[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[nevilshute]

Hi all,
I would like to have your opinion on Rain of Filth since nobody seems to play this card at the moment.
I play a stock list and I have found it really good.
Sure, we want to be a T2/T3 deck, but even on your second turn it proved valuable for reaching threeshold, or even playing for taxing effects. It is not good after PiF: but it allows for quicker threesholded rituals, and it is so sweet if revealed after ad nauseam since it is basically the fifth dark ritual enabling starts from only B available.
On MTGO it has the added bonus it is the nuts against the so commonburn player in response to POP.
So, to everybody that is not playing it: don't you play it because it proved bad or because you never tried? Curious to know. Thanks!

Hey there. I've found it to be a tricky one. I've tried it a bit (although not a lot). The problem is that it is either there as a 9th ritual or it's there in place of one of our existing 8 rituals. I don't feel like the deck needs a 9th ritual but I'm not really basing that on anything other than my gut.

If you concede that we only want 8 then it becomes a question of which of our main rituals do we want to axe. Certainly not a Dark Ritual as it's power level is so high and always the same. So we're left, looking at replacing 1 Cabal Ritual. It's not an impossible notion, but what I found when splashing the 1-of RoF is that it is frustrating to have a ritual that isn't turned on during turn 1 (it can be cast for free off your land drop for a 'free' storm, but won't generate mana). Ideally I want all of my rituals to be live on turn 1.

I've played it in Doomsday where you often get to later turns and where it then becomes almost a guarenteed 5th Dark Ritual. It's way more valuable there. If the format slows down and we start planning for longer games (although I don't know if the latter is a natural consequence of the former) then it might behoove us to reconsider RoF.

[Lemnear]

so I believe best way is to attack SDT hard while preserving Storm deck structure the best... which is not easy, I think there is no easy recipe, but XS is definitely not in it at the moment, like everyone kept swords in, while Needle is still under the radar I believe it's currently the best way.. I was also impressed how is Krosan superior to AD in Sawatarix/russian top 16 guy hands so I have to test it

Obviously I'm with you on the needle sentiment. I'm however unsure about Krosan Grip looking at Ad Nauseam. I'm not convinced that we need Decay #5-6 if we can disrupt SDT for a single colorless mana instead, while rendering additional SDT useless, not to talk about the Needles application against DRS, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Wasteland, Vial, Jace, etc. which was the reason I added it to the TES sideboard quite a while ago.

I now read the report :)

[Ghiwo]

Hi everyone! I'm here with my in-game notes to write my report of the two days in Milan at Ovino9. First of all I will start from Friday, I was playing in the modern event, when, after reading pairings, I was going to sit at my table and saw a German guy next to me playing Show and Tell. So I introduced myself, and that's how I met Kai. I promised that I would come and watch him at the Legacy side event at the end of each modern round Unfortunately he was winning faster than me each round (after modern pairings were made legacy pairings) and I could see him playing in just a match. But he was very very kind, he gave me loads of tips and opinions, showed me his sideboard, and so on. It's been a real pleasure to meet you, and I hope to see you again in other tournaments!

Friday evening, or better, Saturday morning, I was still thinking about my sideboard for the event. I was not sure about Pyromancers, and I also wanted to follow Garritano's tip of having higher hate for white hatebears. So, after talking with Kai, and seeing a lot of Izzet Staticasters in the side event I decided to drop the Pyromancers and the additional Tendrils from my board. After some time spent thinking I finally came at this sideboard:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dread of Night
2 Flusterstorm

I am happy as my sideboard went, even if I didn't hit all the match-ups. So let's start, but first I'll say that I knew that probably I couldn't have the possibility to play all the 10 rounds, because I had to catch the last train to return home (I had an appointment I could not miss on Sunday morning) at 9:30 p.m. so I knew I had the possibility to play until 8 p.m. Onestely, as long as the tournament was supposed to start at 11 a.m. I thought I was playing for more rounds, instead at 7:50 p.m. I brought the fifth (FIFTH) round slip and asked to drop. That's crazy, at 6 p.m. we were still waiting for round 4 pairings!! I agree with international players who wanted to ask their money back! So, let's start with my report. Unfortunately is just 5 rounds but I'll try to be accurate instead.


