Played the list in an 87 person event, I was only good enough for 14th. I lost to a top decked Cannonist after resolving an Ad Nauseam and stripping the opponents hand and being forced to pass the turn. I also lost to Miracles, not because of Counterbalance (I dealt with those), but because of a single maindeck Flusterstorm (That he drew) and him drawing a massive amount of counterspells without using Tops/Brainstorms. A little tilting. Beat three Chalice decks without Decay, shocked about that!
that`s very impressive. But I am wondering.. did you play the 3.5 or the 3 Color version?Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
i am willing to try the 3 color version. the manabase is very appealing... so I`ll play the 3c tomorrow to see how it goes.
cheers
3 color. 3 Pyroblast, 3 Needle, and 2 Chain of Vapor with Massacre in the sideboard. I'll note this, there were a few times during the event where I really missed Infernal Tutor in the side. I'm not sure if I'll switch back or not.
I did have a sweet line because of the Massacre slot in the sideboard, it allowed me to side in Grapeshot versus Death and Taxes.
My opener: Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Polluted Delta, Lion's Eye Diamond and Grapeshot. I'm on the play.
Gitaxian Probe (18 life - Storm 1). Draw Lotus Petal.
Gitaxian Probe (16 life - Storm 2). Draw Burning Wish (How lucky!).
Polluted Delta for Volcanic Island (15 life).
Rite of Flame (RR - Storm 3).
Rite of Flame (RRRR - Storm 4).
Lotus Petal (RRRR - Storm 5).
Lion's Eye Diamond (RRRR - Storm 6).
Grapeshot (RR - Storm 7) - Opponent at 13.
Burning Wish (In response break Lion's Eye Diamond for BBB - Storm 8) retrieving Tendrils of Agony.
Use Lotus Petal, Tendrils of Agony (Storm 9).
Yesterday I played Tes again. Same list like the report. Ended 2-2 loosing against 2 good players with miracles. And beating a deathblade with no hymns and nickfit scapeshift.
Vs miracles i started g1. He went land top. And i striped his counters. And went to ad nauseam him. He had a island and a fetch. With another fetch in hand abd blue card. But no counter. I gambled and he found a fow after fetch and I lost. G2 he had an early counterbalance with backup and also an entreat the turn before i could go for it. The few angels where enought for him to win.
Vs the other miracles I was able to win one game with bw into empty. But other 2 games where not so good and grindy. Me desroying all his threads. But loked out due to him playing discard and surgical.
Sidding in grapeshot was really good. Was able to destroy a medling and a jace with the same storm and gained time burning a vendlion down. Im not sure if
+3 decay
+2 pithing
+1 grape
-1 mox
-1 empty
-4 ponder
Or also may be removing all moxen and letting 2 ponders could be fine. I got really sad every time i drew a mox. And having more cantrips could be ok. So idk for sure. Both configurations vs miracles seemed nice.
Pithing was great. Problem its is a card u have to draw early. Sometimes after he the lock it was sad to draw. But t1-2 its a great card. One time i got rid of a fow with it. But my opp had still fluster and scm. So no option.
Vs the scapeshift deck I didnt dided g2 the enlty but g3. G2 i lost cause i did 10 goblins and therapy his pernicius away. But the deck plays faar to many cards to get rid of them in form of multiple pernicius. 4 bw into pyroclasm and sensei to find everything. So I made a g3 of juts nauseam him to dead and worked fine. Heplays multiple slaughter games so i sided in sometimes tendrills and grapshot if they jusy slaughter me something I still have a chance of wining.
that line was awesome. =D guess i'll try storming today. playing the 2/1 thoughtseize/duress split, and removing a chain of vapors for the IT sideboard.
o/
Went 1-3 yesterday. 2-2 the last two weeks. Got turn 1'd twice by dredge, beat burn, got counterspell-wrecked by BURG delver, then outplayed by reanimator. It just feels like I'm not fast enough (weird, right?) - my opening hands and mulls to 6/5 are weak, cantrip or discard heavy, and my empties are getting me only 10-12 goblins even in the later turns of the game. Maybe I'm just on an unlucky streak? Or (more likely) I'm just bad :)
Can someone explain proper cantrip usage? I know I'm screwing up brainstorm, but I don't know how.
