you mean you didn't?Originally Posted by theBloody
5/6 Goyf has always been easy for me in lists with Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay. 4/5 is turn 3 maybe 4 at the outside. After that he beats big unless their list has no Planeswalkers, artifacts or enchantments, a rare situation these days.
If you're playing Goyf and delving the odds are pretty good that he's nowhere near as good as he used to be.
Synergy is one of the huge keys in constructed Magic. Goyf and TC have no synergy and TC actually works against Goyf because just when you want a big creature you also want extra cards to protect him and finish the opponent off with. The price of those extra cards is shrinking your Goyf. So you attack with him and then shrink him.
What are you trying to say? I thought you were a proponent of the TC.
I always said earlier before the card released that Goyf and DRS do not go with TC
Was always Spell Snare for me because it caught Hymn, PoP, Thalia, Goyf, Bob, Counterbalance, Eidolon (for a short glorious period), etc.
Now it will have to be Envelop, which catches only Hymn but also I guess Thoughtseize, Glimpse of Nature and Chain Lightning as a bonus. It's going to suck when PoP lands on me though. TC is making real changes across the meta.
If you are playing a burn deck game one, game 2, you need to adjust and watch for POP. They don't have wastelands, so you need to play it slow, like max at 2 lands, then a 3rd land, but it should be a wasteland.
Just slow down your play when you play against burn. You are not BUG shardless and need 4-5 lands in play.
No, I thought TC was going to be too hostile to a bunch of lists to see wide play. I tested with 3 and wound up with 1 or 2 experimentally. The problem is that it makes UR Delver, and maybe Uwr Delver the best aggro lists in the meta. Not the best Delver lists, the best aggro lists. It probably does absolutely disgusting things to Miracles as well although I avoided that trauma this weekend.
When I was testing it Goyf was impacted but not in a huge way. Then this weekend many games came down to the choice between keeping him big and keeping up with the Joneses in terms of card advantage. Everybody was playing blue this weekend. It was an all-blue meta.
The funny thing is that the game where the opponent tried to resolve two Treasure Cruises and I tried to resolve none was a big walkover win in my favor. Countered the first one and didn't care about the second because he tapped out for it and I still had a counter and removal in hand and the bigger board.
I actually agree with you. I don't believe TC belongs in every Delver deck as a 4 of...contrary to Akatsuki.
I stated earlier that TC will make UR, omnitell, miracles, UWR the top decks of the format.
If BUG Delver requires 4 TC then I'm going to go play 4 TC in UR or Grixis instead. There's walking uphill and then there's walking uphill dragging heavy baggage behind you and Goyf is going to be heavy baggage if we can't figure out other forms of CA that are cost effective.
What I meant was to include multiples. Not just one of.
I can't believe that 4 TC is going to be a requirement in BUG going forward. Some people are going to try 4 for a while, but I have to believe that it won't be a consensus for a while how many is correct to play.
Also, let's remember that this is week 1 of TC being Legacy legal. Week 1. It's waaaaaay too early to say TC is going to take BUG out of Tier 1 discussion. Miracles being dominant for a solid month or so didn't do it, and everything I heard said Miracles preyed heavily on us. Maybe TC will do it eventually, but 1 week at the top isn't gonna do it.
Back to reasonable discussion: I've been testing a bit with the list I posted on the last page, and I think 3 TC main feels right. I've currently got the 4th in the board, but I'm not sure I actually want it at all. Has anyone who's gotten more time with it than me gotten a clearer indication on 3 vs. 4? I kind of want to bring back the 4th Ponder to the deck (either main or board) over the 4th TC.
I tried 4 exclusively, for about 5 hours of testing and a 30$ -4 round side event at a modern tourney this weekend.
I didn't put out a lot of particular effort to make TC work other than using thoughtseize as my disruption (+daze/FoW) and 3 x Lilianas. 0 ponder/probe, and 20 lands.
I found I often sided one out post board (if it was too slow or I expected relic/rip). But in the absence of GY hates (for example mirrors all day), I would want 4. Between liliana/brainstorm and force, you minimize the cost of extras. But since the meta is a little more diverse I would probably play 3 for now and not bother with 4th in the board.
In about 30 games, I never once felt like it interacted negatively with my goyf and only a few times did it negatively impact my deathrights. I can't believe anyone who tested the card thinks there any anti synergy between Goyf and TC.
I did lose a game where I needed to find ADecay and cast 2 cruises for 4 mana total. If they had been ponders, I would of seen more cards and had more mana (though mostly just needed more looks).
If it really comes down to Goyf being awful due to the lack of graveyards, we can always just run True-Name Nemesis or something else in its place. In my testing though, Goyf generally maintains being a 3/4 at minimum regardless of both players Treasure Cruising. Outside of Rest in Peace or a Relic of Progenitus, there are going to be plenty of card types in the graveyard shortly after someone Cruises. Just play intelligently if you're against a Red opponent to avoid having your Goyfs die to Bolt state-baseed damage.
