GP NJ, dang, I wish you luck. Should be an amazing event either way. Wish I could attend. GP Orlando was cool though. Scrubbed out after 4 rounds though. I should quit smoking since its caused me a game there and at the last open I attended.Originally Posted by Cliq
Primary deck: Mud
Secondary deck: Burn
Building: Nic Fit
"Abzan" Fit is also one of my considerations for New Jersey so I have been testing it quite a lot. I am still very cautious of bringing a deck without Brainstorm to this event but so far testing has been going well. The deck no longer resembles Pod or Nic Fit much anymore but I guess that as long as you play Therapy and Explorer in a deck it qualifies as Nic Fit. Here is the list I am considering:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
//SB
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
The deck feels much more like a Rock deck than ever before except that it foregoes Wastelands in favor of basic lands and a powerful scaling GSZ package. The deck utilizes all the mana generated by the numerous mana dorks and the lands provided by Explorer to force a "topdeck mode" game via multiple targeted discard effects. It then proceeds to play superior threats by sinking all its built up mana into either equipments that will cause our mana dorks and utility creatures to become threatening or by powering out a GSZ into Sigarda or Ooze.
I ended up going for Sylvan Libraries instead of Birthing Pod simply because Library isn't a dead card on its own, costs less mana and life to play and activate, and has similar long lasting benefits. Unlike Top, Library is also less mana intensive, and can actually generate card advantage. Library also has strong synergy with Jitte and Batterskull as it converts life gain into additional cards.
All the fat has been trimmed so that the deck is more consistent and smoother to play. No non-green creatures or overcosted cards that don't end the game on their own. Anything carrying at least 1 equipment can end a game swiftly if supported with adequate disruption. Even Thragtusk had to go as he doesn't do anything particularly well aside from surviving a Terminus. I tested against UR Delver and Burn decks a lot since I cut Thragtusk and Finks from my list and the matchup is still extremely favorable with all the discard, the SFM package, DRS, and Ooze.
The sideboard is still being tweaked as Safekeeper is undergoing testing. So far he enables a lock against Miracles in the form of a shrouded Teeg. All you have to do is not attack into Snapcaster and their only out to this situation is Council's Judgment. Safekeeper is also one of the only good GSZ targets aside from Teeg for unfair matchups. As for fair matchups, the only change that takes place is Teeg coming out in favor of the 4th Liliana and some copies of Thoughtseize that become ZP, Duress, Choke, Plague, Needle, and/or Safekeeper.
Is there anything this deck is blatantly missing that would make it better?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Looks like you read my mind in terms of sideboard: Aegis protected by Teeg and Safekeeper is really sweet. On that note however, I suggest finding room for Peacekeeper or something similar for Elves! and SnT decks. Actually, how have matchups been so far?
I'll give it a good look over tomorrow, Qweerios, and give you some thoughts. For what it's worth, I don't disagree with your direction. It's not one that I personally will be adopting (although I share your views on Abzan being a good place to be for the GP per meta analysis), but I'm actually behind you on this one -- which probably surprises you a bit.
More in the morning.
I try to stay away from creatures I cannot tutor unless they have a strong impact on many matchups. This is why I don't think Peacekeeper is reliable.
The Elves matchup is quite good actually.
In:
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Engineered Plague
1 Liliana
Out:
2 Sylvan Library
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Witness
1 Sigarda
1 SoFaI
The deck becomes a control deck where we try to land an early discard spell followed by removal and hate pieces. However, just like any non-blue deck we don't have cards like FoW to ensure we get to T2-3 safely.
Against Miracles I get to side out the Explorer/Therapy package and play the long game.
In:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Choke
1 Liliana
Out:
1 Explorer
1 Ooze
1 Jitte
1 Decay (4 is too many with GSZ for Sage)
4 Cabal Therapy
Ideally I'd like to Choke them and Needle their Top or land Teeg and Safekeeper together. If I manage to Extract a Terminus, things go much smoother as well. I usually get lots of pressure in by fetching SoFaI and fetching an Arbor EoT. If I can extract Entreat, the game is much less stressful as Jace is much easier to handle than a lethal entreat to which I have no answers to. Sylvan Library and Liliana are also massive headaches for any Miracle player to try and handle. The deck has so many angles of disruption and different lock pieces against Miracles that I am confident in the matchup despite very little testing from my part (with this specific list).
