Miracle Control

[Adryan]

Your arguments have many flaws. Like jamming 15 cards in your SB against Storm will make the MU favorable and the assumption that 12 Post MUs against RUG/ BURG Delver is anywhere near positive. But since you're emotionally attached to the deck, and this is not the thread to discuss such things, i think we both can agree on disagreeing.

[twndomn]

I don't think RUG Delver or Burn are anything else besides favorable MU's. I don't want to sound like a dick, but maybe you're not skilled enough with this deck, if you have troubles beating Burn or Rug Delver. Even without SFM it's quite favorable.

Goblins on the other hand should be a bad MU on paper, but i disagree. First it's an inconsistent deck, that can have do nothing draws or draws that lose to Jace and his 0 ability every turn. Without SFM it's a slightly negative MU from my experience (had many testgames), but with SFM it's positive. Ofc there will respond players like Jonny Theorycrafter, who will say otherwise but to those i have to say. Be a good Miracle pilot, play the version of Miracles that is good against creature based decks and play a lot of games against Goblins. In addition to that Goblin is completely dead to hatecards like Humility, which does have a purpose in other MU's, unlike Moat.

If the worst deck in Legacy aka 12 Post (i mean a deck that is bad against Combo&Delver decks^^) ever becomes popular, i'd just jam 4-5 Moon effects in my 75 and be happy when playing against 12 Post.

I find this comment funny, not because the content, because you automatically attempt to shift the discussion from Magic to the person.

1. It's build dependent.
I assume you're on the Ponder build; in that case, RUG and Burn might make your MU easier. If you are willing to think outside of Ponder build, then you might realize some builds are more focused on the unfair MU.

2. Do you watch stream?
I have seen Lossett lost on stream against RUG Delver and Burn. Of course, he has beaten those 2 plenty of times as well. However, the MU is not as one-sided as you advertise. For you to automatically jump to conclusion, that says more about yourself than anything related to Magic.

[oarsman]

Also why is that deck not at least 2% of the meta, if it's as good as you are implying?

I don't know how to quote from more than one post at once, but I think sauce's argument has you crushed here.

"First of all, it's a deck that a lot of people (like yourself) do not respect. If you can't respect it, you won't play it."

That is an excellent point, and infect provides a recent example. Maybe last weekend it was 2%, but Tom Ross has demonstrated all year long that the deck is powerful. It took a long time for other players to move in.

[exallium]

At the same time... I'm not convinced that 12-post doesn't have a rough matchup vs any deck running a set of wastelands and some good artifact hate (for pithing needle). Throw life from the loam into the mix and it gets pretty brutal.

Again though, that's for a different thread. Miracles has, and always will have, a very hard time dealing with 12-post just due to the nature of the deck and it's desire to play into the late game (and 12post having a significantly better late game than us).

[sauce]

Your arguments have many flaws. Like jamming 15 cards in your SB against Storm will make the MU favorable and the assumption that 12 Post MUs against RUG/ BURG Delver is anywhere near positive. But since you're emotionally attached to the deck, and this is not the thread to discuss such things, i think we both can agree on disagreeing.

The entire 12 post sideboard IS dedicated to the bad matchups I just mentioned. Please review:

Sideboard
1 Relic of Progenitus (BUG Delver as well as Dredge/Loam decks)
1 Phyrexian Revoker (BUG Delver & Elves as well as storm naming LED)
3 Blue Elemental Blast (Burn/Sneak Attack/Blood moon decks)
4 Force of Will (Catch all for combo decks)
1 Moment's Peace (BUG Delver & Elves + other linear tribal aggro)
3 Swan Song (Catch all for combo decks)
1 Engineered Explosives (Combo, Elves, BUG Delver)

vs Storm, I bring in every single card because it has impact on the matchup much more than say Ulamog, Emrakul and other donothing cards depending on the variation of storm.