ROUND 1 - Andrea Boccia, a very good Italian player, with a UWR control deck(It wasn't Miracles ;) ).
I'm a bit nervy as I reach my table, because my opponent is quite known here in Italy, he's a good player, and I hoped to start easier. He's a very nice guy and that helps me relax a bit. We start and I open a good hand with some cantrip, a duress, ad nauseam, a probe and 2 fetches. He starts and plays a fetch. I draw a gitaxian probe and fire it off. I see Plains, Jace TMS, Spell Pierce, Dig Through Time and Swords to Plowshares. I immediately put him on Miracles, so I think that I should hurry up before Counterbalance/Top comes online. Probe draws me a Lotus Petal I play a Ponder, I don't remember what I draw but I guess a Cabal Ritual. He draws, plays land and passes. I draw the card I set on top with ponder, which was a LED, I play my duress taking Spell Pierce, play Cabal Ritual for 5 mana and Ad Nauseam not revealing my LED nor Petal. I draw the cards I needed and when he sees the LED in my hand he scoops. I sideboard for Miracles, so:
-4 Lotus Petal, -1 Swamp, -1 Cabal Ritual, -2 Preordain +2 Senesi's Divining Top, +3 Abrupt Decay +3 Xantid Swarm.
I don't remember properly my hand, but I had 2 Decays, Xantid Swarm, a Thoughtseize (I split 2 Duress and 1 Seize). I play the Swarm first, maybe that was wrong, because it got Electrickery-ed. I don't remeber his turn, I think just land go. I draw and fire off my Seize. As soon as I see his hand i realize that my boarding was wrong because I see: True-Name Nemesis, Fow, Fow, Engineered Explosives, Counterspell. I take a Fow and play a cantrip taht draws me a discard spell and sets a Top on.. top . In his turn he plays explosives for 0 and passes. I draw my discard and Duress him. I see a Jace and a Spell Pierce plus the cards before. I take the second Fow and pass. He goes and plays land (which he did draw) and plays Nemesis. I play my Top safe from spell pierce and pass. After some turns of cantrip, I go down in life, I play a second Xantid I drew hoping it gets Counterspell-ed, but it resolves. He plays a second Explosives for 1 in his turn, and when I Brainstorm away my 2 useless Decays he cracks Explosives to destroy my Xantid and Top. I let Top die, because I don't want to draw a Decay. Maybe that was a misplay, to let him destroy my Top so easily, but I had my kill in hand and I was ready to combo off. After checking his hand with Probe I manage to go off through his Spell Pierce with double Dark Ritual plus double Cabal Ritual with a Bloodstained Mire ready to fetch Volcanic Island for the PIF loop. Nice win 2-0 against a very good player, that makes me proud. He is very nice after the match, gives me some tips about cantrips and wishes me good luck.
2-0 and 1-0.


ROUND 2 - A nice and very skillful German guy with a strange Ur deck.
We start and I start sculpting my hand, and when, after a couple of turns I'm ready, I check his hand with a Probe and see: Spell Snare, Vendilion Clique, Force of Will, double Snapcaster Mage, Lightning Bolt, Cryptic Command. My face was like . I did not have any discard, and did hit just a duress, that's not enough to beat the 2 Snapcaster Mages. I drew PIF and think if I can escape his counters with it, but it gets Vendilion Cliqued on the bottom of my deck. So, I die under his race. Sideboarding:
-1 Cabal Ritual -1 Preordain +2 Chain of Vapor. I don't know why I boarded like that, I felt like he had some permanent hate, like Cage or Null Rod, after the match I think I would have boarded 2 Decays for a rematch. I didn't put in Swarms because I saw Bolts
In the second game,I start with a Top, which gets FoWed, and he plays his own Top turn 1. I again sculpt my hand, I even had a Chain in my opening hand. He still has his wall of counters, and starts beating me with Snapcasters and Bolts. When I was ready I guessed he had a counter or something floating on top, I try to Chain his Top EOT, because I had a Duress in my hand. Unfortunately my Chain gets Counterspelled. I untap and draw, knowing that it was my last turn alive. I combo off, and when I had to chose a card with tutor I think. I look at my grave and see no responses to a Flusterstorm, so I hope he's on Surgical Extraction and I go for Tutor chain. He flips the top and shows me Flusterstorm :( That was a big mistake of me, thinking about it later, because I had the mana to let PIF get countered by Flusterstorm and then flash it back and pay for the flusterstorm if he kept it for the final Tendrils. I'll learn from that mistake, that's the most important thing when you play badly. Learn from it. Anyway,
0-2 and 1-1.
ROUND 3 - A nice Italian guy with Elves.
First game I keep a slow but solid hand, that was good against pretty much all decks but combo. When he starts Windswept Heath for Forest into Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor, I immediately think he's on Maverick. In my turn I start letting him think, I'm on Miracles. Volcanic Island for Top, go. I scream the rudest words in my head when he plays Deathrite Shaman and Quirion Ranger in his turn. In my turn I try to slow him down with a Duress: he shows me Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionary, Heritage Druid, Natural Order. I took the Order in fear of Ruric-Thar, and after the game he said that I made the right choice. But I don't know, I never played Elves, I don't know properly all the tricks it can do. With the Glimpse he wins turn 3. Sideboard:
-1 Senesi's Divining Top -1 Swamp +2 Chain of Vapor.
In g2 he keeps a slow hand, I didn't take note on my lifepad because it was really irrelevant, I remember 3 Zeniths and some Elves, but don't know which of them. Anyway I win turn 3 on the play.
In game 3 I open a cantrip heavy hand, and immediately send it back. My 6 cards new hand was: Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, Chain of Vapor, Preordain, Brainstorm. Not so good, but at least I have the chain, and I don't want to go to 5. I keep it and hope to get lucky. He starts DRS, go. I draw from turn and from Probe, I don't remember in which order, but it was a Dark Ritual and an Infernal Tutor. With Probe I see: Windswept Heath, Verdant Catacombs, Thorn of Amethist, Wirewood Symbiote, Heritage Druid. I play petal and Preordain, and find a Delta! :D I play it and pass. He plays the Thorn, I Brainstorm in response, finding the second land. I draw, play land and pass. He plays some elves and passes, EOT I chain the Thron. Untap and go off with Ad Nauseam stopping at 3 life, enough to stay alive after a DRS activation.
2-1 and 2-1.