My testing against UR Delver and American Delver is promising too. The only changes I have to make for these matchups are to swap out Teeg for the 4th Liliana and some Thoughtseizes for a combination of ZP, Duress, Safekeeper, and/or Spirit of the Labyrinth. G1 generally goes in my favor while G2 can be tough if they get a Delver start followed by artifact destruction and burn reach. This is what I both like and dislike about non-blue decks: they have to concede the first couple of turns to the blue decks and claw their way back into the game.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Fair enough: I understand that point completely. However, I'm surprised you still keep Teeg in for the Elves! matchup, given that despite taking out GSZ and NO, he's relatively useless in that matchup, as nothing can really stop them topdecking the Big Bad Hoof. Not sure how that would affect SBing in that matchup, or whether your experience is similar to mine: just food for thought ^_^.
Stopping Zenith and NO is 100% worth. Elves frequently only has 1 Hoof postboard. Even if they leave in the second copy, that's 2 ways to kill you vs 9/10 (depending on NO count). That's a world of difference. Shutting down NO in particular also stops their reliable turn 3 kill, and shutting off Zenith makes it harder for them to Glimpse off since they can't just grab whatever piece they were missing.
@Qweerios:
Okay, down the line we go....
4 DRS, 1 Vet, 1 Arbor [ramp core]
I still question the inclusion of Dryad Arbor. I mean, you're not running Deed, so that's fine. But, is Zenithing for Arbor better than holding it for a turn and grabbing Explorer or DRS instead? Note: it may be, I just want thoughts on it.
It may be hand dependent. The only times I think I would feel comfortable zenithing for Arbor in this deck is when you lead Bayou->Zenith->t2 black source + Liliana; or if you have a double Zenith hand and you actively want Teeg or Ooze in the matchup. Actually, I guess t1 Arbor also enables Thoughtseize+ Stoneforge on t2, so maybe it's better than it first looks?
4 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI, 1 Skull
Pretty standard 4x SFM core package. Nothing really to comment on here.
1 Visionary, 1 Ooze, 1 Teeg, 1 Rec Sage, 1 E.Wit, 1 Sigarda
The rest of the Zenith package.
Visionary is your standard 'go-to', I take it. Card's basically always good value, so I guess that's fine. The only issue is that it's very low-impact -- lower than Wall of Blossoms, even, although obviously Visionary can actually attack and suit up, which matters. I'm not sure if this is better than another Ooze, though...something a little higher-impact. You can't recur the Visionary, so the ETB trigger matters a little less, and the Visionary is still only replacing itself...it's not actual card advantage, and you're spending a Zenith to get it most likely, which doesn't feel worthwhile to me.
I wonder if Strangleroot Geist might be better than Visionary for this slot, since you're a little more aggressive and it could lead to some blowouts with stranded equipment.
All of the rest of the bullets feel fine to me, although I still like Rhino, especially for a list like this that can suit him up. With DRS and Ooze, you can control opposing Goyfs, and Rhino is usually at least on parity with most average Goyfs even without DRS interference. The space may be an issue here, though.
You technically only really -need- Sigarda to win, but I will caution you that in my experience, Sigarda isn't sufficient anymore by herself due to the presence of Council's Judgment offering a powerful, maindeckable answer to her. I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit more threat density here.
4 Decay
While on that subject, is this better than 3 Decay, 1 Council's Judgment? Nic Fit is a deck that is singularly able to use and abuse Council's Judgment, and it feels strange to not have any at all in a white-based nic fit. I dunno. Judgment has greatly impressed me, and I wouldn't leave him without at least one (I prefer two).