It is not an assumption that the matchup vs RUG and 4c Delver is favorable for 12 Post, it is based on my extensive testing and about a year's worth of tournament experience vs those decks at both SCG and my LGS.
You may chose to hold other beliefs but I cannot stop you from believing what you want.
I am not emotionally attached to the deck, nor are my arguments here based on anything except my own experiences with the deck.

I can agree on disagreeing but I won't allow you to make blanket attacking statements against this deck w/o any supporting proof.

P.S: Sorry for hijacking the miracles thread.

Edit. P.P.S: Thanks for the vote of confidence Joe, I was just thinking about how Infect is in a similar boat except much more visible and successful due to Tom Ross' winning the invitational with it. Perfect correlation there since it's also not respected and considered a gimmick deck.

[Einherjer]

Wait, there actually are viable decks outside of Miracles?

Joking aside, I think the topic has been settled in due manner. While it may be tempting to classify a deck as "no deck" it is wrong 10 out of 10 times. We've all lost to something that we didn't consider a (real) deck in our career of Legacy, havn't we? The world does not consist of Canadian, Miracles and Sneak only, that's the truth, believe it or not. Legacy is a rich and deep format, and not every deck can fulfil the standards of the best deck in the format, in fact, most decks don't even need to do that, see 12-Post as an example. But I guess it's time to move on now, isn't it?

As many have pointed out, the new cantrips are very hard to integrate into Miracles and I can hardly see more than one copy being played in any version. Admittedly though, it's more likely that these cards might pop up in a Legendary-list due to the total or partial absence of Snapcaster Mage. But I am still in big doubt if these cards should be integrated at all.

It's not that I wouldn't like to play an socery speed Ancestral Recall, but it is bound to too many requirements while also screwing up plans made in the past that stroke the Miracle mechanic or Counterbalance. Cards like this are better used in pro-active Control-strategies, which means that I am having a very hard time imagining a competitive UW brew that utilizes this very cards. And if this very thing should happen, it has nothing to do with Miracles.

Many people claim that Miracles has been dethroned by this very couple of cards, as it won't be integrateable to Miracles. While I agree on the assumption that these cards do not fit Miracles, I am a strong opponent of the thesis that sees Miracles fall. It might spawn new decks, it might force us to adapt but all theories preaching the doomsday of Legacy as know it are nothing but polemic and hillarious. Things will shake up, people might complain but I would be oustandingly surprised if these cards were consideres pillars of the format in the year(s) to come.

In the end it's just another card that draws more cards. Dealing with those drawn cards will stay the same. What will change is the amount of cards the opponent has. But this problem is well known from the Shardless MU. Even though this MU isn't good in the primary sense it's not that hard to structure a decent game plan, which consists of overpowering their threats. I might forsee Team America getting a little tougher, as it moves to BUG (Yes, I am not using this hillarious names) Midrange. It will weaken Miracles, but nothing else as their threat diversity cannot be increased adding Cantrips. It's actually more likely that the threat diversity we are going to face will be at an all-time low, which is great for tuning the deck.

So, I think that these cards will make the Esper and Team America- MUs a little tougher, but nowhere near the MU-percentages of 12 Post. Maybe it might be correct to up the REB count in the 75, depending on your very list. But before making changes, let's wait and see how it shapes up. I, for my part, am not too worried about the future of Miracles.

Greetings

*this wasn't necessarily an answer to any of you, but I've been asked countless times about the new cards, so I thought I'd write something down to link it to the people in question. And while doing this everybody can read my opinion, in case they cared. Thanks for reading and sorry that it isn't as comprehensive as me and maybe you would have liked it to be.

[dsck]

Maybe it might be correct to up the REB count in the 75, depending on your very list. But before making changes, let's wait and see how it shapes up

This is exactly how I feel. Maybe maindeck rebs will be the future

[KZhang]

I don't think RUG Delver or Burn are anything else besides favorable MU's. I don't want to sound like a dick, but maybe you're not skilled enough with this deck, if you have troubles beating Burn or Rug Delver. Even without SFM it's quite favorable.