ROUND 4: a Spanish man with a strange RUG Delver, with Young Pyromancers and Treasure Cruise but no Nimble Mongoose.
I don't remember properly game 1, I won with a PIF loop after discarding a Fow and winning through a Spell Pierce. Sideboarding:
- 2 Preordain +2 Flusterstorm
I lose game 2 after sculpting a combo-off hand and also beating a Vendilion Clique I saw before, by setting a second Tutor on top. Unfortunately he cantrips a lot and during my last turn before death I had to try not having a discard spell ready. Again, I hope he's on surgical (I saw it this time, he used one to extract my Gitaxian Probes), even because I don't have any discard in my graveyard ( I didn't hit a discard for the whole game 2!) to get rid of a possible Stifle. I tutor chain and what does he show me? Yes, Stifle...
Game 3 is really crazy! I open with Thoughtseize and he shows me Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf, Pyroblast, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Stifle, Stifle. I look at my hand and see a grinding slow hand, with Cabal Therapy and Sensei's Divining Top. So I choose to discard Tarmogoyf, to keep me free from pressure. He doesn't hit creatures, and continues to cantrip for more contrast (I don't know why!), I Cabal Therapy his Stifles, and some turn after I Duress a Force of Will I think. This while sculpting a perfect hand with Top. He had 2 Daze, but they were irrelevant, since i reached 4 lands in play and loads of rituals in my hand. At some point he decides to Surgical Extract my Duress, leaving me with just 3 Cabal Therapy in the deck. When I finally found a Tutor and was ready to go-off a Probe revealed me a Flusterstorm in his hand. I started cantripping as hell with my Top and Ponders to find a discard. While time was going by so fast! I fetched some times to shuffle, looked my top infinite times but didn't hit a ******* Cabal Therapy to get rid of the Flusterstorm. I even drew my Flusterstorm, but was useless since he wasn't playing anything. They call the turns, and still no discard. He plays a Young Pyromancer, but I'm safe at 12 life. The additional turns go by, and we draw the match. I was so angry with my luck, just a Cabal Therapy and this game could have been a victory!
1-1 and 2-1-1.


ROUND 5: an Italian man with Jund.
I don't remember properly what happened, I think I Duress a Hymn to Tourach and go off before a Liliana hits play (not a great threat anyway). Sideboard:
-2 Preordain +2 Sensei's Divining Top. Just an upgrade, I didn't want to overboard bringing in Chain of Vapor for Chains of Mephistopheles, I would have added them if I saw them.
I have to say sorry with my opponent this time, he starts land DRS, go, while I have the turn 1 kill in hand. Didn't see it in tournament since loads of time, but it's always good to draw such hands against decks with no FoWs ;) I had Polluted Delta, Underground Sea, Gitaxian Probe, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, LED, LED, Infernal Tutor including the turn draw, which was Sea. So, I say sorry and show him my hand.
2-0 and 3-1-1.
I bring the slip and sadly drop myself of the tournament, pretty disappointed to have played just 5 rounds in about 9 hours. The organization was terrible.. Even if I had time to stay I must had won all the 4 remaining matches, who knows what would I have done. I was quite tired, since I finished turn 9 of the modern event the day before almost at midnight (missing prizes for some positions :( ). So who knows.. Sad for Kai, I saw you in a good winning shape at the side event. You'll get back to winning soon, I'm sure about that!
Hope this report helps, I'm sorry if you got tired reading.
Bye!

