[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Admiral_Arzar]

You have to pay instead of .

More seriously, I don't expect to have UU more than like two thirds of the time around turn 3-4 against a Wasteland deck. Also 1 vs 2 is a big difference in playing around Daze. Those are independent of tapping out or not. And let's be real, Team America taps out most turns if things are going well.

Also nice double Bayou, triple double-blue spell manabase. Although to be fair, it's not realistic to play 4 Hymns and 2 Lili without the two Bayous.

I would consider Dig Through Time in a list that dumped the double-black spells for Stifle or Thoughtseize and thus didn't need to play multiple Bayous. True-Name Nemesis would be a natural inclusion in such a list, but at this point we're moving towards BUG midrange rather than Team America. Still interesting to think about though.

[AngryTroll]

Scavenging Ooze might be worth keeping in mind as the format moves forwards. The Ooze is already fantastic against opposing Deathrites and, although mana-intensive, can keep opponents off of Treasure Cruise for the entire game. It also dodges concern about the size of our Tarmogoyfs if both players are Delving away their graveyards. Goyf almost always counts a creature in a graveyard, so Ooze should always be at least a 3/3. Ooze is obviously worse in multiples than Goyf unless both players are Delving and the Goyfs are small.

I'm not saying we should replace Goyf, but I'll be keeping Ooze in mind as I playtest to see how it compares to Goyf.

[wcm8]

I've experimented with cutting some number of Goyf to fit in a couple GSZ and an Ooze. Not outside the realm of possibility.

[YamiJoey]

Rebuilt from the ground up:

Permanents: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Envelop
2 Spell Pierce
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Main points of interest:

3 Goyf/1 Scooze: It's a simple swap for now. We think Scooze will be good in the format because of Delve, and it gets bigger than a Goyf quick enough. Too many might get awkward.
4 Seize/0 Hymn: Seize is good at getting Dredge online, whilst stripping Cruises out of people's hands. Hymn would be fine, as it's another card advantage engine, but it's slow, and we want to be casting Spells fast.
4 Decay: The lack of Hymns means we can go bigger on removal. Decay is the best, so that's settled.
1 Dimir Charm: I wanted Envelop and Disfigure in the main. This will have to do. I was against it, but we can give anything a shot.
3 Treasure Cruise: The new toy. I would like to draw three, yes please.
1 Bayou/2 Trop: Mixed to make Scooze better.
0 additional threats: I usually have Library, Lili, TNN, or something in the main. Cruise is taking all of these slots.

2 Disfigure/2 Envelop: The relevant modes of Dimir Charm. Envelop is good against the Cruise decks we'll be seeing pop up, but also against combo decks and Miracles.
BB, Library, and Jace: Miracles. Because it's the best deck in the format, so I want my plan to be unbeatable. I have up to a 14 card sideboard for this.
Lili: Helps beat the mirror a little, but is also a good 'bomb' against combo. A resolved and protected Lili is beaten only by flooding out into an Ad Nauseam or PiF. I like those odds.

[FoolofaTook]

Scavenging Ooze might be worth keeping in mind as the format moves forwards. The Ooze is already fantastic against opposing Deathrites and, although mana-intensive, can keep opponents off of Treasure Cruise for the entire game. It also dodges concern about the size of our Tarmogoyfs if both players are Delving away their graveyards. Goyf almost always counts a creature in a graveyard, so Ooze should always be at least a 3/3. Ooze is obviously worse in multiples than Goyf unless both players are Delving and the Goyfs are small.

I'm not saying we should replace Goyf, but I'll be keeping Ooze in mind as I playtest to see how it compares to Goyf.

Ooze doesn't compare to Goyf. The raw power level just isn't there and it's bad in multiples. As a 2-of maybe to supplement Deathrite Shaman's GY control and for when RiP has made Goyf into a lamb.

[FoolofaTook]

Rebuilt from the ground up:

Permanents: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Envelop
2 Spell Pierce
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Main points of interest:

3 Goyf/1 Scooze: It's a simple swap for now. We think Scooze will be good in the format because of Delve, and it gets bigger than a Goyf quick enough. Too many might get awkward.
4 Seize/0 Hymn: Seize is good at getting Dredge online, whilst stripping Cruises out of people's hands. Hymn would be fine, as it's another card advantage engine, but it's slow, and we want to be casting Spells fast.
4 Decay: The lack of Hymns means we can go bigger on removal. Decay is the best, so that's settled.
1 Dimir Charm: I wanted Envelop and Disfigure in the main. This will have to do. I was against it, but we can give anything a shot.
3 Treasure Cruise: The new toy. I would like to draw three, yes please.
1 Bayou/2 Trop: Mixed to make Scooze better.
0 additional threats: I usually have Library, Lili, TNN, or something in the main. Cruise is taking all of these slots.

