[Primer] Elves!

[Duker99]

Dredge/Reanimator decks seem to be making a little comeback and I am having trouble getting around them with just discard. Right now I have a trop in my main for 2 swan songs in the sideboard. I was thinking about switching it to a savanna and replacing the Swan songs with rest in peace.

Just wanted to get some thoughts on it

[theross]

Ross: any chance you will do an elves primer on SCG before the GP in NJ?

Actually just talked with my editor about this. I've started working on it and it will definitely go up before the GP so watch out for it.

As for Swan Song, I've never liked the card. Against most combo decks, the plan is to trade a lot of resources with your disruption and win due to the fact that your combo pieces still attack when you don't have enough to go off properly. Giving your opponent a 2/2 is a huge roadblock for this plan. If you really want more graveyard hate I think Tormod's Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb is the best option since they don't affect your Deathrites too much and you really just need a card that bridges you to Ooze or Natural Order so the powerful immediate effect of the artifacts is effective.

[starfox444]

Actually just talked with my editor about this. I've started working on it and it will definitely go up before the GP so watch out for it.

As for Swan Song, I've never liked the card. Against most combo decks, the plan is to trade a lot of resources with your disruption and win due to the fact that your combo pieces still attack when you don't have enough to go off properly. Giving your opponent a 2/2 is a huge roadblock for this plan. If you really want more graveyard hate I think Tormod's Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb is the best option since they don't affect your Deathrites too much and you really just need a card that bridges you to Ooze or Natural Order so the powerful immediate effect of the artifacts is effective.

I think the case for Crypt over Spellbomb is quite compelling. Being 0 mana still lets you develop your board early for a smooth transition into the midgame. I think that is worth eschewing the capacity to cycle spellbomb. I also like both options more than surgical extraction since they get around a street wraith. Don't think there's any other potent graveyard hate we can play out there, since we already play DRS and ooze.

[Zombie]

I think the case for Crypt over Spellbomb is quite compelling. Being 0 mana still lets you develop your board early for a smooth transition into the midgame. I think that is worth eschewing the capacity to cycle spellbomb. I also like both options more than surgical extraction since they get around a street wraith. Don't think there's any other potent graveyard hate we can play out there, since we already play DRS and ooze.

From when I tried Militant: You absolutely want your grave hate to be Surgical, Crypt or Faerie Macabre. This deck can do all manner of broken things, but it needs at least one turn of setup. A grave hate card that requires mana interferes with that setup time. That's ok against Manaless, slower Reanimator draws and bad draws from LED Dredge, but if Reanimator drew a fast hand or LED didn't brick completely, you're probably just dead with hate that costs mana.

@Ross
How do you sideboard usually? It's interesting to see you're still on the 4NO plan while Julian is moving away from NO. I still play a 4 NO build so your findings would probably be more applicable to whatever I want to be doing.

@MD.Ghost
How has Ruric served you vs. non-combo decks? Find yourself GSZing for him or do you just go for the Packmaster in those MUs?

[Lemnear]

@Ross
How do you sideboard usually? It's interesting to see you're still on the 4NO plan while Julian is moving away from NO. I still play a 4 NO build so your findings would probably be more applicable to whatever I want to be doing.

I know I was not asked, but I love theory-crafting :)

The question that stands in the room is "against which decks Natural Order is king?". If combo is aware of NO & Glimpse as your most dangerous cards and either runs Discard or Counterspells for your Sorceries, while you are most likely the slower combo-deck anyways, the plan to "race" combo decks with the "green Tinker" alone is flawed. Against Aggro-control or pure Control, Natural Order is a critical play considering all the non-creature counters in the format, the possible 2-for-1 and the constant pressure of board-sweepers & creature removal seriously harming your mana-development on two levels (Cradle + manadorks). At the moment, I feel the last remaining matchups which NO really shines are the very few matches against aggro such as Burn, Jund, Goblins, D&T, etc. which we already dominate due to superior mana, consistency via GSZ + BFF-Team, perma-fog via Wirewood Symbiote or Quirion + Arbor and last but not least, Packmaster.

I guess the situations/decks/creatures you want NO against/for is on a current, remarkable low and you have to evaluate NO also on the ability to grab silver bullets like Ooze, WRP or Sage or the possibility to sidestep the tutor aspect by running more Sages, WRP, etc. mainboard.

[MD.Ghost]

From when I tried Militant: You absolutely want your grave hate to be Surgical, Crypt or Faerie Macabre. This deck can do all manner of broken things, but it needs at least one turn of setup. A grave hate card that requires mana interferes with that setup time. That's ok against Manaless, slower Reanimator draws and bad draws from LED Dredge, but if Reanimator drew a fast hand or LED didn't brick completely, you're probably just dead with hate that costs mana.

