I continue to not understand this mentality. Hymn to Tourach hasn't been stellar for a while, which is why I am only running two, but it has continued to do its job over the years and it did so well up until Khans came around and made everyone go "oh no!". Why is that? "Treasure Cruise" isn't enough. If you want to say that the flavor-of-the-month rise in UR Delver makes Hymn to Tourach a not as favorable option at the moment, sure. I might even be interested to see what alternatives people could come up with for those slots. But why condemn Hymn to Tourach and then pretend like Inquisition of Kozilek has comparatively redeemable qualities? If you're going to hedge against the meta, the truth is that both suck with Inquisition of Kozilek sucking infinitely more. Against Miracles and UR Delver, which are the respective "best deck" and "flavor of the month", you don't want Hymn to Tourach. Granted. So why put in Inquisition? Why not replace Hymn with things that are relevant both globally and in those specific match-ups like a final Abrupt Decay instead of with a card that's somehow manages to be more useless?Originally Posted by sdematt
Inquisition of Kozilek is a slippery slope into a deck that is at a glance satisfying but in practice is basically involves a lot of masturbation and self-loathing. Chaining Thoughtseize effects does nothing but run you into a worthless stalemate. Hymn to Tourach is ol' reliable. It's a supplemental break in monotony and swings the game in your favor. It steals two cards at random and doesn't give a fuck and is absolutely key against bad match-ups like combo and Burn and riff-raff like 12Post. Do I board it out? When necessary. And I'm learning more and more when that is. But I know it's still a whole hell of a lot better than a nerfed Thoughtseize whose, with an inability to hit crucial bombs, only consistent function is being able to snipe their spot removal. That is not justification.
After a bit more testing today, I have to say that it is feeling more and more like punishing fire is still a necessity. I have creamed tempo with the non punishing, but other decks that are usually byes for me have become troublesome. I have lost to Bant, multiple Shardless BUG, multiple Death/Stoneblade, and Miracles more than usual. I haven't faced Maverick or Death and Taxes, but I have to imagine without punishing fire the scales tip to their side.
If anyone has any ideas on how to improve the tempo matchups while still running P/Grove combo I am all ears.
Why not ask how to improve non-tempo MUs without PFire? Because that's easy:
-Play Deluge
-Play Loam
-Play Library
PFire is a crutch that, while powerful, I think is necessary to go to make the deck better in the long run.
@Jelly
Yes, TC is the reason, and it's not UR delver; it's all delver, some combo, and probably more.
Imagine you're on the draw.
-They fetch, play a dude, go
-You play DRS, something, go
-They play a land or fetch, kill drs, go
-You Hymn them
-They TC out of it and play a land and a threat
So they've had a threat on the board for two turns while you're trying to develop or disrupt them, and now they're two threats ahead and a card ahead because you hymned and missed. Targeted discard can now have a higher CA value (by negating theirs) than hymn, while having less tempo loss.
This was all assuming:
-They didn't waste you and TC anyways
-The T1 threat they had wasn't DRS
-That you got a DRS on the draw
-They didn't daze or force your hymn
I didn't give you a terribly unfavorable start; just the 50% chance they went first and killed your DRS. Everything else is normal. Had you TS'd T2 you would've nabbed TC and been at card parity with mana for a Bolt or something. Instead you hymned, they TC'd, so you lost tempo AND card advantage, simply because their card is better than yours.
Hymn is good, but their card is essentially "mind twist good."
It's not like it's just UR Delver running Treasure Cruise, though. It's BUG Delver, UWr Delver, Canadian is trying it, the blade midrange decks can still run it, etc. It's freaking everywhere. I think it'll likely hedge back over time as more people are fighting it, similar to TNN, but the point still stands. As well, Dig makes Omni an exceptionally good deck. I predict in coming months Omni will be a deck to beat again. It has tools to fight all the hatebears and it has good game against counters. Because of this, you want to grab SnT as much as you can. That deck hinges on Dream Halls and Show and Tell, and Hymn to Tourach affecting card density is not where you want to be, but instead, targeted selection in your discard.
I think against Density based combo decks, like Storm, Hymn it just fine.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the underlined statement. IoK isn't ideal, I agree. I doesn't even grab Cruise, Jace, FoW, etc. But, is Duress better, or Hymn? Duress might be slightly better in that you can grab those bomby non-creatures, since realistically, maybe you don't care about creatures in this format. Or, maybe Cabal Therapy is the way to go.
