Repeal is not tutorable. You can tutor for Ulamog and cast him next turn to kill a Delver and stay alive or just have him in hand and cast him to kill one Delver but with Kozilek you cast him, draw 4 cards and then get ranched in the air and die potentially.Originally Posted by 203995014
Sometimes you just need to kill a flyer, it's definitely less of a concern than Delver.
If you can cast the Ulamog it's probably already irrelevant, but I have needled Karakas vs Miracles before because getting locked out with Venser & Karakas is a real thing. You should be afraid of that almost more than the early Entreat. If you're not, then you are either playing vs bad miracles pilots or bad miracles decks.
Games vs Miracles can and do go long and when JTMS games go long they usually have CB + Top + Fow and you may have nothing, it's another out. Drawing 4 cards you may never get to resolve seems highly irrelevant vs a JTMS ticking up to ultimate.
Again, if you got Liliana at 6 or 7 and it's going to cack off half your lands, drawing 4 is OK but not great, they can ultimate you and play a 2nd Liliana and then make you sac your Kozilek. You can typically beat ultimate from Pox but not from BUG delver. I would say it's probably a push here between Kozilek and Ulamog.
Not mainboard, I also stopped playing K-grip. It comes up though. Repeal works better here for sure.
FoW is generally bad vs Blood moon & REB decks, but sometimes you gotta do it because t1 Bloodmoon is very hard to beat. I know how you can play through a blood moon w/ Forest/Vesuva/Map, but having the Ulamog to cack off their Bridge afterwards is gravy. Sometimes they get 2x or 3x moon effects also, so being able to cack Bridge becomes even more relevant otherwise you can never repeal through their red blasts and you just lose to Jaya.
3 Cloudposts + Eye + Candle casts Emrakul... not sure what Kozilek does better than Emrakul. Nothing is the answer.
[/QUOTE]
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No, I meant Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, not Ulamog. That doesn't mean that I gun for Kozilek over Emrakul because I'm not that stupid, but in terms of preference, Kozilek has always been my favorite out of any of the three legends.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
[QUOTE=Zotmaster;840801]
I learned that the number of Wastelands is somewhat on the decline. I couldn't be happier.
I wouldn't count on it. Delver, making up almost half of all legacy decks most often will run wastelands. Black, D&T, even the goblins I'm finding on cockatrice are now running it.
3 Candle
3 Map
1 Emrakul
1 Koz
1 Ula
4 Titan
4 Brain
3 Vapor
4 Crop
4 Repeal
4 FOW
3 Stifle
1 Cavern
4 cloud
4 Glimmer
2 vesuva
1 Eye
1 glacial
2 island
1 karakas
1 tabernacle
4 tropical
4 fetch
Why so many bounce spells? 4x repeal 3x chain of vapors? Are you just using bounce to gain back tempo?
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Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Essentially. Plus pitch.
I absolutely agree with Sauce, Ulamog is ALWAYS better than Kozilek. When you reach Eldrazi mana, you're close to end the game usually, and that's when you need a backbreaking card that will prevent your opponent to win before you're able to summon Emrakul. Ulamog does the job pretty well, while Kozilek will fill your hand with a bunch of marginal spells you probably wont be able to cast in the same turn,. Also, an opposing Karakas makes Kozilek really laughable, but not many people have dared to bounce Ulamog so lightly. Ulamog simply ignores the wall of counterspells your opponent may have, almost always taking with him the most problematic threat, so it's more of immediate impact over the course of the game.
Open to suggestions though.
Been playing this locally and it is not suited for my local meta. My problems with this deck are Burn, BUG Delver and 2-3 Mindcensor Death and taxes.
Burn unless you get an early show and tell they usually win. Price is usually GG with so many non basics unless you can rotate for Chasm or counter it. Chasm doesn't help as much as you would think because it hurts your mana development and the cumulative upkeep. The burn player stockpile burn for when you let Chasm drop. If I can't beat burn considering switching decks like the other two 10 post players in my local shop have changed to Infect and Sneak and show. Leyline of Sanctity are not the answer because mulliganing for leyline is aweful and you can't cast them. I expect alot of Burn at GP NJ because it is so cheap to build.