@MD.Ghost
How has Ruric served you vs. non-combo decks? Find yourself GSZing for him or do you just go for the Packmaster in those MUs?

@Graveyard-Hate: Agree with Zombie, if Deathrite and Ooze aren't fast enough, than use the named Mana-Stuff. I personally hope, that elves didn't face a meta with too much GY-strategies (the real one, not the delve-stuff), because if you wan't to hate fast combos without a blue deck, you will need more than enough slots...

@Zombie/Ruric: As far as i remember i didn't Zenith for Ruric. Against D&T i used a NO (because Hoof wasn't deadly enough and he has flyers and also a jitte in his hand), i searched for Ruric and he won me the game in an uncommon style against D&T (luck was on my side, because he didn't drew a karakas).

Against Miracle i hardcasted a Ruric, which was good, because normally you can't use the full mana power of elves against Miracles thanks to Terminus etc. As i wrote the last year, we grind against miracle, but if we are too slow we will face entreat (or a cb-lock, with jace etc.) and it is gg. So each little point of damage counts. If they hide a terminus (and you knew it) you can also use Ruric as a bait for six damage instead of one.

Otherwise i "Hoofed" or used Packmaster if i could. It's basically a question of: can we combo it out with Glimpse/NO etc. or is the Combo-Plan under heavy disruption (Removal, Discard etc.) - Plan A is always the Combo, but against some decks or situations we gladly use a backup: Packmaster

As i mentioned, a lot of good european players can bring Grafdigger's Cage and basically knew how to play against Elves (it's DtB so no more understatement like the last years). It's interesting that the good old 4th NO + Progenitus (and Worldspine Worm) tech works again and again at SCG.

Personally i feel that i only swap to Worldspine Worm if BUG will stay on the top and Sneak & Show also rises to an more than annoying factor. With Council's Judgment and Miracle as enemy Number one, Progenitus isn't attractive enough for me. Sure the Hydra can win against D&T, but this is already a very good matchup. Against other fair decks, a grindy Maindeck (see Julian's/Lantto's list) should be good enough.

EDIT: Lemnear was faster

[AznSeal]

I really like packmaster but i've considered running the 4th NO MD so I can have a SB slot for Worldspine Wurm. Opinions? Here is my current 75 which i've been having a lot of success with. I just like the 4th NO maybe because I never feel bad if I draw a NO.

Creature: 29
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

Other: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Land: 20
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

[theross]

@Ross
How do you sideboard usually? It's interesting to see you're still on the 4NO plan while Julian is moving away from NO. I still play a 4 NO build so your findings would probably be more applicable to whatever I want to be doing.

I think Natural Order is the 2nd best card in the deck (After Gaea's Cradle) and after spending so many games hoping to draw it decided to MD the 4th copy and haven't looked back. I have had a few games where I overload on kill spells but if I were to trim either of them at this point it would be Glimpse.

My SBing philosophy is minimalist relative to most Elves players. I try to only board out a few Elves, rarely more than 4, and never more than 6. I trim Glimpse pretty regularly, but always leave at least 6 kill spells. The only matchup where I shave Natural Orders is against Delver decks, because their cheap counters and mana disruption make a 4 mana sorcery a liability and being able to cut a NO target is helpful.

[MadRhetoric17]

I think Natural Order is the 2nd best card in the deck (After Gaea's Cradle) and after spending so many games hoping to draw it decided to MD the 4th copy and haven't looked back. I have had a few games where I overload on kill spells but if I were to trim either of them at this point it would be Glimpse.

My SBing philosophy is minimalist relative to most Elves players. I try to only board out a few Elves, rarely more than 4, and never more than 6. I trim Glimpse pretty regularly, but always leave at least 6 kill spells. The only matchup where I shave Natural Orders is against Delver decks, because their cheap counters and mana disruption make a 4 mana sorcery a liability and being able to cut a NO target is helpful.

Are you keeping the 4th in against Miracles and bringing in a Progenitus as well? And when you shave a NO and a NO target in the Delver matchups, are you bringing in any SB targets there or basically leaving yourself with the 1 CH as a potential instant kill if the opportunity arises? Thanks for your input.

[dte]

Do you have the same SB strategy against BUG and RUG delver?

