-card combo, puts me down 2-lands, and 90% of the time, I'd rather spend two tutors to find Cloudposts or Eye. I just use Stage as a 13th Post that can occasionally double as a Maze of Ith or reset Glacial Chasm.
2) Titan's a great card, but it's not a great fit for my version of the deck. I'm not running blue, so I can't use S&T to cheat it out. And I'm just splashing green, so producing GG is frequently awkward unless I have a Candelabra out. Instead, I have a higher density of cheap tutors to let me find Posts directly in the first few turns. Ancient Stirrings is particularly important; as my deck is about 80% colorless, Ancient Stirrings is better than Brainstorm for my purposes because it lets me see 5 cards instead of 3 for the same cost. Titan is a colored permanent, so I can't grab it with Ancient Stirrings in the mid- or late game, significantly decreasing the utility of some of my most powerful cards. I've actually been seriously considering cutting Titan from the SB for an Oblivion Stone.
3) I conceded game 1 to Wasteland lock. I had to win games 2 and 3. Even if I removed his only serious win condition in Depths, an active Loam engine would have enabled him to easily stall me until time ran out, costing me the match.
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Snow-Post gets around the problem by running Green Sun's Zenith instead of Ancient Stirrings because resolving Primeval Titan in a deck like this is a difficult card for an opponent to catch up to even if they respond to the Trigger with Swords to Plowshares. I've played your deck before and know your deck is closer to Modern Tron or even MUD-Post, so I know why you opt out of it, but at the same time, generally Titan clinches many more games because he finds what you need when you need it.
That being said, while I can understand why you don't play Primeval Titan, Karn Liberated (at least in the side) is a significant threat that opponents have to solve or be stripped from the game. I've played it in MUD-Post, 12-Post, and Modern Tron, and Karn is powerhouse.
Also, if you want to talk about alternate threats than Primeval Titan or even supplements to the Eldrazi, you should look into what MUD-Post decks play.
- Sundering Titan wrecks color intense decks (especially if you want to combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to give yourself Strip Mine and let all your lands tap for mana).
- Steel Hellkite is a 5/5 flying Powder Keg.
- Wurmcoil Engine is one of the best generic beaters because of huge life swings on a big body (although Thragtusk is useful in that spot as well).
- Lodestone Golem is a rare Taxes with legs (although since you're not playing MUD-Post, you may just want to just stick to Sphere of Resistance since the symmetry is harder to tilt).
Last edited by Mockingbird; 08-27-2014 at 12:30 PM.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
My build definitely has a lower threat density than a lot of lists. Most of the time, this doesn't hinder me too much because I have more ways to find my Eldrazi (more tutors to find Eye of Ugin and Ancient Stirrings to dig deep). But the Primeval Titan in my SB is definitely in a flex slot, and I've been looking at new options.
The main thing I've been considering for that spot lately is Oblivion Stone. A few people at my LGS have taken to playing Dragon Stompy. While K-Grip kills Blood Moon, it doesn't hit Magus of the Moon. I also often need K-Grip to kill Chalice of the Void, as setting it to 1 blanks most of my deck. Usually, the only way I can win this matchup has been to survive long enough to make seven land drops so that I can cast All Is Dust. Exploration is a big help here if I open with it, but it's usually a brick after T2. O-Stone is cheap enough that I can play and activate it before dying to beats and it blows up Chalices too. I figure it's also reasonable against Sneak and Show (which is one of the main reasons I added Titan in the first place), Elves, Goblins, and random decks.
Lodestone Golem is actually a very intriguing idea. Storm has always been my worst matchup besides Lands. It's gotten much, much better since I've gone to my current configuration with 4x Sphere of Resistance. But I'm always looking to improve my odds, since I'm usually going to need to win in 3. And it seems excellent against Elves too.
I've often considered Karn Liberated but never actually tested him. My reasoning for excluding him is that I don't really need much spot removal because All Is Dust wrecks just about everything for the same mana (or less, because the Eye serves as a virtual mana source). What matchups/situations have you found Karn to be particularly useful?