Also, how do you beat delver? They've got daze/pierce/force/fluster to take care of discard with soft counters and business with hard counters. Wasteland deals with our limited number of lands. Delver posts a solid clock. Postboard it gets worse, with spell snare, etc.
I apologize if this information can be found somewhere else in this thread - I don't have time to read through all ~300 pages.
Just one for the fairness of discussion and because it came into my mind because of a recent issue in a german forum: if no list is posted, I asume the base we have for discussion isn't too far away from the list in the OP or from recent lists in discussion. ;)
If your hands are too discard-heavy, I have to ask how many discard-spells you maindecked? I run only 6 for exactly the problem of them bricking my hand if I need fas instead. As mentioned somewhere, I do this as I can wish for discard or double it with Infernal on demand if I have a grindy Game going. What do you mean by "weak"? Are they lacking initial mana, are full of cantrips which you can't convert into gas, or is it something different? Mulls to 5 should be rare anywise as you should learn to work with mediocre 7-6 cards instead of mulling because your previous grip(s) are sketchy.
Shorts on Cantrips: Ponder is used best to find a second land early and later to dig for a crucial key-spell or discard. Brainstorm is there to "shift gears". This means, being the last card cast (to adjusting your card selection aka protection/mana/business) before your combo-turn. The second use of Brainstorm, aside the usual desire to get Chrome Moxen out of your hand in slower Games, is to setup tricks with LED.
Softcounters and Wasteland got less of a Problem since we moved away from silence and increased the number of lands. I would think about using my Pyroblasts against their Delvers and delay their clock, forcing them to use their cantrips to find creatures, rather than to fill their hand with counters.
P.S. You should not try to go for goblins in the later turns. If life is low, you have to plan for the natural chain or PIF
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I played the stock list found on the primer page. "Weak" means that they are very slow e.g. last night I drew hands with 3 BW 2 Infernal 2 Land, hands with EtW and AdN both in opener, and many hands with all discard, cantrips and land - no fuel or business. You read about all the turn 1 and 2 Ad Nauseams and turn 2 EtW for 24s, but I rarely find hands with that much power.
Thank you for explaining brainstorm - your explanation actually really helps! Exactly what I was looking for. Should help me avoid brainstorm locks in the future.
Should I be playing pyroblast/REB in my 75? What would I cut?
I don't necessarily see a problem with those hands. You can still brainstorm one or more of the business spells away at at certain point or imprint them into a mox. Even the hand with 3 wishes and 2 infernals is not THAT unreasonable in grindy matchups if you run the SB Duress instead of the Thoughtseize like I do, as you can wish for Duress and double/triple it with infernal. Keep in mind what I said about brainstorm in the last post, as it also applies to unnecessary discard in your hand like it does for Moxen. Just food for thoughts.
The biggest mistake with Brainstorm you can make is using it actively to dig for a second land turn 1 or 2. Brainstorm-locks should be extremely rare in this deck as you have always a Fetchland, a Ponder or an Infernal at hand to shuffle.
The first card to cut should be the Xantids atm. My mention of Pyro for the purpose of slowing Delver down was more of an idea to hand you, if that is a more serious problem in your meta than Reanimator or S&T. Pyro can at least battle more cards than Xantid atm. Delver, Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, Clique or S&T just to name a few
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Played the 3C TES. but got +2 thoughtseize main, -1 duress, +1 infernal tutor (SB) , -1 chain of vapors (SB)
trying to fit the IT on SB, though it hit my reanimator match...