[CabalTherapy]

Obviously I'm with you on the needle sentiment. I'm however unsure about Krosan Grip looking at Ad Nauseam. I'm not convinced that we need Decay #5-6 if we can disrupt SDT for a single colorless mana instead, while rendering additional SDT useless, not to talk about the Needles application against DRS, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Wasteland, Vial, Jace, etc. which was the reason I added it to the TES sideboard quite a while ago.

I now read the report :)

At first glance -although untested- I have to second what Lemnear wrote. (The day has come...)
Needle (against Miracles) > SDT or even on Jace supports the possiblity to win via double Tendrils/mini Tendrils/Grinding Station plan.

[Sloshthedark]

Obviously I'm with you on the needle sentiment. I'm however unsure about Krosan Grip looking at Ad Nauseam. I'm not convinced that we need Decay #5-6 if we can disrupt SDT for a single colorless mana instead, while rendering additional SDT useless, not to talk about the Needles application against DRS, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Wasteland, Vial, Jace, etc. which was the reason I added it to the TES sideboard quite a while ago.

I now read the report :)

I know, I read TES forum time to time... I'm not suggesting playing AD 5-6 I'm thinking about not playing AD 3-4 and CC is not an issue at least for me... I'm happy Nevilshute keeps putting up good results with a similar concept online... the report has too many typos, I had to leave home and finish it quickly or suspend it for days

Ghiwo - not bad, I'm sorry you had to leave, those rounds were ridiculous felt like 2 separate tournaments - Mtg and staring competition

[JamieW89]

Pretty sweet results for ANT @ Ovino, three in the first 18 is nice. Sweet reports also, Kai & Slosh.

It seems that there are now two main roads to attacking SDT from miracles.
1) Play 0-1 Tops and play Needle(s).
2) Play multiple Tops postboard and play Grip (perhaps 2 Decay 2 Grip is enough? Decay isn't the best removal against most other decks anyways, unless there is a ton of stuff like Painter)

Needle is more versatile and cuts off extra tops also. It can, however, be destroyed (EE for example). Grip also hits CB, where Needle hits Jace. Needle is also better with Ad Nauseam.
-> I would say that unless you really value boarding in extra tops (or playing multiple MD) highly versus Miracles Needle seems a little better to me. I'm certainly going to try out Grips some day though.

Another point: With so much deathblade around I think 2 Massacre are pretty good to have.

[Lemnear]

I know, I read TES forum time to time... I'm not suggesting playing AD 5-6 I'm thinking about not playing AD 3-4 and CC is not an issue at least for me... I'm happy Nevilshute keeps putting up good results with a similar concept online... the report has too many typos, I had to leave home and finish it quickly or suspend it for days

Ghiwo - not bad, I'm sorry you had to leave, those rounds were ridiculous felt like 2 separate tournaments - Mtg and staring competition

I guess for most pilots who rely on AN mainboard and rightfully consider it a superb natural draw against Miracles, adding cmc from the board leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Maybe the people running Grip can elaborate what targets other than SDT they have in mind for running that card.

For my personal taste, two factors about Needle vs. K.Grip appear more important than the manacost, namely being colorless (possibly no need to Fetch Tropical soon; comes handy against Griselbrand) and possibly "trading" for more than once card as additional copies of the named card drawn are suddenly dead (funny example: Probe, see opponent holding 2 Flooded Strands, drop P.Needle on Strand, YOLO)

[Surfinbird]

Hi! Today i've been testing the bug delver MU with a friend. 3-2 without side and 6-5 with side (losing against very fascist hands with lots variated hate).

To test i prepared the most best version of team america to beat our deck:

4 shaman, 4 goyf, 4 delver
4 brainstorm, 4 daze, 4 fow, 4 decay, 4 hymn, 3 cruise, 3 ponder, 2 liliana
20 lands

SB: 2 fluster, 2 thoughtseize, 2 Cages, 1 vendilion, 1 Null rod, 7 irrellevant cards

My list is the same as kai and my sideboard 3 xantid 3 dread 3 decay 3 chain 1 top 1 etw 1 krosan. Against i've boarded in 1 top and 1 etw in the place of 1 critual and 1 preordain. Is it correct?

