Some of us still run Leyline of the Void SB. I would be afraid of Treasure Cruise if things like Trinisphere and Sinkhole and Nether Void didn't exist.Originally Posted by mysteriofuentez
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I am doing a GPT on Oct 25th. I will certainly post results, bt your comments about Treasure Cruise are duly noted.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
That is a really easy way to end a discussion. I agree with you that the results are not always in favor of Pox. However, you stated the deck is not competative. I disagree because:
1. This archetype does not have a lot of dedicated players. That is because it does not give you wins all the time. Rather, you have to grind them.
2. Because this archetype does not grant you wins all the time, it does not attract a lot of players.
I firmly believe that in the hands of a true Pox-player this deck is Hell to play against. It will not be Tier One, nor will it ever see a lot of play, and yes TC will be a pain in the ass, but still... This deck is Pox, and it will never be easy to end a game with, whether there is a card like TC or not.
If you don't like this deck, because you don't like grinding a game, then just don't play it. If you want to win nowadays (taking the more easy route), play Blue.
Hi, i'm a Burn Player but i do a lot of test on pox for 2 reason 1) itīs a deck very fun and dificult to use 2) one of my team mate has this deck.
Because of TC i use Chains of Mephistopheles in maideck. In my testing i have never be able to win a single match against lands and i haven't lose a match against show and tell or reanimator.
3x Cursed Scroll
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Nether Void
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
2x Waste Not
4x Thoughtseize
13x swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Mishra's Factory
4x wasteland
SIDE
3x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
3x Pithing Needle
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Waste Not
i know many of you have been discussing about splash white or green, but the problem i see with the splash is what to put out; in my opening hand i want 2 o 3 lands, 2 o 3 discard and 1 spell to destroy a land, i know many of you have using Abrupt Decay or Enlightened Tutor+BatterSkull but i canīt understand why do you have this cards in your 60, i know the power such cards give to some deck, but in a old fashion control deck like this, you donīt want to close the game early, you want to stabilize the board and the game and take advantage of that, that is the reason why i use Waste Not. Well that is all i can said for now i hope you can give me your thoughts about "my idea" of the deck and what i think about the deck does
^^ this...
"But Pox can't do that consistently!" Yeah, and combo decks can't turn 1 kill you 100% of the time. If they did, Legacy would be flooded with Combo and Force of Will would be worth $5 instead of its current price. I can consistently hand/land lock an opponent out of a game for 4-5 turns. If they flounder and crawl out of that muck, I was probably drawing nothing useful for 5 turns... Them's the breaks at times.
I play Pox to bring misery to people who want easy wins. I've made people scoop after the 2nd Sinkhole and 2nd Smallpox were successfully cast. It will win, it just depends on how you sculpt the sideboard. My sideboard specifically targets it's 3 known weaknesses: Swarm Aggro, GY Resource, and to a lesser extent, non-creature non-land activations. Lock the board, imprison your opponent, and make them sweat knowing they REALLY can't sideboard against you...
Also, if you find Pox too slow, maindeck 1-2 copies of the original Big Pox. I'll never go below 1 MD simply because the 1/3rd life loss is stupidly zexy.
P.S. I still don't like Waste Not.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
What do you think of surgical extraction on this deck?
I think it's a nice fit with this strategy of hand/land lock
If you are talking SB: it's a good card, but I would rather go for Leyline of the Void (just preference)
If you are talking main: never tested it, but it could be useful
Once as a gamble, I Surgically Extracted an enemy's wasteland after he wasted my 1st [of 3] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. He had 2 wastes in his hand and he was mana locked till he died to Nether Spirit.
Sometimes, wtf plays work and in a tournament, hell, goofier things have happened.
Once I saw a 43 lands deck get mana screwed.
Surgical is VERY strong game 1 vs. decks with low threat counts [control decks] I'd run it if the meta is slow like that.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I updated my Pox list post M15 to sth like this
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Waste Not
4 Dark Confidant
2 Master of the Feast
+lands
+sb Leyline of the Void, Toxic Deluge etc
it felt pretty good. Unlike traditional Pox it is a bit "combo-like". Turn 1 Dark Ritual into Waste Not/Thoughtseize followed by turn 2 Hymn to Tourach into more Hymn/Sinkhole/Smallpox depending on what you hit.