2 Disfigure/2 Envelop: The relevant modes of Dimir Charm. Envelop is good against the Cruise decks we'll be seeing pop up, but also against combo decks and Miracles.
BB, Library, and Jace: Miracles. Because it's the best deck in the format, so I want my plan to be unbeatable. I have up to a 14 card sideboard for this.
Lili: Helps beat the mirror a little, but is also a good 'bomb' against combo. A resolved and protected Lili is beaten only by flooding out into an Ad Nauseam or PiF. I like those odds.

Is Thoughtseize better than Stifle in that type of configuration?

Is it better than Spell Pierce x2 and Counterspell x2?

It just seems so terribly weak against Miracles and opposing Delver lists. Basically it seems weak against anything running Brainstorm.

[btm10]

BB, Library, and Jace: Miracles. Because it's the best deck in the format, so I want my plan to be unbeatable. I have up to a 14 card sideboard.

I remain unconvinced that Miracles is the best deck in the format, but that's a separate issue. If you're particularly concerned with beating it, then I'd definitely be running a second Needle in the board, probably over the third Golgari Charm. Also, not a fan of Envelop over Pierce or Negate. The ability to hit non-sorcery spells is relevant against not only Miracles, but also Sneak, Painter, Reanimator, Storm, Blade decks, Burn, and in the mirror. I prefer Negate because it's a hard counter, but if you want a more tempo-y play, then I can see a rationale for Pierce. Envelop just doesn't do enough.

[Manipulato]

I remain unconvinced that Miracles is the best deck in the format, but that's a separate issue. If you're particularly concerned with beating it, then I'd definitely be running a second Needle in the board, probably over the third Golgari Charm. Also, not a fan of Envelop over Pierce or Negate. The ability to hit non-sorcery spells is relevant against not only Miracles, but also Sneak, Painter, Reanimator, Storm, Blade decks, Burn, and in the mirror. I prefer Negate because it's a hard counter, but if you want a more tempo-y play, then I can see a rationale for Pierce. Envelop just doesn't do enough.

I tried Envelop in the past too and was not that happy with it because it's a most of the time a really special SB card and not flexible enough for my taste. Every time I played it I Immediatley replaced it after the turney with additional Pierces.

[iostream]

I remain unconvinced that Miracles is the best deck in the format, but that's a separate issue. If you're particularly concerned with beating it, then I'd definitely be running a second Needle in the board, probably over the third Golgari Charm. Also, not a fan of Envelop over Pierce or Negate. The ability to hit non-sorcery spells is relevant against not only Miracles, but also Sneak, Painter, Reanimator, Storm, Blade decks, Burn, and in the mirror. I prefer Negate because it's a hard counter, but if you want a more tempo-y play, then I can see a rationale for Pierce. Envelop just doesn't do enough.

The Negate idea seems interesting. I find that it's often hard to soft-counter Treasure Cruise because it's usually played later in the game (when people have 3+ lands) for 1 mana. It's also good against Miracles. But 2 mana might be too costly for this deck to keep up.

[btm10]

The Negate idea seems interesting. I find that it's often hard to soft-counter Treasure Cruise because it's usually played later in the game (when people have 3+ lands) for 1 mana. It's also good against Miracles. But 2 mana might be too costly for this deck to keep up.

I ran it at my local last week and it was great every time I drew it. I'm considering Mana Leak because it's more flexible, but I think I'm happier with Negate just being a hard counter. My instincts are generally to be more controlling, so my style is usually to have a creature or two and just hold mana up to protect them with Negate. I've also been on Thoughtseize since switching to Cruise, which also helps with holding up 1U. I run Negate mostly for the Miracles and Show and Tell matchups, but they've been doing work in a lot of other places, too.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

The Negate idea seems interesting. I find that it's often hard to soft-counter Treasure Cruise because it's usually played later in the game (when people have 3+ lands) for 1 mana. It's also good against Miracles. But 2 mana might be too costly for this deck to keep up.

What about Duress? The card never disappoints.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2

[YamiJoey]

With only a single Bayou and DRS, I'd rather just play Counterspell. Christ, Mana Leak is better than Negate. Because who the fuck is playing around Mana Leak anyway?

[FoolofaTook]

With only a single Bayou and DRS, I'd rather just play Counterspell. Christ, Mana Leak is better than Negate. Because who the fuck is playing around Mana Leak anyway?