Another downside worth mentioning is that TC makes this deck even more vulnerable to yard hate. Hear me out.
This deck already has a problem with yard hate. RiP is the big one, but other hate does hurt as well. Deathrite, and Goyf are very yard dependent, and good opponents know that bringing in yard hate is good. Sure, we have the Countermagic and decays to gift back, but the problem remains... Yard hate does hurt us.
Drawing 3 is insane, but is it worth it at the cost of hurting our own guys AND increasing the effectiveness of opposing hate cards?
Its more like the bolt player needs to worry about bolt state-based damage.
Thats the biggest reason why I don't like it. A single RIP can destroy 11-12 of our cards
3/4 is about right based on my testing. When I don't delve he's a 4/5 unless I have Liliana in the GY. When I do delve he's usually a 2/3 right after the delve including the Treasure Cruise I put in the GY while delving. Then I put an instant in pretty quickly and he's a 3/4 again.
He's not a monster in the midgame when I also want to resolve TC. I hate the fact that the delve is a cost. It makes it such a risky play at times.
Previous guy is right, adding this to a standard bug delver list with drs AND goyf is just terrible. GY hate already is effective against bug delver and suddenly now it neuters nearly 25-30% of our deck. You can't play this AND tombstalker so our threats become even lighter than before with goyf being a weaker threat so going into the mid-late game is just completely bad.
In testing this card I took everything out making it BUG delver and it just became BUG control and played so much better...
Anyone who says delving 7 cards while also eating cards with DRS doesn't have an impact on their goyf is just lying to themselves out of pride on the price tag of their goyfs. It's strictly a terrible pairing. I benched my goyfs and delvers and added JTMS, TNNs, Strix, upped the liliana's and it's fantastic.
In Delver it fits 100x better in a Grixis or U/R build with Pyromancer and such. I especially liked testing it in the Grixis delver list with cabal therapies. You use the graveyard but not enough for them to side GY hate against you.
There is a fundamental misunderstanding about how GY hate interacts with BUG Delver here. Even if the nuclear option, Rest in Peace, resolves, it is not an insurmountable obstacle for BUG because we have 4 Decays and 2+ Golgari Charm and we are really good at playing the control for a while until our cantrips find them. I've won games versus Death and Taxes where I've been under RiP for 10 turns just by being patient and not trying to race under it. It's bad for our tempo to be sure, but it's not anything that we can't fight through. We are not all-in on the graveyard.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Almost everyone who has tested TC, including myself, disagrees with you, so I suppose there are a lot of liars around. Also, it makes no sense that TC would be better in a control shell because you don't have nearly as many cheap early spells to fill the graveyard with.Anyone who says delving 7 cards while also eating cards with DRS doesn't have an impact on their goyf is just lying to themselves out of pride on the price tag of their goyfs. It's strictly a terrible pairing. I benched my goyfs and delvers and added JTMS, TNNs, Strix, upped the liliana's and it's fantastic.
It's true that no one is going to side in RiP versus U/R or Grixis. But those decks are notoriously soft to Punishing Fire, Umezawa's Jitte, and Pyroclasm effects, maybe even softer than BUG+Cruise is to RiP. The lesson is that there are good sideboard cards versus everything. If someone really wants to beat you, they will.In Delver it fits 100x better in a Grixis or U/R build with Pyromancer and such. I especially liked testing it in the Grixis delver list with cabal therapies. You use the graveyard but not enough for them to side GY hate against you.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't play it because it can be boarded against. I'm saying playing it alongside options in our decks that share the same weakness just makes our deck even more susceptible to their post board hate, namely RiP. The intention of running this card would be to dig for answers correct? Well we can't do that efficiently against a RiP USING TC so is that really the card you want to run in games 2 or 3?
I keep seeing the argument in this thread with people who are saying it's okay to run this along with tarmogoyf feed out like this:
"It's okay that I delve 7 and turn my 5/6 goyf into a 2/3, because I draw 3 cards for one and then I use mana I still have open to cast 2 or three of those spells to make him a 5/6 again."
My question is if that is the argument then what is the entire point of drawing those cards. It's complete poop for your tempo and while it's true BUG can hit the mid game a little better than the rest of the delver decks, it's mid game becomes decreasingly potent when it's primary mid game beater is being neutered by your own deck's tactics.
I'm just trying to see the logic in playing this card in BUG Delver, I know it has amazing applications in about a handful of other legacy decks but I don't see it here to be honest without making changes to the deck. Most notably I'd at the very least switch out the goyfs for TNNs, MINIMUM. If you're gonna go into the mid-game more and you want the gas to do it, what's 1 more turn for a beater who isn't affected by the graveyard and who is more difficult to remove? I'd also increase to 1-2 tar pits.
Also comparing the sideboard hate against the 2 decks doesn't make sense, since Pyroclasm doesn't affect how Treasure Cruise interacts with their sideboard plan at all, that's the entire point I was making.
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