I wrote down a few words of they games i lost. I havent got my notebook here, but i remember 3 of them, all with side:
1. T1 Cage, T2 hymn, T3 hymn T4 liliana
2. His hand was delver, shaman, hymn, fow, fluster and 2 lands and he was on the play
3. After some turns, i know he's got fow, fluster and brainstorm. I play a brainstorm putting a tutor in the top and leaving in my hand 3 discard spells and 4 mana productors. He topdecked a vendilion, took my my tutor when i drew it and killed me the next turn
I'm quite happy winning more than losing against our worst MU:D Also, it seems that in USA some players are changing hymns for thoughtseizes when including cruises... I hope this happens in europe!

What do you think about all what i've written?

[sawatarix]

you guys are missing the most important thing about krosan grip and the reason why it is so much better than pithin needle:
Splitsecond.

Needle can be countered easily and becomes a completely dead card against miracle if they have the cb-toplock online. Krosan Grip doesn't care about what our opponent has.
The 3-Mana investment is totally worth it and doesn't make your ad nauseam worse,you still get 13~ cards and win.
It was probably one of my best sideboardcards so i'm thinking of 3 Krosan Grips and 2 Decays right now.

ps: i wouldn't board in pithin needle against sneakshow or elves (as some of you suggested) even if i have 1-2 copies in my sideboard.

[P-E]

Krosan can be countered with cb if they have a 3 on top (clique or entreat)

[nevilshute]

Krosan can be countered with cb if they have a 3 on top (clique or entreat)

While that is true, it would have to be some serious next-leveling for them to leave a 3cmc spell on top of their deck against our all 0-1-2 cmc deck. They might once we've shown them the grip or if it becomes industry standard.

[Ghiwo]

I completely agree with Kai, if we want more answers to Miracles i believe that Krosan Grip is way better than Pithing Needle. I believe that for some points I'll try to explain: first of all they're both very narrow. Don't tell me you would board in Needle to fight things like Aether Vial, Wasteland, Sneak Attack, Deathrite Shaman, Jace.. We don't bother about those cards, that's overboarding for me. I could understand naming Griselbrand, but we're already boarding 5 or 6 in that match-up and Needle is worse in everything than both Chain of Vapor and Xantid Swarm. And I don't want to dilute my combo to board in more hate. Second point: Needle shuts down our own Tops, which are one of the best cards in this match-up. Once you have a Top online you are fine! Just search for what you need, sculpt a perfect hand, search for Decay and kill them! More, Top lets us go to 9 (!!) cards in hand to Natural Tendrils them in the combo-off turn! Third point: With Top-Balance Needle is completely dead. Fourth: Needle can be destroyed by Engineered Explosives, which they will be always bringing in!

Why are you scared so much about Top? If they just have a Top + counter floating you just need Decay EOT plus discard to take what they'll draw in response. If they have Balnce-Top, again Decay is the answer! Or, Krosan Grip is another, certainly better than Needle!

One more point: I don't like cutting Tops from the board to make room for Needle, since we can board in those Tops against Team America.

[Shaman]

If I remember right: 4x decay + 2x krosan grip was already the sideboard plan somebody proposed almost some months ago in the up-to-date Grinding Station sideboard as a plan to fight Miracles. I have been toying with it in MTGO and it is really good. Kai says it right: splisecond is the real reason behind the card.

[Lemnear]

you guys are missing the most important thing about krosan grip and the reason why it is so much better than pithin needle:
Splitsecond.

Needle can be countered easily and becomes a completely dead card against miracle if they have the cb-toplock online. Krosan Grip doesn't care about what our opponent has.
The 3-Mana investment is totally worth it and doesn't make your ad nauseam worse,you still get 13~ cards and win.
It was probably one of my best sideboardcards so i'm thinking of 3 Krosan Grips and 2 Decays right now.

ps: i wouldn't board in pithin needle against sneakshow or elves (as some of you suggested) even if i have 1-2 copies in my sideboard.

Hell, 80% of the deck is dead if countertop is assembled and I don't see a problem if Decay removes the Counterbalance and Needle blocks the whole card-quality/floating counter nonsense for the whole game, while vitually trading 1-for-4 while K.Grip can only deal with SDT on a 1-for-1 base.