4 Thoughtseize + 4 Therapy
I....meh. If you're going to run Thoughtseize in addition to Therapy, I almost feel like it has to be as a full 8pack. While that's not my preference, you do have Liliana to pitch the extra midgame discard spells to. I would almost rather just run with the Thoughtseizes and cut the Therapies for extra removal + an extra threat or two, but I'm not sure how ideal that is.
I just realized something. Where are your Lingering Souls? You're running Therapy, Liliana, and equipment. That's all begging for Souls. You don't have a ton of sac fodder for Therapy flashback right now...basically just extra Stoneforges, Visionary, Explorer, RecSage, and Witness. Maybe Arbor? I would say either trim down Therapies to maybe a 2-of (add in a pair of Council's Judgments? or 1 Judgment 1 threat?) or else shave elsewhere for Souls. Hmm.
4 Zenith, obv
2 Sylvan Lib
Hm. Why 2 Library over 1 Lib 1 Top? Library is pretty dead in multiples, and you still have all of the traditionally Nic Fit deck manipulation to get multiple Top spins per turn. I'm far from disagreeing with Sylvan's presence (hell, I've thought about running it as a 1-of even alongside Deed, and you don't have that headache here).
3 Liliana
Makes sense here. Again, I think I would like her better with Souls, but she's far from bad in this list. You have plenty of pitch fodder for her to play around your hand, and she does what you need her to do.
Manabase
Is the pair of Marsh Flats better than a pair of Wastelands would be for this deck?
Sideboard
You have Zealous Persecution too? Jeez. Seriously, Souls tho.
I'm not sure the pair of Duress is needed. You already have 8+(4)+3 discard avenues maindeck, and I see the 4th Liliana is also hanging out in your sideboard. I don't think you need 18 discard spells in your deck. If you're dead set on having the extra discard, I think I would make it a pair of Hymn to Tourachs over a pair of Duresses. Your manabase is already base-black for fast Lilianas.
Surgical is a fine role-player for what it does. I think the card would be strengthened overall by swapping Marsh -> Wasteland, as well.
1 ET is fine, since it's just a 2nd copy of your bullets. I actually have come to believe that more than 2 copies of ET is wrong in [decks]. The lone exception would be something like a bomberman combo deck or painter or something. If we're talking tutor board, 1-2 is correct imo.
Needle -- over Revoker? Explain. Do you want both, perhaps? They hate on slightly different things, but I think that they're both effects you want access to.
Canonist, Spirit of the Lab, Aegis -- Aegis is the only one I don't like here. I don't like Ivory Masks that can just be burned away. Sure, if you have Safekeeper out -- but then that turns every burn spell the opponent has into a Sinkhole, which is pretty awful. That also requires you to have both pieces, which seems like you're stretching. I would rather run a singleton Leyline of Sanctity over Aegis -- it's not like you can't just cast the Leyline, and it's susceptible to a heck of a lot less removal.
Choke's fine, Plague is fine, Liliana is fine...
Safekeeper is a card that I've dallied with a couple of times. I do like the guy, he's just kind of hard to find the space for. The problem with Safekeeper is that you need extra lands laying about to actually use him, and/or you need some kind of land-base recursion package. You don't have either here, so I'm not sure how he's going to work out for you. The card is powerful...his effect is definitely good. It's just dangerous in this deck, I feel, because it could easily be turned against you.
If I had to make room for the Souls, I would recommend these cuts:
1 Visionary
1 RecSage
1 Sylvan Library
+3 Souls
Additionally, I would go -1 Decay, +1 Council's Judgment.
While I like the idea of Strangleroot, I think that Souls is much more important and also invalidates Geist's purpose to a degree. Visionary is still a weak link, so that comes out. Sylvan is a source of card advantage and quality, but drawing a Lingering Souls will often generate as much CA as a Library would, and, again, I don't like Library as a 2-of. RecSage is the most painful cut (and I would try to find room for her in the sideboard, for sure), but I strongly believe that 3 Souls is the correct number, and cutting a 3-drop for a 3-drop is probably the best option. There's an argument to be made for cutting Witness over Sage, but I think that Witness is a little more important since she can get back destroyed equipment, discarded/countered Lilianas, sideboard hate, etc.
