I feel only UR Delver can support the full playset of 4. BUG and Patriot are more mid rangy and cannot fill the yard as fast. When I have cruise in my opening hand I find that bug/uwr can cast it earliest around turn 4 while UR Delver can cast it turn 3 sometimes since they dump cards at amazing speed. Having 2 Cruises in opening hand means you have 2 cards doing nothing till turn 4. This is unacceptable in such a fast format.
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I know I mentioned this when we talked earlier today, but I'm going to restate it for more general consumption - I think that while Sultai Charm has a lot of utility, especially because of the loot mode, it's fighting for a board slot with Maelstrom Pulse and that Pulse's key difference here is that it can destroy Planeswalkers. BUG Charm can fight them on the stack, but once a non-Abrupt Decay-able Planeswalker (say, I dunno, Jace) has resolved, you're stuck wasting a combat or two killing it (unless you can just kill your opponent). I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but I think I'd rather have Pulse if it came down to Charm vs. Pulse.
Sultai Charm is blue and an instant and which are not irrelevant. I played it some today and it was ok. Not amazing, but not terrible. Might be better off as a 3rd Treasure Cruise though.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Don't forget that Sultai Charm competes with both Maelstrom Pulse and Putrefy. If anyone is running a miser's Putrefy, Charm is probably an upgrade. If anyone is running a Pulse in the maindeck, I could easily see testing Charm. On the other hand, at least in my deck, I run Pulse in the board as an answer to Jaces and Angel tokens in addition to a flexible removal spell for creatures and equipment. Charm doesn't fill the same roles, so it won't replace Pulse in my board.
Finally, with this third mode instead of it's current awful mode, Dimir Charm would have been awesome and I'd definitely play at least one.
InfoNinjas
I doubt it. I've been working some number of Treasure Cruise into lists and it's just a bear to play alongside Goyf and DRS. You have to play DRS to manage the opponent's GY. There's just no question there even if DRS wasn't one of the best pieces of acceleration in Legacy at this point alongside his other fine qualities.
I'm playing against Uwr Aggro last night and I have Treasure Cruise in the hand and I'm staring at a board with Goyf on my side and a flipped Delver on his and I really want to delve for TC but it's going to cost me a 4/5 Goyf going to 2/3 or worse. My DRS was hitting his GY from turn 2 on and then he delved for TC on turn 4 and I countered it so there is just a Sorcery in his GY at the moment. I have Ponder, Counterspell, Polluted Delta x2, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in my GY and 3 mana on the board. I have TC, Goyf, Repeal and an Island (just drew it) in hand. The catch is it's 11-6 in his favor and I have no idea if he has Force of Will at this point. We both hit each other once after his failed delve and I don't know if he sandbagged the Force of Will on his delve to protect his win-con.
So I'm staring at a 4/5 Goyf and delving for TC is going to make him smaller. I have another Goyf ready to replace him but the Delver on the other side is going to do me in two turns. I have several potential outs, including the Repeal in my hand, which is cheap to cast on the flipped Delver and will draw me a card, and of course I have TC which will draw me 3 whenever I can afford to shrink the Goyfs for a turn or 2. It's going to cost me a near tap out to do all of that and he's playing red with 1 bolt and 1 Price of Progress already played but no other damage spells seen yet.
I attack with the Goyf to get him down to 7 and then drop the Island, hold my breath and delve Ponder, Counterspell, Polluted Delta x2, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay and tap 2 to play Treasure Cruise. I delved the whole yard because I needed to keep 2 mana up for the Repeal to get it through a Daze if necessary. I also really wanted to bluff a Counterspell in case he bolted or PoP'd in response to my TC. My Goyf is now 1/2 with just a Sorcery in each GY. He does come over the top with a Force of Will and the Goyf goes to 2/3, which it would have been a second later anyway because I Repeal his Delver and draw a card, which is Treasure Cruise...
It turned into a loss in the end in which neither side successfully resolved TC and my Goyfs were little dudes in the end game. I'm ready to try Treasure Hunt instead of Treasure Cruise at this point. It'll get me by bad pockets of land in the mid-game and it will replace it self with another non-land card and it won't shrink my Goyfs.
BTW, I fully accept that there's been a change in the card advantage equation. You can't not react to the presence of Treasure Cruise in the meta. You'll die to worse lists that draw it against you at a bad time anyway. My reaction so far is 2 Counterspells main list, 2 Repeals (draws a card) main list as removal and the knowledge that I need even more card advantage to maintain parity. If I really want to keep playing Goyf it can't be Treasure Cruise though, hence the plan to look at Treasure Hunt.