I just feel like if your meta had a bunch of stuff where Hymn is pretty meh, then why play it? That's all I'm trying to say.
-Matt
I think what sdematt meant was in my list I had hymns in an overly fair meta (for the top 8). TES and maybe Miracles would benefit from the hymns but I could probably pack more edicts if I did trim them.
No, short of getting Wasted out, you gave me literally the worst start. Dead guy and them with an active Deathrite is a pretty piss-poor place to be. You could replace Treasure Cruise with anything from Abbey Gargoyle to Zzzyxas's Abyss in that scenario and still be about as equally fucked.
Anyway, the mere existence of Treasure Cruise doesn't stop Hymn to Tourach from being a two-for-one. It's not like they wouldn't cast the Treasure Cruise if Hymn to Tourach didn't land. Hymn to Tourach is a two-for-one. That is the beginning and the end of it and the simple existence of Treasure Cruise (which is < 3x in the decks that choose to run it except for UR Delver) doesn't invalidate that nor any of the other X-for-ones in the deck. Hymn to Tourach is often cut for UR Delver and Miracles and isn't exactly an all-star against "fair decks", but that has always been true and has very little to do with Treasure Cruise. If you choose to cut it, cut it because of the decks that are or aren't being run.
None of them are the way to go. Thoughtseize is an amazing card and an automatic four-of. So is Dark Confidant. But is Confidant so good that you need to try and force Blood Scrivener as Confidant 5-8? Just because something is comparable doesn't mean it's worth inclusion. Thoughtseize is a one-of-a-kind animal. If Hymn's not good enough, then it's not good enough. But it's not worth it to try and force some lame imitation.
Edit: In other news, what does everyone think about a fourth Bloodbraid Elf? I'm still playing around with that final slot.
Last edited by iamajellydonut; 10-13-2014 at 11:45 AM.
First, I also didn't give them an active deathrite, I just said Dude (could be Mom, Grim, Delver, DRS, any T1 guy; I was just filling in their turn without a cantrip to show that they could quickly and easily get a Cruise active without having double-triple cantrips.)
Second, You must live in christmas land. Having your T1 DRS killed while sick (especially on the draw) is the most common thing to happen against literally any fair deck. That is a *normal* start. Nobody good lets you keep a DRS unless they're about to hose you somehow. You then hymned (I gave you the benefit of having double-black); your hymn powered their cruise.
Your post says:
"My DRS gets killed? Well I mean, literally anything they play if they manage to kill my T1 DRS wins the game right there!"
You can't seriously believe the rubbish you spout. I gave you an accurate on-the-draw description of an average game where you used hymn (as it's typically better T2 than T3 anyway), with no wastes, no manascrew, no opponent ramp, no counterspells, the opponent playing only 1 fetch, 1 cantrip, 1 dude. If you think that's christmas land for the opponent then you're a garbage and need to go play modern.
IoK is stellar. Matt AND I (and many other Junk players) use it to subsidize the 4th Ts and often act as TS 4-6. TS is notoriously bad if you hit three of them and even two can be pretty painful. It's often just fine to start with a TS and follow with an IoK (or vice versa.) IoK does miss some things in Miracles, Omni-tell, Sneak-Show, and maybe a couple other decks; but in general it hits everything without a drawback and is good enough T1/T2 against combo that it's better than Hymn IMO. Hymn was only good because it pissed on fair decks. It can no longer reliably do that. IoK is good because it's not only reliable (unlike hymn) but it neuters combo before their critical turn. Hymn means you have to survive to cast it; which can be a bigger deal than it sounds; while slowing your tempo (since you could be landing a threat next to your IoK, but not often next to your hymn.)
Junk is not Jund. You get hatebears. We don't. If you cast Inquisition of Kozilek against Storm as Junk, you buy time to land a Gaddock Teeg or a Thalia or a Revoker (or Meddling Mage in Matt's case). If you cast Inquisition of Kozilek against Storm as Jund, you had better hope to God it's post-board and you have a Null Rod or some shit.
I'm not saying either of us are wrong, but I'm going to do a few hours of testing today with Jund to see what that slot should be, or at least could be. Your assessment isn't wrong - Jund doesn't have hatebears to back up discard, so perhaps you might NEED the discard to be a 2-for-1. The real question is: should Hymn be in the main, or switched to the anti-combo discard in the board? Testing will tell. I'll test against specific combo (Omni/SnT), density combo (ANT/TES), midrange (no TC), and Delver (TC).