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Bug Delver I'm finding is the worst match up. You want to not play into Daze/Spell Pierce but then you get hit by Hymm to Torach. Needle is a bit overworked since you want to name Wasteland but they also have Liliana and possibly Jace with Abrupt decays.
Elves I think you board in Force of Will and Flusterstorm for Glimpse and Natural Order. Haven't played the match up yet since I just started with this deck a few weeks ago.
Mostly control and big stompy decks: MUD, Mirror, decks where pecking at their hand because they let you live too long gives them never ending grief (Miracles comes to mind). He's not as good against decks that consistently win T3 or sooner (burn, Show and Tell, and storm come to mind) unless they stall out and you get a chance to start draining their resources, but that's not always something to bank on.
Last edited by Mockingbird; 08-31-2014 at 10:29 AM.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
I'm curious if you've ever tried Rings of Brighthearth. I've never tested any build even like what you appear to be trying so I'm just throwing the card out there, but if copying artifact abilities is appealing to you, even at an extra mana, Rings can do all that and more...even allowing corner cases like a double Karakas or Eye of Ugin activation or something.
Adding to what Mockingbird said, I find Karn comes in almost all the time. In fact, I've sort of formed a "best friend team" - to steal a term from Elves - of Karn and Ensnaring Bridge. Basically, when one comes in, I almost always bring in the other. Karn is one of the only playable planeswalkers that, bar none, absolutely wins the game if left unchecked. Unlike, say, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Karn's ultimate can be online on his third turn on the board. Our gameplan can be simply put as "take enough turns to cast the things that win the game", so Karn is just one more "thing to cast that wins the game". Your mileage may vary, but I find it to be quite effective.
I've been testing a mini transformational sideboard to improve the BGx matchups, adding Thespian's Stage and Dark Depth to the mix to have another angle of attack and to force opponents to be careful about how to use their wastelands. In my few tests it looks promising.
I lost against Burn and Maverick a few days ago, running the standard Rock-Lee-List (UG build). Only little changes in the SB. Both MU seem to be difficult? Burn uses Price of Progress during my Upkeep when Chasm leaves battlefield, Maverick destroys Pithing Needle with Pridemage and abuses Knight of the R. to fetch Wastelands / Karakas :-/ Any ideas for SB - improvement?
Has anyone ever tried to play the UG Post build versus affinity? My friend and I had some playtest matches before a tournament where we paired in the final round. Overall between sideboarded matches I think it was affinity 4 UG post 1.
It's essentially 12 must interact with threats while you try to assemble show and tell anything. glacial chasm shuts off the aggro plan, but tezzerator just trumps clasm.
One sideboarded game, I had pithing needle on cranial playing, Krosan grip for a ravager and then took 18 from a tez ultimate lol!
My SB at the moment is:
4x Force of Will
3x Swan Song
1x Pithing Needle
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Flusterstorm
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Krosan Grip
@ Burn: I have a very high win % against burn and the way I defend is by only getting chasm in response to PoP. I find a crop, and hold it and a green up, for the entire game. I'll mull to it sometimes. Meanwhile I guiltlessly pile up GPs to stay afloat until landing a Titan. You typically shouldn't have to chasm so early that it's hard to recover. If SnT is there, great. I board in 4x Force of Will, 2 Fluster, 1 BEB and sometimes Grip if I see Vortex.
@ Maverick: This is a tougher MU but luckily it's rare/a bad deck. I play 3 needle in the 75 and that's a great card. Otherwise fetch out all basics and try and assemble SnT Titan. They usually don't have much pressure. So sitting with uncracked fetches until hardcast Titan isn't a terrible plan. But as you found, needle is no crutch in the MU. Moments peace is great, but your best cards are basic lands and SnT. I bring in 4x Force, 2 Grip, 1 Needle.