Turn 1 ritual into thougtseize+Dark Confidant is also strong, or Liliana, even t1 Master of the Feast went the distance most times because many decks only have a few select ways of dealing with him and often need to topdeck it. It's mainly in the deck to keep Waste Not + Discard alive in the midrange topdeck war, when pox struggles most. But sometimes it is a super-Delver on turn 1 putting away the game in 3 or 4 turns.
Cabal Therapy is terrific when you hit a creature with Waste Not in play, flash it back immediately if you want to hit another card that you just saw.
I would probably try to fit Empty the Pits into the 75 somehow.
That's what i was thinking. Sometimes you can mana lock using it on a dual or even on a fetch.
Against combo it's still good if you can take the pieces with discard first.
In a deck with discard and pox i think it will be good most of the time
Made me laugh really hard
It's true though!
Jup, and I can picture some opponents, everytime I read the sentence
On other news; I came across a list playing three Underworld Dreams main... Seems a bit slow being another three-drop, but I can understand the reasoning. Any thoughts?
I have realised UD won't stop people play TC. Sun Droplet Could be worth trying.
Massive amounts of creature kills is also good.
If they cannot use creatures then they only got burn spells left which may not be enough.
Underworld Dreams would be very viable for me had it been a BB instead of BBB mana cost. It's a win con that can only be 'played around' by not drawing anything [lol].Jup, and I can picture some opponents, everytime I read the sentence
On other news; I came across a list playing three Underworld Dreams main... Seems a bit slow being another three-drop, but I can understand the reasoning. Any thoughts?
In a meta full of Treasure Cruise and Brainstorm, it's like 8 lightning bolts for BBB.A turn one UWD off a Dark Ritual is doom for a combo player since they now can only draw half as many cards or maybe less. It is the other side of The Rack style pox. Goblin Ringleader style cards won't like it either.
However, a cmc of 3 usually means it's a POWER card that should win you the game almost immediately (True-Name Nemesis is that example). Master of Feasts, I can understand, but UWD is very niche depending on the draw speed of your meta.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Tournament report
I went 3-2 at Legacy side event for GP Los Angeles. Not stellar but I have reason to feel pretty positive about it. At 3-1 I was in the match where the winner was likely to land third or fourth and very very narrowly lost in the third and final game for that.
The list I used:
2 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 The Abyss
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
3 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Side
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Tombstalker
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Toxic Deluge
The first game I was matched up against a guy I had played on several occasions. In those cases he was on Jund and had only ever managed to draw against my Pox. This time he was on BURG Tempo and it was a very different case.
BURG Tempo (1-2)
G1: This starts rather well, first turn Chalice, some Liliana action and a Tombstalker beatdown.
G2-G3 but the second and third games he had nut draws. Between his Wastelands and Stifle of fetchland activation I couldn't keep any lands out. He literally killed 5-6 lands each of those games so I never even had enough lands to play around Daze .
I'm not sure any multicolor deck I could have brought could have withstood 3 Wastelands and 3 fetch Stifles each game. It was a bit of luck, but that deck also had a lot of ponders, brainstorm and treasure cruise to dig for them, so when I couldn't get three mana to play Chalice around Daze, which after a few draws would've gotten forced probably. I drew my uncountable combo lands lucky but unlucky had them wasted and had no Loam.
At the end he exclaimed: "I finally beat Pox!"
(0-1)
UR Delver (2-1)
You knew they'd be there, and they were, in force (pun sorta intended) But I put my foot up UR Delver the second match.
G1: He actually won the first game with a first turn Delver that went all the way and managed to Force his way through.
G2-G3 The last two matches I got a first turn Mox into Hymns and Chalices and the like. Second turn Liliana, then third turn Decayed his Blood Moon (fairly lucky there) , Living Wished for a Tombstalker since I didn't have Depths yet. And smacked him with a big demon for a few turns while decimating his hand.