Guess I am not very experienced on how to use pyroblasts. Still got a top 4 on a 10-man.
mono black discard -> 2-1 (lost a game due to slow hand, and playing like he was a pox, which he was not... just had to empty my hand as fast as possible (cause of liliana caress), and all was good)
D&T -> 0-2
missed the possibility to burning wish for a massacre on T2 on game 1, and got trampled ... the second game was a canonist/thalia beatdown =/
reanimator -> 2-1 the games were pretty weird... got to beatdown w/ a swan song token, after being FOWed 3 times on game 3=/
miracles -> ("2-0") actually, my friend was 1-2, so he conceaded to me. he got a counterbalance ,that turned on a countertop on my combo turn.... twice =P I got to pithing needle, but i aimed at JTMS that was in his hand, and then he naturally draw the top =/
top 4
D&t (again) -> 0x2. i did play better, but after i went for 12 tokens, he naturally cast a batterskull, and on second game, he got to top deck a thalia on the following turn i massacred (cause of the beats)...
all in all, i really liked the configuration, but the miracles really was damaged =/
but i guess i am going to stick to this build. cause i did get to make a line against d&t that i fetched for a swamp, burning wish for a massacre, and pithing needle a rishadan port, which did save a lot of time (eventhough i got trampled anyway =/)
however, i am wondering which card should i take from the SB to fit the IT on the sideboard...
I spent yesterday goldfishing some hands with a third Duress main and Infernal in the side over the Massacre slot. I used Chain of Vapor a lot on Saturday and would recommend against cutting it. The slot for Massacre comes down to a preference between Grapeshot or Massacre. I prefer Grapeshot as it's more flexible, I also feel that Death and Taxes isn't a bad match-up and the dedicated slot isn't needed. I haven't sided in Needle against them either, as it's almost playing into their strengths (Living until turn two).
Grapeshot has a tough time dealing with Thalia and Canonist while eating up too many spells to clear a board. This weekend I had a good laugh at T1 Delver and T2 SFM (Batterskull) opener playing right into massacre. Batterskull never saw the light of day.
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Sure and Massacre can't kill opponents or deal with X/3s. Do all your blue opponents tap out after they've resolved a threat? I wish mine did...
I'm not interested in killing opponents with G.S. or killing creatures X/Y+2 with TES. That's simple. Even as a Card To Side In is worse than whatever options we have available for a specific purpose...
I've been very happy at dealing Gaddock Teeg with V.Snare, for the rest of HateBears, Massacre is the card. (I'm remembering that MasterCard TV Ad..., I'm not sure if you watched it!)
Even the other day I also was happy to kill Elves via Rite->Massacre, even when I didn't need to!.
Apart, what do you think about that New Card Bryant, if you like to answer...?
I agree with Lem on this.
let's get this clear:
- You need to play V.Snare AND (Massacre OR Grapehot), other configurations seem to me nonsense.
@Bryant and @Lem:
Apart, well I need to say that the All Fetches Configuration by Lem and Bryant Side really impressed me, I'm not going to disagree or not by the moment, the only thing I'd like to know is:
- Have you made enough testing to be 100% sure to remove full Gemstones? there are some maths involved behind this...
@Togores:
I'm really interested in the results vs those Miracles, I have no time, but I'll ellaborate my post better... My initial idea is 4 A.D 2 Nedle as I mentioned in my before posts, by here most of us agree. or at least Lem... In my Maths World the most beatufull thing is: thinking and reaching by separately the same conclusions as others (I could mention in here some Contemporary Great Minds but it's a secret I have to keep...!)! I think at least in here I got this with Bahamut, F.Fortune and Lem mainly! Sad to say not with Bryant..., maybe it's diff. meta. but you and me should reach the same conclusions my friend...
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Edit:
In all Fairness: i duressed a FoW during my T1, leaving him defenseless, so he had to get going before I can combo :)
Edit 2:
Flashback Treasure Cruise is rad
Last edited by Lemnear; 09-16-2014 at 03:56 AM.
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I'd like to add my opinion to the discussion around this. Shortly after the Infernal Tutor was moved to the sideboard, I wrote this:
I still think that is the case. In fact, as I've gotten more and more used to having that option, I find myself casting Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor quite frequently. Hell, even in match-ups were I board back in the Infernal Tutor to increase the density of tutors for Game 2/3, I often end up regretting it.
