I agree. While I haven't tested Treasure Cruise, so far I'm loving Dig Through Time (TC's mega Impulse counterpart). One thing I don't think a lot of people realize is how top deck dependent this deck can get, and Sensei's Divining Top and Kozilek only go so far because Top is making the best of a bad situation, and there is only (generally only) one Kozilek to pull us out of topdeck mode. Khans has graced the entire legacy format with two new advantage gaining cards, both which deserve testing especially from us because we don't have to lean as heavily on the delve aspect as other decks. And that is a flaw in the UR Delver decks because from my testing, their goal is to burn their hand to try to burn their opponent to the ground, and delve out of topdeck mode before we come back. That means their deck is built more towards delve than a long game plan, which has cost me a lot of test games with UR (although I will admit I just may be playing the deck wrong).Originally Posted by TimHarding
This is what I'm currently playing:
// Lands
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
// Creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Trinket Mage
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Artifacts
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
//Instants
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
4 Repeal
//Sorceries
2 Show and Tell
// Sideboard
4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
4 Hydroblast
2 Karn Liberated
1 Bojuka Bog
And right now I'm considering moving Bog back to the mainboard because it's more relevant than ever being able to reset opposing Delve count, and also having to wait until game two to beat a dredge deck last night. Losing to an outlier like that is annoying.
Last edited by Mockingbird; 10-07-2014 at 08:23 PM.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
This deck only has an issue vs BUG delver in terms of discard decks. POX is not a thing and is very beatable compared to BUG delver.
I could see Dig through Time and/or Treasure Cruise being useful in that matchup but beyond that, I can't fathom it being necessary.
The question I pose to you is what changed all of the sudden in terms of matchups to warrant those cards?
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I see the point, but I think the better question is: When is drawing 3 cards bad?
This reminds me of when standstill came out. Wizards gives you an ancestral recall wannabe, you gladly accept. Similar to ponder, and preordain's relationship with brainstorm.
Dig through time looks sweet but I think UU is too harsh to ever seriously consider in eldrazi.
If it's "free" then of course it's never. But t1 would you rather have SDT or TC in your hand? How about t2 or t3?
What are you cutting for it. Then ask if there are situation the card you're cutting for TC would be better than TC.
I feel like Repeal and Crop rotation as well as P.Needle (debatable) are much better suited in advancing the game plan early than TC.
The deck has no problems late game imo, it's the early game vs BUG and other aggro decks where you can get pinned under wastelands/dazes/hymns.
I would not cut early game cards for TC I guess is what I am trying to say.
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TC lets you normalize what was a problematic matchup, and opens up your sideboard to far more answers for outlier combo. Example, I'm able to put 15 anti-combo cards in my sideboard now, whereas before I need 2-3 dedicated slots against bug-anything, and even then the matchup was heinous against equal draws.
My entire journey into red was because of BUG. Punishing Fire, Bonfire, Sudden Shocks all because they were mana efficient at dealing with threats. TC does the same because it fundamentally changes how you can construct a deck, allowing it to be more immediate and disadvantageous. People see TC and say "its a brick, completely dead until late game," but they don't see that this enables you to construct the rest of your deck and sb to be better faster solutions.
Yeah, if you're getting railed in the early turns, you'll have a ton of dead shit, and be able to cast TC easily - right when you need it. If you don't have the fuel early, you're probably not getting railed, and are in good shape to win from there, and TC the helps you find win con. For combo pitch it to FOW, or use it to refill - kind of like how we leave in kozilek against combo.
In my experience, even before Dig Through Time's release,is significantly easier to achieve than
in UG 12-Post because the deck leans heavily on blue. The difficulty with
Tezzeret the Seeker
Memnarch (even though sparingly need to go that intense in blue, making something into an artifact to be stealable is useful *coughmyTarmogoyf/Jace*cough* in match-ups where he came in)
Force of Will (I hardcast Force in this deck more than any Legacy deck I can think of off the top of my head)
I'm just going to say to not knock it until it has been examined as well.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
Well, I just got back from my weekly and my mind is somewhat blown. First off, I went 3-1, which was good enough for third. I lost against Patriot Delver - no, I'm not calling it by whatever the RWB Khan name is - which is I feel one of the easier Delver matchups. Wasteland did just enough to keep me off Eldrazi mana, ultimately resulting in my demise. This was the only deck I faced tonight which ran them, and yeah, getting hit by one still sucks. (As an aside, a few people in my group brought up the possible merits of Stifle in the slot that used to contain Pithing Needle. I admit, I'm intrigued. It's not the worst idea I've ever heard.)
HOLY CRAP TREASURE CRUISE IS INSANE.
I just had to get that out. You guys, seriously. Rock may or may not be an evil genius, but you'd better get used to the card. You're going to see it, and you're going to see it a lot. I would go so far as to say I wouldn't be surprised to see it get restricted in Vintage. It is that strong. And guess what? We're uniquely qualified to run it, because we don't necessarily have to exile 5-7 cards every time to cast it if we don't want to. Try the damn card out already. Get used to it. Again, you will see it a lot. I resolved three in a single game against Sneak and Show, and it turns out drawing multiple Repeal, Chain of Vapor, Hydroblast, and Force of Will while riding on a Glen Elendra Archmage is pretty damn sweet. And holy crap did I miss the Archmage from when I used to run Tim's old lists.