I'm also sure the ~13 cards are a hyperbole between the self-inflicted damage via Probes/Fetchlands and plenty of 2cc+ spells in the deck postboard.

I dunno why you would miss out on Needle against Sneak Attack/Griselbrand. Can you elaborate your reasons?



Edit:

I completely agree with Kai, if we want more answers to Miracles i believe that Krosan Grip is way better than Pithing Needle. I believe that for some points I'll try to explain: first of all they're both very narrow. Don't tell me you would board in Needle to fight things like Aether Vial, Wasteland, Sneak Attack, Deathrite Shaman, Jace.. We don't bother about those cards, that's overboarding for me.

Why wouldn't you take the additional advantage of blanking Griselbrand, as S&T and Reanimator are among storms worst matchups? I would at least take DRS into consideration here. Not having to play around DRS via a Tutor chain or Ad Nauseam can be interresting if you face Thoughtseize + Hymn side by side with the Elf

I could understand naming Griselbrand, but we're already boarding 5 or 6 in that match-up and Needle is worse in everything than both Chain of Vapor and Xantid Swarm. And I don't want to dilute my combo to board in more hate.

This is nonsense on two levels. First, boarding CoV against Griselbrand should achieve what if your opponent is free to draw 14 cards? Your opponent returns the Griselbrand to his hand with plenty of counters in his hand and slaps you with Sneak Attack + hasty Griselbrand? Second, Xantid has the problem of requiring you to fetch the Tropical in a matchup I consider a race and therefore you want URB asap. Having to start a game against Sneak Show with a hand like Island + Xantid + Fetch is iffy. No?

Second point: Needle shuts down our own Tops, which are one of the best cards in this match-up. Once you have a Top online you are fine! Just search for what you need, sculpt a perfect hand, search for Decay and kill them! More, Top lets us go to 9 (!!) cards in hand to Natural Tendrils them in the combo-off turn! Third point: With Top-Balance Needle is completely dead. Fourth: Needle can be destroyed by Engineered Explosives, which they will be always bringing in!

- Who cares about a one-off?
- we had the topic "Assembled Countertop". You claim Needle being a dead card for boarding, but see no problem in sideboarding more Tops, Xantids, etc. for Miracles?
- Xantid can be destroyed with EE too and people still boarded it. Just because your opponent CAN board 1-2 answers doesn't render Needle an invalid option.

Why are you scared so much about Top? If they just have a Top + counter floating you just need Decay EOT plus discard to take what they'll draw in response. If they have Balnce-Top, again Decay is the answer! Or, Krosan Grip is another, certainly better than Needle!

One more point: I don't like cutting Tops from the board to make room for Needle, since we can board in those Tops against Team America.

Come on, 1 needle kills 4 SDT and all floating counters. Think you can compare this to the requirement of Decay + Discard to achieve the same? Do you seriously think you can profit more from SDT than your Miracles opponent?

[davelin]

Hell, 80% of the deck is dead if countertop is assembled and I don't see a problem if Decay removes the Counterbalance and Needle blocks the whole card-quality/floating counter nonsense for the whole game, while vitually trading 1-for-4 while K.Grip can only deal with SDT on a 1-for-1 base.

I'm also sure the ~13 cards are a hyperbole between the self-inflicted damage via Probes/Fetchlands and plenty of 2cc+ spells in the deck postboard.

I dunno why you would miss out on Needle against Sneak Attack/Griselbrand. Can you elaborate your reasons?

Agreed with Lem here, why would you put in your first Krosan Grip before your fourth Abrupt Decay?

[Sloshthedark]

Jamie - there were more ANT at top 30 tables last rounds, I'm not sure about names and placing, I know Bazzan was on TES

Lemnear - happend to me few times, got Needle FoWed because of 2 misty+Shaman hand, forces agressive fetching as a splash damage // haven't answered about Extirpate - I admit it's my pet card, I try out 2 time to time (facing 3 Snapcaster 3Flusterstorm lists tells you why), but it's too much cards for any MU, It has been a "joker" in so many matches I feel better, really shines in Miracles, S+T (super sweet with Intuition lists) and mirror (split second is very relevant) time to time... so I play 1 // Krosan Grip might have minor application vs. Omnitell, other than that it's worse in every MU other than Miracles

Krosan Grip - yeah split second, I had to see Kai playing it before it opened my eyes... it's the same thing Surgical Extraction vs. Extirpate, I taky Extripate any time unless in Dredge paradise, the argument Grip vs. AD is little different because non-split second is the universal one... Unless becoming a common tech the surprise factor is huge - it beats one of their common strategies - floating Flusterstorm/FoW hard and steals their draw


Kai - I'm also interested in your thoughts about S+T and Needle - if you played back then when S+T had Progenitus, Needle kind of takes you back in time when S+T MU was interesting only when they Showed you Emrakul, it's not perfect, same when they show you Sneak Attack you show them XS, they draw 14 and you die...