Goblins on the other hand should be a bad MU on paper, but i disagree. First it's an inconsistent deck, that can have do nothing draws or draws that lose to Jace and his 0 ability every turn. Without SFM it's a slightly negative MU from my experience (had many testgames), but with SFM it's positive. Ofc there will respond players like Jonny Theorycrafter, who will say otherwise but to those i have to say. Be a good Miracle pilot, play the version of Miracles that is good against creature based decks and play a lot of games against Goblins. In addition to that Goblin is completely dead to hatecards like Humility, which does have a purpose in other MU's, unlike Moat.

If the worst deck in Legacy aka 12 Post (i mean a deck that is bad against Combo&Delver decks^^) ever becomes popular, i'd just jam 4-5 Moon effects in my 75 and be happy when playing against 12 Post.

I play primarily on mtgo, and have played burn many many times. It's nowhere near as favorable as a matchup you described. You will probably win 75% of the games you get the CB top lock, and you will lose easily 90% of the games you don't get the lock. (I don't run Stoneforge and batter skull)

[Dzra]

That is an excellent point, and infect provides a recent example. Maybe last weekend it was 2%, but Tom Ross has demonstrated all year long that the deck is powerful. It took a long time for other players to move in.

As I was reading through the last page, I was actually thinking the same thing. The Legacy metagame, and maybe the SCG circuit meta in particular, is very slow to change. It wasn't that long ago that Miracles was considered a fringe deck. What boosted Miracles into popularity was a string of consecutive good performances, the deck really hasn't had any drastic changes since the Miracle mechanic itself. There are a lot more really strong decks than people give credit to, but general opinion affects how many people play the deck which in turn affects how many people win with the deck which goes right back to how people think of the deck. There are a lot of "fringe" decks that are on the cusp of being tier 1 and simply waiting for a small meta shift or even just a noticeable tournament win.

I am not emotionally attached to the deck...

Objection! ;)

@ Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time

These certainly seem to have potential on the surface. I think Dig Through Time is probably the better suited for Miracles since we care far less about raw card advantage and much more about card quality. I could see testing it out as a one- or two-of, possibly in place of Snapcaster or something. The Delve mechanic can be swingy at times, although the ability to dig seven and draw two cards while dodging Counterbalance could be huge in the mirror. Dig Through Time seems to have fairly lousy synergy with Miracle cards at first look, but I'm sure that a mega-Preordain can't be too bad. Other than trying it out in actual games, I don't think there's a lot more to be said. If anything, I'd think combo is definitely going to have a field day with these.

[Adryan]

The entire 12 post sideboard IS dedicated to the bad matchups I just mentioned. Please review:

Sideboard
1 Relic of Progenitus (BUG Delver as well as Dredge/Loam decks)
1 Phyrexian Revoker (BUG Delver & Elves as well as storm naming LED)
3 Blue Elemental Blast (Burn/Sneak Attack/Blood moon decks)
4 Force of Will (Catch all for combo decks)
1 Moment's Peace (BUG Delver & Elves + other linear tribal aggro)
3 Swan Song (Catch all for combo decks)
1 Engineered Explosives (Combo, Elves, BUG Delver)

vs Storm, I bring in every single card because it has impact on the matchup much more than say Ulamog, Emrakul and other donothing cards depending on the variation of storm.

It is not an assumption that the matchup vs RUG and 4c Delver is favorable for 12 Post, it is based on my extensive testing and about a year's worth of tournament experience vs those decks at both SCG and my LGS.
You may chose to hold other beliefs but I cannot stop you from believing what you want.
I am not emotionally attached to the deck, nor are my arguments here based on anything except my own experiences with the deck.