I used to keep only 1 craterhoof and 2 NO vs RUG, to side in only decays (and meekstone when I was playing it, and ooze if not MD)

vs BUG, I used to have the 4 NO + behemoth + proge post side, and shave some heritage/sage/nettle.

I always wondered if it was wise to keeep the same strategy OTP and OTD (like NO should be better OTP). I never wanted discard to not loose to waste if I want to T1 seize. Who is playing discard in delver MUs and do you like it? OTP and OTD?

[AznSeal]

Wait, people SB out NO against Delver? I usually side out the glimpse package because all their removal makes it hard to have a respectable board presence for a lethal hoof so I just use NO+Progenitus. What's your plan if you SB out NO?

[Alexeezay]

I don't think I would board Discard vs RUG/UWR Delver, the lifeloss by Thoughtseize is relevant and they have tons of cantrips and Brainstorm (-> resiliency). Never liked Cabal Therapy vs Canadian for example (had the same experience in Nic Fit kind of)

Vs BUG Delver you could board in 2-3 Thoughtseize since they don't run Burn and then take away crushing cards a la Toxic Deluge (same as Shardless). I also think Ruric Thar is quite strong against BUG in general. Decays are really important vs BUG these days because almost every bug Sideboard plays Grafdigger's Cage.

I agree and would keep Glimpse vs Delver strategies and rather cut NO if necessary, it's always fine to play with 3/2 NO vs blue decks. My general understanding is: cut some Glimpses vs White decks (Canonist), keep it in most of the time vs non-white.

I wonder why people are beginning to cut Nettle Sentinel down as well. In my experience he's an important aggro/racing card as a 2/2 and survives some stuff. I won several games with Nettle beatdowns, he's so good :)

[haganbmj]

I agree and would keep Glimpse vs Delver strategies and rather cut NO if necessary, it's always fine to play with 3/2 NO vs blue decks. My general understanding is: cut some Glimpses vs White decks (Canonist), keep it in most of the time vs non-white.

I agree with this. Glimpse plays a number of roles; one of which is digging into answers or more gas. It's also a small investment if it does eat a Counterspell.

[AznSeal]

I know there's a pimp decks thread but I wanted to post this here as well because I've been playing Elves for 6+ years and it's easily my favorite deck so....here is my elf deck!

I have 2 more Chinese foil Deathrite Shamans coming in the mail so i just put in a foil llanowar and a 4th Heritage Druid instead. I choose the make the 4th one (signed one) English because it was given to me by someone I'm really close with. I still need to finish S-Chinese foiling out the lands (it's hard finding S-chinese foil Dryad Arbors....)

Oh and sideboard, the Duresses are supposed to be Thoughtseize but i've been too lazy to find and I have a deal coming in for a playset of S-chinese foil Cabal therapy.

So much work to do but school is being dumb and expensive...

[Zombie]

Portal NO is unacceptable, no matter how pimp. Visions looks so much better it's not funny.

[Kayradis]

Portal NO is unacceptable, no matter how pimp. Visions looks so much better it's not funny.

I +1 that.

On the other hand, good job. I've put the foiling of Elves on hold since I need more money to afford my trip to UMF in march :(

[Kamiken]

Nice foils. I am only halfway through my main deck being foiled. Dreading the cradles, but fetches are easier with khans now. Rocking the Japanese foils because that is the most common here.

[AznSeal]

Portal NO is unacceptable, no matter how pimp. Visions looks so much better it's not funny.

But visions can only be found in T-chinese. I can only read S-chinese.

[Julian23]

Back from Ovino. Missed Top8 in the Big Legacy Trial in 10th place, then 7-2'ed the Legacy main event the next day.

Trying to finish a much bigger report in time but I guess you guys are most interested in my list right now:


4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windwept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

SB:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte (will be Null Rod from now on)
1 Sylvan Library

Matchups during the main event:

R1: Elves, 1-2 L
R2: Miracles, 2-1 W
R3: Deathblade, 1-2 L
R4: Opp didn't show up because there was a 2h delay
R5: Jund, 2-1 W
R6: Junk, 2-0 W
R7: RUG Delver, 2-0 W
R8: Burn, 2-0 W
R9: Burn, 2-0 W

7-2 in the end. Because they shortene'd the tournament due to reasons I'd explain sometime else, the 10th round was not being played so I finished outside the prices by tie-breakers.

[ESG]

Back from Ovino.
...
R4: Opp didn't show up because there was a 2h delay
...
Because they shortene'd the tournament due to reasons I'd explain sometime else, the 10th round was not being played so I finished outside the prices by tie-breakers.

What a gross event. That's so unfortunate for everybody. You have my condolences.