BUG Delver is just a pain all around with decent clock, discard and wastelands. Not sure how to fix this one sometimes they just have the blow out hymm wasteland and there isn't much you can do.
Local Death and taxes players are all running 2-3 Mindcensor and 1-2 Spirit which nerfs your Prime Time, Maps and Treasure Cruises. They jam a Mindcensor in response to your Titan and if they got the swords or mirran crusader to deal with your Titan its GG. This might just be my local meta but it is a problem.
I brrn running the 3 Eldrazi 4 Show and Tell to try and beat Burn. Considering Wurmcoil Engine since Rock Lee had a list with 4 Show and Tell and Wurmcoil's but that is hard to fit with Treasure Cruise.
Artifact (8)
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Blue (15)
4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
4 Treasure Cruise
Colorless (3)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
Green (8)
3 Crop Rotation
1 Moment's Peace
4 Primeval Titan
Lands (26)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Khalni Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva
Sideboard (15)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moment's Peace
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Swan Song
Considering cutting Khalni Garden for a second Forest but its good versus Liliana or to just make a blocker.
@winglerw28
Not sure on blue white, Deck really wants Green for Crop Rotation and Prime Time to get a cloudpost and eye to win the game.
@Zotmaster
Congrats and thanks for the report. Interesting List. How you been liking no Sensei's Top? I find Sensei's Top to really help your draws. How is only 2 Show and Tell? I feel the only way you win versus burn is off a turn 3 or 4 Show and Tell and am considering going to 4. Is trickbind really that much better then Stifle? Being uncounterable is great and all but do you get wastelanded before you have 2 mana up for trickbind where you could have had 1 for stifle?
@Sauce @Davek
I agree you need Ulamog to kill problem permanents. Big one I keep running into in my local meta is Ulamog kills Ensnaring Bridge against Painter where Repeal just eats Red Blast.
You've got so much draw power there I don't see why Lilliana is a problem. By the time you're casting titan you should be ready to throw it away on the next turn anyway. For burn, throw 4 leylines into the sideboard and mull till you get one. Its probably an insta-win. Slam it on the table and move on to a serious match.
I haven't missed Top anywhere near as much as I thought I would. Granted, I haven't played any Storm decks since I ditched the Tops, and that's usually where Top is at its best: hiding a key counterspell or Crop Rotation until it's needed.
I'm not sure about only running 2 Show and Tell. I'm going over my writeup again and a lot of my success has come as an immediate consequence of resolving one. In a way, it's like Candelabra in that it gives the deck another gear that it otherwise doesn't have. No, Show and Tell isn't - and shouldn't be - the deck's Plan A, but a resolved one - or even a cleverly played one that baits out a counterspell - can very much win you the game more or less on the spot. I've been thinking about it and I may try bringing in at least one more.How is only 2 Show and Tell? I feel the only way you win versus burn is off a turn 3 or 4 Show and Tell and am considering going to 4.
Trickbind is everything I hoped it would be and more. In this deck, it is way better than Stifle could ever be. It is basically my Pithing Needle replacement. I don't need to be proactive with it. I can wait for something to bother me or wait for my opponent to go for a perfect Brainstorm and then decide if I want to let him have it. We need our spells to have impact: they need to resolve. Short of Chalice on two (in which case, you're an idiot) or a blind Counterbalance flip of the same, Trickbind can't be countered. I don't think there is a single deck in Legacy where Trickbind doesn't have something it can hit game 1: at worst, it's suboptimal (at which point you sideboard it out Game 2...since that's what your sideboard is for!) and at best, it blows the opponent out. It turns the Storm strategy into something other than "Go to Game 2". If a Sneak and Show player doesn't hold priority and activate Sneak multiple times, it Time Walks them. It stops Elf shenanigans. I'm sure you can think of other uses.Is trickbind really that much better then Stifle?