Pithing Needle - I don't think we are all on the same page with what Needle does with STD - 1. you obv board out/don't board in SDT, if your argument is it's one of the best cards in the MU, they have 4 of them, you don't 2, SDT is best filtering they have in a slow as hell deck that often does not play playset of Ponders has max 6 wincons in creatures that are better in hand than attacking... have you seen hands that Losset keeps because of top? If I were facing such lists I look no further... you do not plan to disrupt floating a counterspell in first place you plan to disrupt their whole strategy

Ghiwo - yes I board in Needle vs. DRS Liliana deck but that's a specific normal ANT might not face... I like to Needle Relic and Cursecatcher in Merfolk, Needle is great vs Sneak Attack, unless you mean the MonoR one

[Ghiwo]

Why wouldn't you take the additional advantage of blanking Griselbrand, as S&T and Reanimator are among storms worst matchups? I would at least take DRS into consideration here. Not having to play around DRS via a Tutor chain or Ad Nauseam can be interresting if you face Thoughtseize + Hymn side by side with the Elf

Yes blanking Griselbrand it's fine, but that's a sideboard argument, as I'll explain better in your next point. Blanking DRS, to me, seems just overboarding and not necessary. We are playing a deck that is already perfect to fight Team America, we just want some improvement, some upgrade. I wouldn't board in the Needles, just because we can beat DRS in other ways: tutor chain and Ad Nauseam, as you said, but even with 1 more ritual, Tutor-->Tutor-->PIF. In my opinion diluting our deck with Needles in this match-up isn't worth it. There's no other spell I would regret drawing over a Needle.

This is nonsense on two levels. First, boarding CoV against Griselbrand should achieve what if your opponent is free to draw 14 cards? Your opponent returns the Griselbrand to his hand with plenty of counters in his hand and slaps you with Sneak Attack + hasty Griselbrand? Second, Xantid has the problem of requiring you to fetch the Tropical in a matchup I consider a race and therefore you want URB asap. Having to start a game against Sneak Show with a hand like Island + Xantid + Fetch is iffy. No?

Yeah, but remember, Chain isn't here to bounce Griselbrand, we all know it's not good at doing that. It is there, but I'm 100% sure you know it, to bounce the white Leyline. The problem of Needle in this match-up, is that it's a poor version of xantid Swarm. If they have Leyline turn 0 they'll just let it resolve and counter your combo, I suppose. Xantid Swarm stops counters just better than Needle, even if Needle prevents them from drawing them. Who cares if they draw 7, 14, 21 if they can't play any spell? And they have no way to get rid of Swarm!! Also, Needle can't be a replacement of Chain, since Needle doesn't bounce Leyline. And I wouldn't board in more than those cards, because, as you said, it's a pure race, and we don't want to dilute our deck too much.

- Who cares about a one-off?
- we had the topic "Assembled Countertop". You claim Needle being a dead card for boarding, but see no problem in sideboarding more Tops, Xantids, etc. for Miracles?
- Xantid can be destroyed with EE too and people still boarded it. Just because your opponent CAN board 1-2 answers doesn't render Needle an invalid option.



Come on, 1 needle kills 4 SDT and all floating counters. Think you can compare this to the requirement of Decay + Discard to achieve the same? Do you seriously think you can profit more from SDT than your Miracles opponent?

I know very well that Needle is one of the best Miracles hosers. The problem is that, I think we can achieve the same goals with cards more useful in other match-ups, just like Top. Needle doesn't resolve completely some problems, because if they have Countertop online they can still mess with their top with Brainstorms and, during their turn, Ponder. So you will need a Decay anyway. And Top helps you find it. While Needles leaves you completely on cantrips, which could take REBs, Counterbalance triggers, and so on. Also, Needle doesn't blanks counters on top at all, just like Swarm does, since they still will have Brainstorms. Maybe I'm partial because I really love Top, I don't know, I just tried to explain my point

[Surfinbird]

Two quastions more:

How many cards would you have in your side to be sure you can beat death and taxes and GW Zenith? Personally i don't feel sure without 5 cards at least, 2 DoN, 2 Chains 1 Massacre (+some decays against zenith)

Empty the warrens is a good card in some situations in G2 and G3, allowing us combo in T1/2 and when Ad Nauseam and PiF can't be used. Otherwise, it's sometimes a dead card. Should we run one of it in the sideboard?