-Matt
I am still on the hymn bandwagon. It may have gotten a little worse with the printings of these new cards, but I usually sided out hymns against the decks that play more than 1 of these delve cards anyway.
I am not saying anyone is wrong either, but i feel as though hymn works better with the clock that we present. Of course it depends on what decks you face, but nothing quite does what hymn does. I have tested Inquisition in the past and felt as though it was lackluster and in many cases i just wanted it to be hymn instead.
Funny enough, there was a list that played 4 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseize, and 1 Inquisition at an SCG I went to a while back. Very curious numbers, but the player was Vidianta Wijaya, and he is pretty dang good so I trusted his judgement.
Also, I do like 4 bloodbraids right now. She gets better postboard because of a more focused plan and more relevant cards, and i almost never want to side her out (if need be I just trim 1 or 2 like against fast combo).
Grah! I hate this final slot. I'm trying to brew in time for Worcester and freaking out. I wish I could just leave it at fifty nine cards and have all my problems solved. There's just no "final card" that I'm happy with.
Anyway, I played out a few games and talked about it a lot with a friend, and I already think the fourth Bloodbraid isn't worth the slot. Reason being that, as sexy as she is, it's 4cc and random. I'd rather have something hard and dependable. So far the choices that I've considered in no particular order...
White splash
Crippling Fatigue
Diabolic Edict
Garruk Relentless
Bloodbraid Elf
Assault/Battery (you can cast the elephant off bloodbraid)
Horizon Canopy
@iamajellydonut
Go with a singleton Sensei's Divining Top. It'll never kill you and when you get it up with Dark Confidant it is amazing. When you draw into it and have it in mid-game with Bloodbraid Elf in hand it can be amazing, particularly with fetches.
Isn't that basically just suggesting I put in a third Sylvan Library?
No, the third Sylvan Library is redundant. The Sensei's Divining Top gives you capabilities that the Sylvan Library does not, particularly with fetches and instants. Being able to float a bolt or decay on top of your library can get you through a lot. Also you can draw the top and play it and spin it and draw with it for 2 mana during your main phase. It's not quite a Ponder but it can be close in mid-game.
Give us a look at your list right now, in a vacuum I can't offer any advice.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
23 Land
1*Forest
2*Swamp
3*Badlands
3*Bayou
2*Bloodstained Mire
3*Marsh Flats
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Wooded Foothills
15 Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Tombstalker
3*Tarmogoyf
3*Bloodbraid Elf
4*Deathrite Shaman
22 Other Spells
2*Hymn to Tourach
4*Liliana of the Veil
4*Thoughtseize
4*Lightning Bolt
2*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
1*Golgari Charm
1*Maelstrom Pulse
1*TBD
Sideboard
1*Mindbreak Trap (might end up becoming Duress if only because of Burn)
1*Chains of Mephistopheles
1*Duress
2*Surgical Extraction
1*Toxic Deluge
1*Ancient Grudge
1*Pyroblast
1*Red Elemental Blast
1*Pernicious Deed
1*Grafdigger's Cage
1*Nihil Spellbomb
1*Null Rod
1*Pithing Needle
1*Winter Orb/Blood Moon (fuck Miracles or fuck BUG and 43Lands)
From memory. I think it's all there.
4th Abrupt Decay, 3rd Hymn to Tourach, those are the obvious choices.
Pernicious Deed, Darkblast (Elves, D&T, UR Delver, Goyf wars), 2nd Golgari Charm, making the removal suite really hard to manage for the tribal or threat-lite opponent.
Sensei's Divining Top, Abundance, the meta is much more consistent now than it has been with all the blue, Elves, D&T and company, you need more consistency. Sylvan Library + Abundance buries people in the mid-game and Golgari Charm is about the only main list way to ditch Abundance after it lands these days. SDT is a top 5 card in the meta and it provides synergy with Dark Confidant and Bloodbraid Elf.
The other thing is that you're only playing 3 Goyfs. I understand why you're doing that but Goyf is still the second best card in your list after DRS and just putting #4 back in is probably better than any of the above.
Wow, Abundance is a weird but awesome card. Also more enchantments to pump goyf in case they eat a counterspell. I notcied Finchler had a seal of primordium in his sideboard in the last scg and thought that was cool.
How does abundance work with library?
I'm thinking that you could possibly put three permanents into play on each draw step if you state then correctly?
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