I'm going to split my post into two chunks -- here's the one dedicated to Qweerios's list. I'll now begin one for my list(s), and meta predictions for Eternal Weekend and GPNJ (I will be attending both).
Okay. First of all, meta predictions.
Blue decks are lost in a Treasure Cruise arms race. UWR Delver is likely the best Cruise deck, with BUG Delver pulling up a close second. Shardless's identity is unclear at this point, but I believe it to still be a deck. Miracles is still real, and is likely the best Dig Through Time deck which is not combo-based. Note that RIP/Helm Miracles may make a resurgence depending on how many people want to play Dig vs how many people want to stop others from Delving (including themselves).
RUG Delver is quietly still the best Delver deck through all of it. Mongoose will still Mongoose people. People are jumping aboard the Burn and UR Delver trains en masse, which leaves RUG in an even better position as the premier Tarmogoyf deck, especially lists which opt out of trying to go Cruising and therefore can represent beefy Goyfs and Geese. Stifle is also incredibly well positioned, as people shift further onto fetchland oriented manabases to try to capitalize on lotus petals for Delving. This leaves manabases very vulnerable to attack via Stifle/Waste.
As noted, Burn and UR Delver will be everywhere. Both decks are cheap and traditionally reasonably-well performing for their cost of buy-in. UR Delver is hyped right now, with the additions of Taylorswiftspear and Cruise. Furthermore, with the amount of BUG in the field right now, both of these decks are well-positioned.
Combo is secretly the best archetype in the field. The blue decks' guard is currently down, and most blue decks are skimping on their combo answers. Dig Through Time powered OmniTell and Sneak/Show are both real, but DTT-powered High Tide is probably the realest delve-powered combo deck. DTT all but ensures that they don't run out of gas, it also lets them delve away garbage to keep their Time Spirals from periodically blowing up in their face.
The glass cannon combo decks (as well as ANT and TES) are arguably the best of the best, as sickening as it is to say. Why bother getting tangled in the Treasure Cruise morass, when you can just make them dead? Esperblade / Deathblade is basically a stagnant archetype at this point, and was the premier predator of fast combo decks. Miracles has become decadent and depends heavily on its Countertop to effectively fight combo, which fast combo can get under. The gamble is the amount of RUG and BUG Delver that will be present. If they dodge the Delver decks, I expect to see these decks perform well.
Sneak/Show and Elves will be around, as always, but I don't expect either of these decks to perform well. Elves's power has waned considerably as people have both begun sideboarding for it and have actually learned how to interact with the deck (what to kill, when, in particular). Sneak just isn't well positioned right now. It'll always have those "toddler with a rocket launcher" hands, but when forced to fight a "fair" game of magic, I expect it to suffer.
Reanimator, Dredge, and Loam strategies are going to have a bad time as the format revolves increasingly around Delve and people prepare to deal with the menace. Additionally, Reanimator has become much harder to buy into with the current price point of Underground Sea, Show and Tell, and Griselbrand. Enjoy it while it lasts, because next year, Reanimator is going to be a budget deck again. Thanks WotC for making Griselbrand a GP promo right after Entomb was a heavily-produced judge foil ON TOP of being in Graveborn.
Jund's prey is gone, so it'll fall back into the depths from which it came.
----------
tl;dr:
upswing:
RUG Delver, fast combo (TES, ANT, Belcher, etc)
Burn, UR Delver
High Tide
holding position:
Mirakuru
BUG/UWR Delver
u/x.dec (stoneblade holdouts, shardless [both types], etc)
downturn:
Sneak, Elves
graveyard strategies
Jund
A disclaimer:
I don't expect people to realize exactly how good fast combo is right now until AFTER the grand prix. I'm content playing Nic Fit in both Eternal Weekend and GP NJ -- but after NJ is over with, I'll probably be scared to touch the deck for a while. Fair warning.