(1-1)
Elves (2-0)
Beat elves 2-0 in round 3. The guy was not very happy.
G1: He Craterhoofed on turn 3, but it wasn't quite enough to kill me. I dug for a Thespian Stage with my Sylvan Library to partner with the Depths I already had in play. Blocked the Craterhoof and swung in for the win.
G2 Next game went something like Chalice, Sphere of Resistance, Hymn, Living Wish, Marit Lage. Boom. He only had two land which couldn't get around Sphere, even with a Deathrite Shaman sitting there since the first turn eating my Wastes and Fetches.
(2-1)
Jund (2-1)
G1 I kept a dubious hand. I think it was a Bayou and a Dark Depth and a Living Wish, so essentially one colored mana that could be Wasted, but I knew that if I just drew a land in the next couple of turns and I would win. He didn't Waste me and I drew a Wasteland of my own and cast Living Wish for the Thespian's Stage and won next turn.
G2: He kept the pressure on well with Shaman, Confidant and Goyf. He landed his own Liliana first and I couldn't rid myself of them and he Thoughtseized my Abyss the turn before I was able to play it.
G3: A little less land destruction in this build, but in this game It was very effective. He barely ever got off of one land and it wasn't long before I naturally drew into the land combo and Marit Lage put him out of his misery.
(3-1)
What, I'm the running for a high place after that poor start? Well, it wasn't to be. Once again I fell to BURG Tempo (no Stifle this time though, thank god)
BURG Tempo (1-2)
G1: He wins the roll, and I cringe playing against Daze with a deck with no cc1 spells. I try and go through them with Abrupt Decay and play through them with Hymn and disruption, still Daze is a pain with Chalice sometimes.
Know it was quite instrumental in some of my wins. Anyway he keeps enough pressure on with early dudes and I'm slow to get my machine rolling with perhaps too much playing around Daze.
G2: A super grindy affair, where it was a lot of draw-go with only my Liliana on the whole board, till I got a Living Wish for the other half of the combo.
G3: I'm thinking, man just one game away from the money, I hope I don't mess this up too bad. Once again he gets guys out faster than I can kill them, and by just the 4th turn he has nearly 10 pts a damage in a swing and had knocked me down about that much too already. Though naturally drawing the land combo by this time he had enough damage on the board that he could swing in for leathal after blocking Marit Lage with a Delver, and though I had enough mana to play around Daze finally, he had a Force waiting for the Toxic Deluge and that was it. Maybe I was too deferential to his counters this game and should have powered through more of them so he didn't have one left for the Deluge, as I just needed one turn to swing in. Also I had trouble with getting two black mana that last game, which kept me off of a Hymn and Smallpox that might have helped.
(3-2)
Chalice is great, and was instrumental in many of the wins, and just blanks many decks, but building around it for no 1cc spells hurt against tempo counters and there is a lot of that out there right now. I may look at my build again that has the Thoughtsiezes, Innocent Bloods and Entomb/Crop Rotation and see if I like the speed more for this meta or if I stay with the raw permanent power of Chalice.
Mono-black may have a field day against this meta if Treasure Cruise could be negated by something other than a clunky Leyline, or a Surgical Extraction that comes after the effect. Thoughtsieze can catch them, but it seems to be a shame to have to waste them on that.
Hey Beez, I am running a similar pox list. I still think chalice on 1 is the way to go in these lists, but I have been considering things like Unmask or Distress for a thoughtseize type effect that doesnt get countered by Chalice@1.
I wish we had an effective answer to Treasure Cruise.
Uba Mask and Chains of Mephistopheles works. Uba Mask is especially effective vs. blue decks chock full of non-permanents. My meta is actually not blue dominant so I don't run either but only time will tell.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Note that it isn't TC that kills you. The UR delver win through beat-down and bolts. Can you handle that then you win.
I do run 2 chains in the SB (though only because we allow proxies at our LGS for legacy). Uba Mask is a pretty crazy card. What happens when they cast brainstorm? they exile 3 and still have to put 2 back?
True. Chalice on 1 does shut off a lot of their deck, but it has to get through the counter magic.
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