....
I'd start by getting rid of those pretty weak cards first. They're more likely why you're losing than shrinking a Goyf.I'm ready to try Treasure Hunt instead of Treasure Cruise at this point. It'll get me by bad pockets of land in the mid-game and it will replace it self with another non-land card and it won't shrink my Goyfs.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
++, I nearly spit out my coffee when I saw Repeal.
Just as a note, I think for those who have not tried Cruise before, it's probably a good idea to start with the list wcm8 proposed and make changes from there after you've played a good number of games with it. For reference:
Lands (20)
9 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Liliana of the Veil
I have found this to be pretty rock solid.
Repeal is a cantrip that puts a permanent back in the opponent's hand. The difference between a flipped Delver or a Goblin Guide not hitting you on turn 2 after you've gotten a look at the top of your library is kind of real.
The big advantage though is that it effects the board without losing you a card in the process. One perfect example is when your opponent bolts, plows or Abrupt Decays a DRS or Delver. That's the card back in your hand plus a draw and the opponent having traded 1-for-1 on the cards that accomplished that. How come you guys think that delving your GY for +2 cards is great and blocking the opponent's attempt to remove for +2 cards is not? In a list with big permanents Repeal would kind of suck but in this list in this meta it's not a bad card at all. It also bounces tokens, even big ones like Marit Lage, for a profit.
I get that it's bounce, but look at what it actually does and for how much cost.
We have other answers to Marit Lage that are better than Repeal. If Stage/Depths is a concern in your meta, I'd be running some number of Needles in the board. If you want removal for it, Diabolic Edict is far less situational and usually cheaper despite not being able to answer noncreature permanents.
Blue and instant aren't irrelevant, but they aren't everything, either. I think that on balance I'd rather have Pulse first because it can destroy Planeswalkers, second because it's less color intensive, and third because it's a good out to Entreat.
Obviously I agree with you on Pulse, but I've gotten a ton of mileage out of Dimir Charm. It's a very flexible piece of removal (Goyf and flipped Delvers are the only commonly encountered creatures it doesn't kill) and an answer to lots of relevant spells like Show and Tell, Hymn, Terminus, Maelstrom Pulse, Ancestral Vision, Treasure Cruise, and Entreat.
Diabolic Edict is much more conditional than Repeal. You don't get to choose which creature the opponent sacs, so you really only tune it in when it's going to be a one creature proposition.
Repeal lets you put the thing you need to have off the board back in their hand before you Thoughtseize, Hymn, wait on it with a counter, etc. It supplies a draw that could even be the card you need to completely resolve the situation, assuming you don't already have the answer in hand, just no way for it to effect the board, since discard and counters don't effect the board at all.
There are so many early plays against BUG that are just highly destructive to our position since we tend to tap out early on. Having a way to deal with them after the fact aside from Abrupt Decay is a good thing.
I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight. Treasure Cruise is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of RUG that will force them to find adaptations to remain a tier list. It's just as bad against BUG despite DRS being one of the better solutions for it. We don't have the escape of access to red to adapt. No Nimble Mongoose for Young Pyromancer adaptations for us. No main list REB's if this truly turns into a TC meta. No REB's from the sideboard otherwise.
- Goyf is not the powerhouse he was if we're looking to delve.
- Our draws are not as consistent as they were if we're playing 3 or 4 TC.
- The opponent's ability to recover from a turn 2 Hymn has been amplified.
If we take TC out of their hand, well that was an unwieldy early turn asset anyway. If we miss it, well they're a bit closer to recovery by casting TC earlier to regain hand position.
- Two other Delver lists Uwr and UR have become much stronger with no adverse side effects. They actually get to shrink our Goyfs and deprive our DRS of what it most wants at the moment.
- Liliana, who was a good asset now becomes more unwieldy to use although likely still a good asset.
The adaptations that BUG is going to have to find revolve around lessening the dependency we have on the GY so that TC becomes just a huge plus card or downplaying TC and finding other methods of gaining card advantage to keep up with Uwr and UR.
Tarmogoyf and Treasure Cruise <> synergy. That has to be obvious to everybody at this point. Powerful cards that do not share synergy tend to be glittery junk.
Like Goyf and DRS together in the same deck?
And the answer to a changing meta is not to run bad cards like Repeall. It doesn't sound like I'm going to convince you that Repeal should not be played, and you're not going to convince me that it should be played.I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
If DRS took 5+ cards out of the GY when activated and could only take from our GY you would have a point. Of course if that were the case we probably wouldn't be playing one of DRS or Goyf.