[Tav]

I think the sideboard I am going to start testing will be (with 1 SDT in the main):

+3 Xantid Swarm
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Chain of Vapor
+3 Dread of Night
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Karakas

This fits in the grips and an extra top for the grindy matches while still keeping the 3 dreads (which I have found to be near unbeatable for DnT) and a karakas (which I have always found to be insane, whether it is against reanimator or Thalia plus mom or show and tell).

[Lemnear]

Yes blanking Griselbrand it's fine, but that's a sideboard argument, as I'll explain better in your next point. Blanking DRS, to me, seems just overboarding and not necessary. We are playing a deck that is already perfect to fight Team America, we just want some improvement, some upgrade. I wouldn't board in the Needles, just because we can beat DRS in other ways: tutor chain and Ad Nauseam, as you said, but even with 1 more ritual, Tutor-->Tutor-->PIF. In my opinion diluting our deck with Needles in this match-up isn't worth it. There's no other spell I would regret drawing over a Needle.

in my books Team America is among the worst matchups for this deck due to the Trinity of discard-counter-fast damage. I don't think that sitting behind a slow card like SDT and sculpting a hand while being mauled by a Tarmogoyf and Hymn is a desirable position. I had Needle in mind for giving you more space to breathe as DRS into Hymn is a nasty start to make accumulating enough mana for the Tutor->Tutor->PIF line near impossible. Without DRS eating your yard and dealing damage in addition to their other creatures, recovering from a Hymn/Thoughtseize should be much easier

Yeah, but remember, Chain isn't here to bounce Griselbrand, we all know it's not good at doing that. It is there, but I'm 100% sure you know it, to bounce the white Leyline. The problem of Needle in this match-up, is that it's a poor version of xantid Swarm. If they have Leyline turn 0 they'll just let it resolve and counter your combo, I suppose. Xantid Swarm stops counters just better than Needle, even if Needle prevents them from drawing them. Who cares if they draw 7, 14, 21 if they can't play any spell? And they have no way to get rid of Swarm!! Also, Needle can't be a replacement of Chain, since Needle doesn't bounce Leyline. And I wouldn't board in more than those cards, because, as you said, it's a pure race, and we don't want to dilute our deck too much.

Leyline of Sanctity has fallen from grace these times if you look up S&T lists from the last 4 months, so I'm no longer 100% sold on Auto-boarding CoV. The Problem with Xantid is that dropping it DOES NOT give you more time against S&T! Claiming that SneakShow can't get rid of Swarm and that them drawing cards doesn't matter is missing the Forest for the trees. They can use the Griselbrand to draw into Sneak Attack + Emrakul and kill you the next turn or S&T an Emrakul into play which only leaves you a 1-turn-window to kill them while you had to fetch for a suboptimal land to cast Xantid. It's even worse if your Xantid is directly answered by Sneak Attack into Griselbrand into drawing 14 into Petal for R to let Emrakul join and kill you. Here Needle on Sneak Attack makes hell of a difference.

I know very well that Needle is one of the best Miracles hosers. The problem is that, I think we can achieve the same goals with cards more useful in other match-ups, just like Top. Needle doesn't resolve completely some problems, because if they have Countertop online they can still mess with their top with Brainstorms and, during their turn, Ponder. So you will need a Decay anyway. And Top helps you find it. While Needles leaves you completely on cantrips, which could take REBs, Counterbalance triggers, and so on. Also, Needle doesn't blanks counters on top at all, just like Swarm does, since they still will have Brainstorms. Maybe I'm partial because I really love Top, I don't know, I just tried to explain my point

I'm not sold on Top instead of more cantrips/LDV/2nd PIF in general, but that's just me and not an argument here. I want to focus on the usefullness of Needle vs K.Grip in other matchups which was my point as I talked about Wasteland/DRS/etc. in the previous post. Sure, Miracles can meddle with their Counterbalance via Ponder/Brainstorm, but I'm really looking forward to any Miracles Opponent Burning cantrips each round (because they can't float the guaranteed 1cmc with SDT) just to keep 1cc/2cc spells floating out of pure fear, while I can play "land, go" until the inevitable eot Decay. Brainstorm into FoW is not an argument; you can discard the Brainstorm and call it a day :)