Counterspell is good in this meta. 2x not 4x. Countering just about anything from the midgame on can be a win but
countering TC and NO is a must.

[btm10]

With only a single Bayou and DRS, I'd rather just play Counterspell. Christ, Mana Leak is better than Negate. Because who the fuck is playing around Mana Leak anyway?

I'm less concerned with people deliberately playing around Leak than I am with them incidentally playing around Leak. Not that Leak isn't worth testing (I'm testing it now), but decks like Elves and 12post can easily have a pile of mana left over after casting a key spell like NO or Show and Tell, rendering Leak effectively dead. This is also relevant against Miracles (games fo long and they are good at making land drops) and Show and Tell decks (due to Sol lands) in thr midgame.

In BUG midrange/control, I prefer Counterspell for a number of reasons. But in Delver, having to hold up UU essentially locks you out of any BB haymakers like Liliana and Hymn and forces you to hold UU up in many situations where holding up UB or UG would be better, especially if you've already shown Dimir Charm to your opponent.

[FoolofaTook]

I tried Envelop in the past too and was not that happy with it because it's a most of the time a really special SB card and not flexible enough for my taste. Every time I played it I Immediatley replaced it after the turney with additional Pierces.

I was really skeptical about Envelop also. I put 2 in the SB because the meta has changed a lot with the delve spells. It has real targets in many of the top tier lists at this point.

Miracles - Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Council's Judgement and Ponder, although I'd probably never counter Ponder unless they were in top deck mode without a top on the board. Envelop is great vs Miracles assuming you are not boarding out Spell Pierce to get it in. I board out a solo Spell Snare (catches only Counterbalance and Rest in Peace, neither of which will likely kill a list featuring Abrupt Decay) and Toxic Deluge and the Envelops are all gravy from there.

Elves - Glimpse of Nature, Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order. Spell Pierce out because after turn 2 it will not be worth anything at all and the way Elves plays spells it frequently isn't worth anything on turn 2.

BUG Delver - Whichever discard they are featuring, Treasure Cruise, Ponder when they are in top deck mode. Sometimes in, sometimes not. If they're not playing 3+ Treasure Cruise I just leave it out.

UR Delver - Treasure Cruise, Chain Lightning, Ponder in topdeck mode, probably not Gitaxian Probe although I could see countering it mid-game or if you were holding an early hand that had strengths and weaknesses you couldn't afford to reveal. Always in against UR Delver, must stop Treasure Cruise because 1-for-1 their assets are inferior to ours. Stopping Chain Lightning and Forked Bolt from killing our DRS and Delver (and sometimes us) is a plus.

Sneak and Show - Show and Tell, Gitaxian Probe, Pyroclasm, Ponder if they're in topdeck mode. Have not played this matchup yet with Envelop. Good targets in it but I'm not sure how the mix will work with BEB and Hydroblasts already tuning in for Sneak Attack, Blood Moon and Through the Breach.

D&T - No targets.

Esperblade - Targets but not worth the tune. Too many killer assets are permanents.

Burn - Lots of targets, not sure if it's worth the tune or not. I beat Burn 2-0 last week and I don't think I put the Envelops in. I put in the 3 blue blasts and kept the Spell Pierces and Spell Snare in.

Reanimator - Envelop is like Reanimator's personal demon. Play it alongside Spell Pierce and you'll have them out-countered on the cheap.

Before Treasure Cruise this would have been a "it's very good against Elves and Miracles" post. Treasure Cruise really changed things.

[FoolofaTook]

Went 3-0 tonight at the shop. Beat Enchantress 2-1, UR Delver 2-1 and then Miracles 2-1. Last week was MBC 2-0, Miracles 0-1, Burn 2-0 so I'm feeling pretty salty about the list at the moment.

Only changes this week were -1 Ensnaring Bridge main for +1 Toxic Deluge and -1 Psionic Blast main for +1 Dimir Charm. Really liked the Dimir Charm. It's there for good. The sideboard was -1 Toxic Deluge (to main) and +1 Pernicious Deed, -1 Marsh Casualties and +1 Darkblast. The Darkblast won me the match against UR Delver, killing a Delver of Secrets, 2 Young Pyromancers and a Grim Lavamancer in game 3 and turning it into a walkover. Thinking about going 2 Darkblasts in the SB at this point although not sure what will come out.

The Miracles player, a different player than the guy who beat me 1-0 last week was a bit upset at the end of the match because he thought I was meta-gaming against Miracles with the Envelops and the Dimir Charm. He's a really nice guy so I was a bit surprised that he was bothered by the match. I laid out my list for him including the SB and detailed exactly what I was meta-gaming against and I think he was ok at that point.