This strikes me more as a play mistake on your part. If you're on the draw, especially against an unknown opponent, Turn 1 Cloudpost is a terrible play, since they can Waste your tapped Cloudpost while still maintaining pressure with a Delver or whatever. If Turn 1 Cloudpost is the only play you had, it's a hand you should have sent back.Being uncounterable is great and all but do you get wastelanded before you have 2 mana up for trickbind where you could have had 1 for stifle?
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Deck didn't perform well for me today, but I was definitely happy with the return of Ulamog. His cast trigger and his indestructibility didn't matter - I always had bounce or the board state was already favorable - but just by having him in the deck, the threat density of the deck literally increased by almost 20% as I went from six threats to seven.
I went 5-3 at Worcester, with my only 3 loses all coming from Reanimator, 4 of the 6 game loses were turn 1 griselbrand with force AND pithing needle on karakas. (The only 3 reanimator decks in the top 50, all of which top 16'd) I think the build I ran that day is perfectly fine with 4 surgicals in it.
Tested out a small white splash with tundra and stp, dabbled with elesh norn/meddling mage. I got 3rd place this week at my Tuesday event, but it felt difficult to make things happen. However, one realization did occur, and that is that Snapcaster mage is bonkers when you run loads of bounce spells, one of them being chain of vapor. The lines of play this guy offers is off the charts, especially with candelabra. Not to mention you can still Delve with a flashback Treasure Cruise.
New Build I'm testing:
// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [TSP] Vesuva
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
I've kind of come to the same conclusion with my UW list I posted earlier. It was a fun experiment, but it is missing... something. I think I'm going to be working on a UG list I could potentially be playing at NJ, so UW will be my pet project on the backburner until after that. One card that is interesting that was suggested to me for that list was Decree of Justice.
Snapcaster Mage is genius, and I really like the exclusion of Expedition Map. I've always felt very wishy-washy about the card and always find it to be underwhelming. The third Candelabra of Tawnos hurts my wallet, but I think it makes a lot of sense in this list.
One thing I don't like is the high amount of Surgical Extractions in the board. Are you sure this isn't an overcompensation for your losses? I feel as though the reanimator matchup shouldn't be so horrible that we need that much. I could see one or two, but maybe I just haven't played against the deck enough.
3 losses to Reanimator prevented me from Top 8'ing, and my loss that prevented me from getting 1st yesterday? Yeah that was Reanimator too.
Snapcaster Mage is genius, and I really like the exclusion of Expedition Map. I've always felt very wishy-washy about the card and always find it to be underwhelming. The third Candelabra of Tawnos hurts my wallet, but I think it makes a lot of sense in this list.
My mind kept getting blown about how amazing snapcaster was. I did some positively staggering plays with chain of vapor, and equally incredible cantripping and fog'ing with repeal. Cast snap target repeal, block attacker, repeal snapcaster. Over and over.
Fair enough. On the topic of difficult matchups (well, for me, at least), how do you feel about the Omni-Show matchup?
Its a nightmare. Tim trolls me hard by continuously bringing Omni to local events. I've tried many variants. Vensers main, forces main, a sideboard of forces, flusters, glen elendras with vensers main. They all aren't sufficient. Snapcasters and Surgicals are an odd tact I'm taking recently, for just ramping up storm count for flusters, and of course snapcaster on flusterstorm is often scoop phase for combo. Heavy bounce combined with snapcaster and flusterstorm is an odd combination, since bounce spells can become used counterspells.
There is a circular synergy between defensive bounce spells being able to migrate into cantrips or wins (crop/show/cruise) late game. Snapcaster should have been investigated long ago. I recall someone mentioning it and me foolishly brushing it off.
The white build was an attempt to seal the deal on omni by running meddling mage, which would do that job well. Just warps the rest of the deck. Still not completely set on not running 2 tundra main and sideboarding meddling mage only, but that seems horrid. I think just rolling glen elendra and vensers is stronger if I wanted to warp against omni.