Let me also say that, as I alluded to in an earlier post, I feel like a complete noob playing this deck again. Rock's latest list plays a lot differently than what most of us are used to. Starting keeps feel a little different now. Sideboarding is different now. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that I feel like I'm playing a whole new deck, but it's close.
Just try the Cruise builds out already. It does things: powerful, ridiculous things. And even if you don't play with it, you'll play against it, sooner rather than later.
Won one of my weekly events with this list
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [LRW] Island (1)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
Went 4-0 over 9 games. U/W miraclesx2, Elves, Shardless bug were my matchups.
What do you guys predict the GP New Jersey meta will be like? And how should the list be tweaked to anticipate the meta for this event?
If nothing unexpected happens, I would expect you to run into many miracles and Treasure Cruises, so my suggestion would to prepare for the UR matchup.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Gp nj will be full of Budget decks, I would expect a high number of burn. There is a lot of ppl who just go there because the playmat an so cost 100$ more tan what u pay for it. And they will go with whatever. There is already like 3500 ppl and there is one month missing. So modern and t2 players will buy a deck like burn or so and try to get there.
I think BUG Delver will soon drop their Tourach opting for more Thoughtseizes, because with many decks running TC you're basically helping your opponent being the first to play his own TC. If this happens, then the matchup should become easier.
Lets talk about our real bad matchup, storm and friends. How do you beat Xanthid Swarm? Do you find that repealing it is enough? I found it a pretty weak strategy, also because we have access to limited blue mana sources. Most of the times they'll spend their mana replaying it, bringing you back to the same situation unless you have a Fow to burn or you're hardcasting Emrakul the very next turn.
If they do not see Swarm, then i'm fine, but if they do, they can simply ignore most if not all our hate and kill us pretty easily.
I really like the idea of 4 Treasure Cruises and 2-3 Cloud of Faeries and will try to get them in my deck.
But some questions:
Why Kozilek over Ulamog? In my eyes there is enough draw and destroying a permanent (Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Karakas) was always fine to me.
Why no Forests / 3 Islands? I would like a split of 2 / 2 more. I am playing in a Blood Moon heavy meta, so I want to be able to hardcast Titan.
Anybody missing Ptihing Needle? No more need for them? I am not sure I want to go out without them, tooo much Wastelands...
Thanks for answers.
Candle-less was ok? Exciting for those of us who don't have them.
Koz is a hard card-draw effect, and whilst Ulamog has its uses, your temp-removal should be able to handle most of the cards played.
In the TC build, it's more important to cast your TC and your temporary removal than it is to cast your Titan, because your Titan can be cast after your temp-removal is.
Needles seem to be a meta-call, although Stifles or Trickbinds are also useful as anti-Waste tech, so in a Waste-heavy meta you're likely to need the Needles, although they have reduced effectiveness against decks that play hard removal, such as Abrupt Decay.
Due to the amount of people that want the LOOT, I'm going to guess the most popular decks in the early rounds will be: Burn, UR Delver, Infect.
Here's my reasoning...
- Burn is cheap and requires little playtesting to play it effectively.
- UR Delver. It won the 1st Khans Open and really it's not that expensive to build. Without Volc's and FoWs, this deck is also cheap to build.
- Infect. It's won two invitationals in a Row. The SCG NJ Open had tons of infect players. They didn't break top 16, but there were droves of them.
Once you get through that myriad of stuff, then you can expect to play through the norm of legacy decks.
Our theory is large legacy events don't expect to play against the same archetype more than once. Unless, the next 3-5 SCG opens show that treasure cruise is so busted that it warps the metagame.
There are always two directions when anticipating meta shifts. What will be dominant (the majority of top table representatives) and what fights the trending (the counter-meta call deck that will be underrepresented, but has the ability to sweep the dominant trend). In this case I'm suspecting dominance is Treasure Cruise.deck, be that U/R Delver or U/W/R Delver, burn with TC, etc. Knowing those matchups are hugely important, and having a plan against TC swinging tempo is paramount.
What I think is the counter-deck choice is U/W Miracles with RiP/Helm combo, or DnT with Maindeck RiP in a hate slot. I think as a counter-counter decision, you will see decks running Helm of Obedience in their sideboard as a cheeky way of fighting RiP being sided in against their Treasure Cruises.
Super outlier decks that Treasure cruise inadvertently, ie not by their inclusion but rather the archetypes the card promotes, made better are: Big Red, Belcher, Ant, Elves.
It wasn't nearly as ropey as it has been in the past. Cloud of faeries is actually amazing, but involves having to play even tighter and more calculated than before. Also my brain still has issues with cloud of faerie untap math. Multiple times I had to just plain write it out on my notes.
I commented to my final round opponent that this was the first time I've done decently with no candelabra in the deck. Don't hold out too much hope though, my builds I've been testing since then include both cloud of faeries and candelabras. This is the first candelabra-less build I would suggest for a "budget" version.
Thanks for the update -- for now I'll just keep hoping a viable Candelbra-less build emerges.
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