So, if we're expecting a lot of Burn, UR Delver and RUG Delver alongside the stalwarts of Miracles, BUG Delver, UWR Delver, and random blue decks, white-based Nic Fit seems like the place to be. This is primarily because of the first two of that number. BUG decks all struggle with Burn and UR Delver, no matter what the actual deck is that is being played in those colors, including BUG Nic Fit.
For reference, here's my updated BUG/Sultai list:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
2 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Frost Titan
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
1 Bribery
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
Garruk Relentless has wildly overperformed in this deck. Rune-Scarred joins the club as an extra "big threat," because the deck struggled with closing more than just about anything else.
I have spent a lot of time examining and testing this list, and have concluded that this is NOT a Treasure Cruise (or Dig Through Time) deck.
There are two major reasons for this. The first is that it is very hard to find the space without cutting into some numbers somewhere. Some creatures could probably be shaved, true, but then you make Diabolic Intent and Garruk Relentless worse, as well as Recurring Nightmare and Mimeoplasm.
The second is that we can't really Delve by the nature of Nic Fit. We simply don't put many cards in the graveyard until mid to late game. Therapies exile themselves. Creatures get Swordsed. Tops don't die. Zeniths shuffle themselves back in. We typically only play 6 fetches. Etc. That all but ensures that Cruise/Dig are going to be expensive to cast, even on the first one, to the point where it's basically a blue Harmonize, which I don't feel is good enough. I would rather play Jace at that point.
Obviously you're welcome to (encouraged to) disagree with me. But, this is how I have it set up and how I like running it. I won't say it's necessarily the best BUG Nic Fit (non-gimmick) list, but I would not have any qualms about playing this list in a major event right now OTHER THAN the massive spike in UR Delver and Burn.
--------------------
No, what I would much rather be doing is Baneslayering people.
This is where I'm at right now, a week from Eternal Weekend:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Eternal Witness
2 Spike Feeder
2 Siege Rhino
1 Spike Weaver
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Council's Judgment
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Abzan Charm
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Haunting Echoes
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Krosan Grip
I actually think that this deck is shockingly well positioned right now. The trick is going to be getting the intricacies narrowed down and hammered out.
So, where we left this project, I was feeling very dejected that I was unable to keep up with the blue decks. Since that event, however, the format has shifted to a decidedly aggro tack, with the upswing in Delver of various stripes as categorized above. I also took a step back and re-examined my matchups, and concluded that the fact that both of the blue decks that I lost to were straight UW Blade had something to with it, as UW Blade is quite possibly the single best blue deck to play against Nic Fit -- better than Miracles or Shardless, for sure. UW Blade is highly consistent, with a large amount of filtering in addition to multiple Council's Judgments + a full compliment of Snapcasters alongside multiple Counterspell, planeswalkers, and so forth.
That being said, I have made some changes.
-) Ooze
I still hate this card, but I can acknowledge that it probably has a place here. This list is a 4x Zenith deck, and Ooze is a powerful tool when it comes down in some matchups. Additionally, it has strong synergy with Thune.
-) Teeg
He's back in the maindeck, giving me a game one out to combo. The Zeniths are the only cards maindeck that he shuts down, with the Haunting Echoes in the side as the lone postboard contender. He's not -great- in the meta right now, but he does shut down Cruise and Dig at least.
-) 2 Rhino
I'm pretty sure that 2 is the correct number for this guy. I tried him at 1, and wanted more. I tried him at 3, and wanted less. Tada.
-) 2 Abzan Charm
This card is the tits. It's high-quality removal, Night's Whisper, a counterspell protecting the combo, and a combat trick all rolled into one efficient package. The addition of the Abzan Charms also gives me access to 6 effective spot removal spells g1, which is pretty awesome in a world where people are moving away from threats in favor of car advantage.
-) Sideboard
I removed the extra two Abrupt Decays in favor of the Carpet of Flowers because I don't think I need 8 spot removal with the addition of Abzan Charm. Additionally, as noted previously, I'm expecting a lot of Stifle/Waste based Delver, and having the extra mana ramp in those matchups is likely important because those decks basically cannot beat Rhino/Thune/Baneslayer.