I'll be the first to admit, that when it was initially suggested, I claimed that generating the 9 mana required for Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam would be difficult. I was wrong. I estimate I complete this full sequence in around ~10% of the games I play due to the insane concentration of mana generation we are capable of. In at least another 15%, I end up Burning Wishing for it so I can do the traditional 7 mana Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam the following turn.
Honestly, for the sake of consistency, I would argue that the Infernal Tutor shouldn't ever leave the sideboard now. I have found having access to a virtual 7 Infernal Tutor extremely valuable.
What I think we need to remind ourselves, is that a large factor of cutting Diminishing Returns was because we would have the option of getting Infernal Tutor instead (I'm aware of its other flaws; I'm not suggesting we add it back in). I mention this because I have found that when Infernal Tutor is no longer there, Burning Wish is a lackluster tutor when Empty the Warrens won't get the job done. If we remove Infernal Tutor from the sideboard we will be left with only 1 'engine-esque' card to retrieve with Burning Wish (Past in Flames) and if that isn't viable due to the state of our graveyard, then Burning Wish becomes a very poor draw indeed.
I ended up switching back, I just haven't made it public yet.
List:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
I'm testing Massacre over Grapeshot. I'm not happy about it, but I'm all for the deck's best interest. If that's cutting Grapeshot, it'll hurt, but I need to find out.
I fear, i have to disagree with this post in it's entirety. Gaining access to a whooping 9 mana in a timeframe in which Ad Nauseam still matters due to dealt damage is a heavy burden in a metagame with Daze & Spell Pierce on one side of the spectrum and Thalia & Wasteland on the other. By wishing for Infernal and passing the turn, you give you opponent perfect information about what's up to come and where to point/when to fire his discard (Cabal Therapy!) while also grant him a free time walk by wasting 2 mana (which often equals a whole turn) just for switching the business-spell. I hope that there is no discussion of how this essentially wasted turn affects your Ad Nauseam if your opponent controls a Delver or can find a Hymn or hatebear.
The SB Infernal has nothing to do with the cut of Diminishing Returns. Returns fate was sealed by two facts: 1) without Silence it is a crappy engine against blue and 2) the whole except MUD, D&T and Dredge is basically blue atm. We looked at stuff like Doomsday and Infernal Contract to have a wishable engine once EtW is not a target of value and ended with moving Infernal into the SB under the aspect of having a stronger manaboost with Cabal Ritual. Now the circumstances changed once more and Cabal Ritual is out and we have less options to power our manapool.
This is exactly the moment Treasue Cruise comes into play as our new option for a wishable engine if our graveyard is not packed with Rituals for Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens in not an option. It's a slick way of converting additional Wishes into cardadvantage, drawing you into your 4 MB Infernals rather than just switching one business for the other with the downside of also nailing a neon sign to the wall reading "dood, I'm going to combo next turn!"
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I don't think cutting Abrupt Decay is an option in Europe. There's lots of Miracles and a fair amount of Chalice of the Void here. I haven't ruled it out yet as I can definitely see the appeal though. Depending on that, the changes to the mana-base suggested over the past 3 pages will be a tough and interesting decision to make.
@Bryant - Aside from my regional reservations above, I like your list at the end of the last page. How have the basic lands performed for you? Perhaps it's too early to say. Sadly I won't get a chance to test any of this until at least next week, so I'm eager to hear of anyone's experiences.
Regarding Grapeshot, it's a tough one for sure. I don't have anything to add that would help as I agree with everything you expressed here, but can also understand the desire to having an absolute blow-out to wish for against hatebears.
Last edited by vercadium; 09-16-2014 at 01:21 PM. Reason: Re-worded to reference other posts correctly.
After our FB chatter I'll take this list, switch out the 3rd Duress for the Infernal and stick Treasure Cruise into the SB and give it a spin against euro-Miracles
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