And you fully believe that jamming these 15 cards in your Maindeck will make your MU against Storm favorable? Is Painter also a Matchup you consider favorable? I see... :)
____

@Burn Let's say you play Philipps Ponder list or something similar. If you are not favored against Burn, you're doing something wrong. I've played so many games on Modo against that deck to know that it's favorable.

[sauce]

And you fully believe that jamming these 15 cards in your Maindeck will make your MU against Storm favorable? Is Painter also a Matchup you consider favorable? I see... :)

You should watch some of my videos, Painter is nearly a bigger BYE than Miracles.
I am favorite against storm post board, I have played enough times to prove it to be the case. The only card the matters for them post board is Xantid swarm.

[Sedris]

R U actually all a Bit insane?

[rancOr_]

I kinda like the option of playing 2 DTT, while simultaneously having 2 8drops for CB to counter Treasure Cruise..
Maindecking 1-2 REB's might become more standard now ^^

[Zilla]

This isn't the Burn thread, it's the Miracles thread. Keep it on topic please. Thanks.

[exallium]

So the other day on the EternalCentral podcast (Everyday Eternal), the guys were talking about a 4 Entreat lists. Is this a simple troll, or does anyone think there's some sort of viability in this approach? I feel like you would draw a very large number of dead hands.

[Cipher]

It probably would work. A guy from Losset's store was talking about how he ran 4x Entreat a few months back. Joe even rand a daily with it once. I think people get melodramatic about drawing miracles when they can't cast them, but the deck has 8 Brainstorms in it (7 since most people run only 3x Jace for some reason). It's always "Grumble, grumble, grumble, stupid Entreat...oooh Brainstorm. So I just win here, right?"

I think you should evaluate these numbers based off the same criteria you use for copies of any expensive sorcery. I think 6 is my maximum for cards costing more than 3 mana. Be worth throwing 2 copies in the board to see how that plays out vs BUG and other midrange decks, though.

[exallium]

And now I need to find another Korean entreat =( and probably another Japanese JTMS at some point.

Edit: now just a 4th Jace ;) Thank you FacetoFace Games

[decan]

Hey guys,
I have a question concerning Blood moon. I know its a good card, but I'm not totally sold on it or better to say: Am I willing to commit one or 2 SB slots to it?
What MU do you use it against? i mean there are obvious choices like bug, rug and jund. What about storm or Death and Taxes? How many copies do you play? Do you try to jam it down as soon as possible? Generally any tipps on how to use it for best results?
Thanks in advance

[Adryan]

Hey guys,
I have a question concerning Blood moon. I know its a good card, but I'm not totally sold on it or better to say: Am I willing to commit one or 2 SB slots to it?
What MU do you use it against? i mean there are obvious choices like bug, rug and jund. What about storm or Death and Taxes? How many copies do you play? Do you try to jam it down as soon as possible? Generally any tipps on how to use it for best results?
Thanks in advance

I think 1 is the bare minimum one should play. Against Storm and Death and Taxes i wouldn't bring it. ANT runs 2 basics, has access to colored mana sources via Petals, and it's a very slow card that doesn't impact the game enough. Against TES, although they normaly play 0 basics it's also too slow.

Against Death and Taxes it's also not worth bringing in, because shutting off Wastelands and Ports is not worth the sacrifice of not being able to shuffle your library and having a card that has 0 board impact.

Tips how to use Blood Moon? Wait for the perfect moment. Against Decks with Abrupt Decays and/or Softcounters you're in no hurry to waste your wonderful game winning spell. Wait for them to tap out, play around softcounters, find protection and/or play a Vendilion Clique before to check for answers to Blood Moon.

[dunk]

@Burn Let's say you play Philipps Ponder list or something similar. If you are not favored against Burn, you're doing something wrong. I've played so many games on Modo against that deck to know that it's favorable.

Probably closer to 50/50. Of course the deck has the tools to lock out Burn of doing anything, but often you just draw the wrong combination of cards. Having a slow clock doesn't make things more favorable as well.