Nihil Spellbombs are on a testrun right now. The card is a favorite of mine in Vintage, where it puts in good work against opposing blue mirrors, helping keep YawgWill and Snapcaster under control while generating value. It's also a good hedge for against any random graveyard decks, although 2 Nihil / 1 Ooze / 4 Zenith still isn't a ton and likely still won't make those matchups even %wise.
The Mindcensor / Canonist package has proven itself time and time again, and continues to do what needs to be done.
-----) Things I'm not happy with yet:
-) The Marsh Flats
This was originally the Gavony Township, which proved awkward both to use (sometimes dead, sometimes game-winning) and straining on the manabase (I lost a couple of games because it was colorless). I'm not sure if there's another utility land I want in this slot, or if I make it another dual, or what exactly I do with it. I'm not thrilled with it being a 7th fetch, though.
-) 3 Tops
I'm actually starting to strongly consider changing to 2 Top 1 Sylvan Library.
Yes, it sometimes gets blown up...but it's technically a more powerful card than Top is in a lot of situations, and the two do play fairly nice together. I'm also annoyed at drowning in Tops every damn game.
-) sideboard Krosan Grips, Haunting Echoes
I'm not sure how concerned I REALLY am with Miracles at the moment. Rhino is a massive upgrade from Rector for g1 vs Miracles, and Abzan Charm isn't exactly dead, either.
I'll probably keep 1 Grip as a mise (3rd Decay for the matchup, essentially), but that would leave me with a tantalizing 2 free spots that could be something a bit more....diverse.
--------
So that's where I'm at for the moment. Thoughts, criticisms, etc all welcome as always. I top 32'd Eternal Weekend / Legacy last year after a heartbreaking loss to Shardless on a virtual win-and-in, and I'm hungry for a top 8 this year.
Thanks for quoting him so I would have to read that. Yeah Ancestral is terrible, at least with Brainstorm you get to put the bad cards back and shuffle them away.
I guess I should elaborate a bit more, since it seems as though you'd be happy running Brainstorm or Recall or Treasure Cruise in any deck that runs Islands.
Thanks for quoting him so I would have to read that. Yeah Ancestral is terrible, at least with Brainstorm you get to put the bad cards back and shuffle them away.
Recall and, by extension, Brainstorm and Treasure Cruise, are good when you need immediate advantage over an opponent as opposed to inevitable advantage. As a control deck Nic Fit does not need immediate advantage but inevitable advantage, hence my comparison to LoA.
Now you may be thinking why does Miracles run Brainstorm since it is a control deck? Because it is an instant that enables Miracles at the end of the opponent's turn. No doubt Brainstorm is a good card, and that Recall would be an auto 4 of in its stead were it legal in Legacy. But there is a reason that Miracles hasnt hopped aboard the Cruise hype train, despite being able to drag the game long enough to cast it.
TL; DR: Recall, Cruise, and Brainstorm are terrible in pure control shells unless they provide additional utility in addition to immediate card advantage.
You missed 4 x GSZ right ?
Shall I suggest playing stain the mind instead of usual Cranial Extraction or Memoricide ?
Nope, no Zeniths in the blue list. No space, also a ton of non-green creatures that can't be fetched anyway makes it awkward. Basically your "zenith" in that deck is Garruk Relentless. He's easy to flip, and then he goes Survivaling from there. Otherwise, just natural card advantage from Jace/Thief/Top/Future Sight/etc. I originally had a pair of Zeniths in the deck and they were godawful every game.
Stain is....weird. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I think it would be fine in something like Scapewish where you have a bunch of random ramp dorks laying around, but the problem then is that Slaughter Games is just better. I think that in a combo matchup where you want Stain, you'd rather be swinging with whatever dudes you have to apply pressure, vs tapping them to convoke when you could just running a cheaper cmc option instead.
Queerios- our lists appear to be converging so i'm very curious how your testing goes and look forward to hearing how its going. Im wondering how soft the list is to show and tell, reanimator seems like its winable between the hand disruption and the grave hate but omnitell, sneak and show, and turbo eldrazi seem like they'd be horrible if you get around to testing them id like to hear how your list fairs.