TC takes GY's down to a collective 3 or 4 cards by turn 4 many games. Goyf just isn't going to be good enough in that environment. If we're delving alongside the opponent Goyf is probably going to have to go. I've got 6 matches since Friday that tell me pretty conclusively that Goyf is now a 2/3 or 3/4 in the mid game most of the time. This is because I've been delving alongside the opponent. Step 1 in trying to fix this is going to be finding ways to get CA without delving. Step 2 is going to have to be finding a better answer than Goyf and if that is not possible probably abandoning green to look at Grixis.
I get that you aren't going to change your mind at the moment. That's understandable. When I went looking for additional card advantage Sunday morning the idea of including bounce was far from my mind. Repeal went in as a 2-of experimentally to be Abrupt Decay 5-6 and an additional cantrip. I realized after I played a match that it wasn't as bad as it seemed, not by a longshot. It reactivates cards in our hand that have gone past their expiration date like Thoughtseize and Hymn. It doesn't cost us a card to do this.
It's an instant that can save our assets and go +2 vs the opponent in the process. They thought they were trading removal for our asset, and removal is a precious thing late game. Instead they traded their removal for Repeal and we got both an additional card and to replay the thing they were trying to remove. If they're trying to remove a blocker to kill us then we let them and put their attacker back in hand, gaining a turn and and additional card to potentially deal with it. Obviously if this was Repeal instead of Abrupt Decay that would be a horrible trade off for us but the Repeals are decays 5-6, they don't replace the first 4 they supplement them.
Play some in this meta and see if additional disruption + a card doesn't seem right to you. Maybe your experience will be different but it's not like Repeal is just a bounce spell.
I still don't get how a deck that used Tombstalker + Goyf is arguing at all about TC + Goyf; it's the same thing but easier to cast and significantly better (most of the time.)
You sound like someone who hasn't played with Cruise, or has played with it with too many awkward cards. It's fine with Goyf; I've never shrunk mine by (net) more than a single power precombat. You occasionally have to make a decision about whether to Delve now or Delve later, but that's a decision that will become routine soon enough.
I'm not scared of UWR Delver with Cruise at all. It was a favorable matchup already, and I see no reason to expect it to do anything but remain favorable. UR did get better, but I don't see UR as a major BUG predator, especially if the list that emerges doesn't run Price of Progress. We've still got plenty of tools for that matchup.
On Repeal - the number of permanents that can be profitably answered with Repeal is pretty small. It can answer tokens for U, but we have answers a plenty for tokens with Decay, and there are far better answers to Marit Lage. It's not an answer to opposing Goyfs except in corner cases where it lets you push through a lethal attack, and in that case I'll take my chances with more versatile answers. Unlike Diabolic Edict - a card I don't think needs a slot unless you've got tons of Reanimator, Stage/Depths, 12Post, and Sneak and Show in your meta - it can't answer TNN or Nimble Mongoose at all, and as a practical matter it can't answer Planeswalkers or any Artifact or Enchatment that isn't better handled by Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, or Maelstrom Pulse. It's a fine card in 12Post where making 5-6 mana is trivial and the whole point is to buy time. We need cards that are real answers or kill our opponent and Repeal helps neither plan.
EDIT:
This.
The opponent wasn't delving also. The Tombstalker on the board was better than the Goyf in the hand, since he had evasion. Didn't get hit by Abrupt Decay either.
It's not the same thing at all. The GY is now a major resource in the meta and not in the passive way that it used to be. Goyfs just aren't going to be as big as they used to be. BUG and RUG can still keep them big by not delving and controlling opposing DRS but that's kind of what you need to do.
I didn't have a 5/6 Goyf all weekend. Not a single time.
Seems like eveyrone and their mom is running more than 3 TC's
The graveyard will be one empty place now.
Goyf may not even be a good creature anymore.
5/6 goyf is not the easiest to achieve.
4/5 goyf is probably the most common.
Time to include some Envelops to board?
Permanents that Repeal manages well: Delver, DRS, Goyf, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant (+1 card, the one they'd have seen on their upkeep), Aether Vial, Mom, Elf dork on the play (anything to slow them down and draw into the sweeper after game 1 when I'm on the play about 75% of the time), basically any 1cc permanent, most 2cc permanents not in D&T, all tokens not hexproofed and the very occasional bigger permanent at a swingy point in the game (this always a card that Abrupt Decay is dead against.)
Then of course it manages ALL of your own permanents well except for Goyf under D&T or Liliana if she's in.
It does not manage Nimble Mongoose and Sensei's Divining Top. One of those cards is no longer playable in Legacy as we'll soon see.
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