@ Affinity: Affinity is a very easy MU, but you're right Tezz Affinity is much different. First, turn 3 SnT almost always out races them. Otherwise, for the aggro plan (all hyper aggro really) I just hold green and crop up for the whole game to avoid big turns, get chasm and move on. For Tezz I always name him with needle, even before I see him. Otherwise ill board in force just for him - he's a very tough card for us to beat. All other cards don't really matter they're pretty weak. Moments peace is again great here too. I like to bring in 4x Force, 2x Grip, 2x EE, and 1 Needle.
These MUs are all very winnable, even before board choices. They just have more specific paths with the MD cards.
For me I like to play 3 total Needle and always board Force of Will. They may not be pinpoint tech against the format, but they really go a long way to beat Janky Teir 2 decks that have one random set of cards that can give you trouble out of nowhere.
What I am having trouble with is Food Chain - anyone else?
So I finally read all 108 pages and I'm ready to post my first post in the post thread! (Say that 3 times fast)
Hey everyone. Been playing magic for about a year but only legacy for a few months. I can't get enough of this deck; it really is a blast to play and this thread has been immensely helpful. Rock lee you are a celebrity to me.
If anyone is curious, "is this deck playable without candelabra" was asked about 8 times.
I've been screen shotting and trying everyone's list as I go along. So far I've been playing with a pretty stock UG list. Looking forward to your next build rock!
Phyrexian Revoker the Food Chain. It's also one of the few decks where you'll get the chance to Mindbreak Trap Emrakul because Misthollow Griffin has to be cast so many times.
I haven't run into it much, but I've played around with it after Rock Lee lost T2 against it's godhand of T2 Emrakul at a major event. In all honesty it's pretty close to us being a control deck that sometimes explodes a lot sooner than anyone was expecting. So right now I treat it like a mirror match: choke their mana (instead of Cloudpost, Food Chain), then grind better than they grind back.
P.S. The most annoying aspect of Food Chain is Force of Will has the perfect blue card to exile, which makes it more utility than control unlike every other deck that plays Force that I can recall.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
G1 vs Food chain is almost always a loss. You can win G1 w/ quick Titan into hardcast Emrakul though (obv.)
SB games is where Phyrexian revoker, FoW/Swan song and K-Grip shine. Only spell that matters is the namesake enchantment.
I have had success vs it personally while repealing their Noble hierarchs and Deathrites aggressively so they don't have mana advantage and dudes in play in case they drop Food chain.
Also, once they are threatening to go off by having a dude in play and access to 3 mana, you need to have your answers (counterspell, k-grip or repeal on dude to buy a turn.)
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As a food chain player I would like to point out that there are some different version of the deck: the most prominent, which is also the oldest, is the one aiming to combo off as fast as possible, thus playing cards like fierce empath and Æthersnipe which are "bad" cards if food chain isn't in play.
The other version is the value build, which opts to play some number of cascades to assemble a critical mass of creatures and value (ancestral vision, manipulate fate) that can win you the game even without food chain.
The former is better at comboing, but food chain combo is slow for legacy and its B plan (aka creatures) is significanly worse. The latter, while having less probabilities to combo because it has to draw naturally both food chain and a fatty, is instad packed with good creatures (shardless, bloodbraid, DRS, vendilion) and it's more like a value deck that can win on the spot if it hits the combo (and even having only griffins and food chain in play it's almost a win).
If you face the first build you can win as you can manage food chain, but if you face the value build you can be trampled by the pure mass of creatures even without them casting food chain.
Ignorance is strength
Has anyone tried Summoning Trap in this deck? Seems like a flashed in Eldrazi or primetime would be pretty good.
Could be considered primetime 5-8?
Never tried the Trap. I think a) it's difficult to find a slot for it, and b) there a only 6 creatures in the deck, so it could often fizzle
For arguments sake top and brainstorm help it out a bit.
Top, Brainstorms, Titans are great cards themselves, but a single Trap needs other cards to be good ;-)
BTW : take a look at See the Unwritten from Khans of Tarkir, looks at 8 cards
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