Speaking of Scape, here is the brand new list, I'll be featuring @ my LGS:
Temur Kut Fit by Ralf
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Steam vents
1 Stomping ground
4 Taiga
3 Tropical island
3 Volcanic island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Valakut
4 Veteran explorer
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fell
1 Thragtsuk
2 Nevinyral's disk
4 Brainstorm
4 Perilous research
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic command
4 Pyroclasm
2 Green Sun Zenith
2 Scapeshift
Sideboard
3 REB
2 Wipe away
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Ravenous trap
1 Flusterstorm
1 Bribery
1 Pithing needle
1 Garruk relentless
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Surgical extraction
Thank you for your feedback on the deck. You have definitely confirmed some of my doubts. I will test accordingly.
@Uncletiggy,
SnT and OmniShow decks are good matchups. I have won a fair share of G1s against them and G2 is even better. The big problem with those matchups however is that we concede to a T0 Leyline of Sanctity. There is simply no non-blue alternatives and packing cards to remove it is futile as our chances of drawing them are low and our opponents will probably have combo'ed off by the time we land our first discard spell.
As for Reanimator, again, non-blue decks don't have many options against fast combo decks with counter backup. We have plenty of GY hate and disruption but we have to rely on them to have a slow beginning in order to have a chance. There is simply not many options against those decks unless you dedicate entire portions of your sideboard for very specific matchups (Leyline of the Void, Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Mindbreak Trap, Angel of Despair...)
Against 12-Post discard has more weight and we actually get time to assemble a strong board and clock our opponent. We cannot beat their topdecking abilities but we can needle their Tops, Ugin, Maps, and discard their Titans and Eldrazies while we build up a Batterskull and hopefully kill them in time.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Has anyone given any thought to Mystical Teachings in BUG lists, especially those featuring Notion Thief, Venser, Clique, Abrupt Decay, etc? It seems really strong since we have access to so much mana and lets us play a lot of stuff on our opponent's turn.
went 5-3 (50th) at the Worchester open with scapewish yesterday, lost to 2 reanimator players and a youngpyro rug delver deck
Jake esper deathblade 2-0
Will reanimator 0-2
James BUG delver 2-1
Alex YP-RUG delver 1-2
Charlie miracles 2-0
Zac Goblin stompy 2-1
Sam Elves 2-0
Conner Reanimator 0-2
despite the reanimator match-up being almost unbeatable every game against them today was super close, slaughtergames and vexing shusher makes the MU much easier to deal with after they resolve a threat.
My RUG match was also very close, with g3 ending with both of us at 1 life, but he had the stifle for my huntmaster flip
Overall this was a great tournament, I didnt get to test much prior so I was worried about treasure cruise, but it wasn't too problematic every time it resolved
Had I known how much reanimator was in the room, I would have played a Junk list, however i'm still convinced scapewish is the best iteration of nic fit in the overall meta
the list:
Maindeck (61)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Senseis Divining top
2 Slaughter Games
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Suns Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Bayou
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Slaughter Games
1 Innocent Blood
1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Massacre
How important were the Slaughter Games, and did you miss Eternal Witness?
Also, did you ever wish for the Deluge?
slaughtergames have always been good for me when I draw it, It saved me from dying against elves g1 and stopped a t3 jace against miracles(threw a snap infront of veteran)
I may be biased because I've never drawn them when it hasnt been useful
I think this was the first tournament I actually wished for toxic, I always consider putting in damnation over it to deal with goyfs and other big creatures, but the one mana difference makes the life worth it, especially with shusher in play
There was never a time this week I wished I could GSZ for ewit, most decks play DRS so getting things out of the yard right now is harder than ever, and wishes are exiled if they resolve so the only things to get back are creatures you could GSZ for therapies that are not worth it late game, deeds, and countered wishes. The deeds are nice but spending 6-7 mana to just get a deed in play that turn wont do it, better to search with top&searches for another deed of win con, and with shusher you just have to be more conservative with your "win the game" spells
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