For the record I'm meta-gaming against Treasure Cruise, UR Delver, BUG Control and Miracles in that order. I figure if I can have a positive matchup against that card and those 3 lists I'm probably going to be ok overall. Elves is a problem but I think it is manageable in the 75 I have now if not a positive matchup. The only list that really worries me at the moment is UR Delver and I still haven't decided if the list is good enough against them.

Edit: whoops, missed a big change. Took out the Creeping Tarpit and put in a Soldevi Excavations for it. The idea was to speed up Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time a little and it worked. Sacing an untapped island puts it in the GY and then tapping the Soldevi Excavations for and delving the island gives you 3 mana instead of 2 on that turn. A byproduct of the change was the game 2 win over Miracles when I scryed my way to the Abrupt Decay I needed to get rid of Rest In Peace and beat him with a Goyf and DRS. Scrying every turn at end of turn is really strong in the control mirror. I was putting everything I saw that would not remove RiP on the bottom and looking at a minimum of 2 cards a turn trying to find the 4 Abrupt Decays and 2 Krosan Grips.

[YamiJoey]

I'm less concerned with people deliberately playing around Leak than I am with them incidentally playing around Leak. Not that Leak isn't worth testing (I'm testing it now), but decks like Elves and 12post can easily have a pile of mana left over after casting a key spell like NO or Show and Tell, rendering Leak effectively dead. This is also relevant against Miracles (games fo long and they are good at making land drops) and Show and Tell decks (due to Sol lands) in thr midgame.

In BUG midrange/control, I prefer Counterspell for a number of reasons. But in Delver, having to hold up UU essentially locks you out of any BB haymakers like Liliana and Hymn and forces you to hold UU up in many situations where holding up UB or UG would be better, especially if you've already shown Dimir Charm to your opponent.

You know that it's basically impossible to hold up UU without also holding up basically any other combination in this deck, right? Sea, Sea, Bayou, which would be a rare Fetch in this version, would leave me on cast Seize (or maybe Goyf if I have a fourth Land) hold up UU, BB, UB. If DRS is in the mis you have literally whatever you need all of the time. Holding up UU is not hard.

I get what you mean about Mana Leak, but it might still be worthwhile. T1 DRS -> Seize Leak, or Waste Leak, or whatever. Seems pretty nuts. You can even Daze -> Leak -> Waste. That's be a very good opener. It's not supposed to be good late, it's supposed to be good when it matters. I have actually talked myself into Counterspell again.

[btm10]

You know that it's basically impossible to hold up UU without also holding up basically any other combination in this deck, right? Sea, Sea, Bayou, which would be a rare Fetch in this version, would leave me on cast Seize (or maybe Goyf if I have a fourth Land) hold up UU, BB, UB. If DRS is in the mis you have literally whatever you need all of the time. Holding up UU is not hard.

I get what you mean about Mana Leak, but it might still be worthwhile. T1 DRS -> Seize Leak, or Waste Leak, or whatever. Seems pretty nuts. You can even Daze -> Leak -> Waste. That's be a very good opener. It's not supposed to be good late, it's supposed to be good when it matters. I have actually talked myself into Counterspell again.

With DRS out, it's almost always correct to leave Bayou up and you usually want to use your other mana to either disrupt your opponent, draw more cards, or play threats. In your example (or even with Sea, Trop, Bayou), I couldn't play out a Delver, Ponder, or Brainstorm and leave up UU. I could play a Deathrite or a Thoughtseize, but every other line would take me off of Counterspell.

As for Leak, I'm currently less concerned with being able to counter Creatures than I am with being able to cover my bases against noncreature spells like Planeswalkers and combo pieces, so the card going long matters.

[YamiJoey]

Unless you're against Reanimator or Dredge, I'd rather have Sea up with DRS. I have Ux for Spellcasting, and can burn them if need be. You rarely have either the opportunity, or the need to Exile a Creature. My fetches in a list that looked something like this would be very skewed toward the Spells I'm expecting to cast:

4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Seize
4 Decay
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force
2 Cruise

T1 Sea -> Delver is good and fine, but I'm very likely to get a Trop very shortly after. Black becomes much more of a supporting role in this kind of a deck, and you will only ever really need one per turn. You're much more of a Tropical Delver deck with Black than a Sea Delver with Green.

[wcm8]

EDIT: Assuming you can change an opponents Treasure Cruise and/or Dig Through Time to target yourself.

You can't.

You could if they said, "Target player [does X]" -- e.g. Ancestral Recall. Unfortunately these spells can't be redirected. The only way to 'steal' those sort of cards is via something like Commandeer.