I think my biggest problem with the white build so far (not knowing your list for it, so this is based on mine) is that it just feels like clunky Miracles early in the game. As the game goes long your chances of winning are excellent and you begin to take a role similar to traditional post, but you just don't have the Primeval Titan + Glimmerpost monstrocity against aggressive decks. My attempt to beat Omni-Show with my UW list ended up with 3 Iona, Shield of Emeria in the board. I also tried a 2-2 split of Iona and Oblivion Ring.
One card I've tried in the board for UG was Spine of Ish Sah but it just feels so bad outside of that matchup. I currently am trying Arcane Laboratory, which is slightly better but still not great. Both feel worse than Venser or Glen.
It's definitely a job for Glen Elendra Archmage. 2-3 in the board supporting fluster and co is actually pretty reliable. However, it is hot the best card for the rest of the meta now :/.
Truth is with Post I'm pretty lost with the shaken up meta. Cavern has been great. But the oncoming flux of fast combo to fight cruise is tough to weather. My most comfortable build only had 2 cruises, EE's and Chain of Vapor - but it doesn't feel the same. Much more testing is needed.
Also for me it's either >5 bounce, or 2x grip, or sweepers that cover ulamog just fine. 10 vs 11 mana is actually very significant, so if I have any of the above criteria covered, I go for kozilek 100%.
@Ponders
Liliana is a big problem when they tick it up making you discard or worse ultimate it and you lose half your lands. I find that the plant from Khalni garden has saved Titan from Liliana or chump blocked to win the game many times. Sometimes you don't have enough lands in play or can't risk the wasteland and Titan surviving to attack is game winning. Second Forest would be mainly against Burn.
I don't like mulliganing for Leylines I can't cast. Its not an instant win because they do have creatures, price and vortex. If you mulliganed too low they might get there with creatures. Danger of price is always there when you run a ton of non basic lands.
@Zotmaster
Show and Tell is not the plan A most of the time but against Burn it is. I was on 3 Show and Tell for awhile and just went to 4.
You don't always have 2 untapped mana for Trickbind sometimes you get a hand like Tropical, Vesuva, CloudPost and can't have trickbind up without being exposed to wasteland where 1 mana stifle/needle/crop rotation is castable. I still like Needle for the ability to turn off all Wastelands or a planeswalker like Liliana or Jace. Needle is vulnerable to getting destroyed though.
@RockLee
Your build looks great with all the spells to maximize treasure cruise. Snapcaster sounds awesome. With that many cantrips not sure you miss Top that much but do you miss Pithing Needle? Turning off Wastelands or Liliana is darn good.
@winglerw28
Omnishow match up is pretty horrible but you don't see it all that often most people run Sneak and Show which you can needle sneak attack. Although watch out for Through the Breach.
@TimHarding
I am missing the main deck Engineered Explosives and Trinket Mage I used to have now that I am running Treasure Cruise but I still run Engineered Explosives in the board.
Not cutting Ulamog any time soon the ability to destroy permanents rather then bounce them gets you out of some otherwise unwinable situations where they have multiple Ensnaring Bridge where Ulamog use Karakas to bounce it and replay with both elements searchable is easier then finding 2 bounce and bouncing both in the same Turn.
i really want to like this deck but its just too slow, and using bounce spells to buy time seems incredibly inefficient. There are 3 options i see as buying time. You can try to speed the deck up, you can actually remove the threats, or you can slow the opponent down.
i see that some have tried to "slow opponent down" with something like trick bind, however with only 3 its hardly a strategy to rely on. You could increase the count so like 3 stifle, 3 trick bind, would defiantly slow opponents mana and things like SFM trigger amongst other things.
There have been some fog effects but nothing overly committing like only 1 moments peace main.
has anyone tried something like "clear the land". usually results in 2-3 lands into play castable t3. ya ideally you'd probably rather show and tell emrakul for 3 mana but thats not always possible.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
At eldrazi mana, looping kozilek and emrakul can give you infinite recycles of whatever removal you're playing, you just need to work a little harder.
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