Magic - the Cheatering

[JDK]

Both Groups of players do. The difference is that one money finish in a ETP or smaller is enough to make a living for quite a while and you have nothing like this in MTG. In MtG you HAVE to finish in the money in most events you enter to make a living ergo the pressure on the players is much higher which forces these players to take every advantage possible. On top of that you get the usual Problem of the games structure (personal decks, card shuffle, etc) which has several weaknesses itself then it comes to fair play

So everybody being successful in MTG is a cheater? Please, listen to yourself. Might some of them cheat? Sure, but just because they are significantly better (or finish better for that matter) I am not going to call everyone a cheater.

These "pros" play in a significant larger amount of events than they make top16 finishes. Regardless of what Poker players do. I'm not even sure why you throw them into the equation. Yes, poker leaves less (no?) room to cheat, but you also have to consider these games are different. Deckbuilding, Metagaming and Format-Experience along with play-skill allow for exceptional and dedicated players to actually make several good finishes throughout the year.

[Lemnear]

So everybody being successful in MTG is a cheater?

Where did I say this? I did never hint that winning a tournament equals being a cheater or the like

Please, listen to yourself. Might some of them cheat? Sure, but just because they are significantly better (or finish better for that matter) I am not going to call everyone a cheater.

i neither did. Comprehend what I wrote instead of calling me out on your self-created hyperboles

These "pros" play in a significant larger amount of events than they make top16 finishes. Regardless of what Poker players do. I'm not even sure why you throw them into the equation.

it wasn't me who came up with poker.

Yes, poker leaves less (no?) room to cheat, but you also have to consider these games are different. Deckbuilding, Metagaming and Format-Experience along with play-skill allow for exceptional and dedicated players to actually make several good finishes throughout the year.

poker also features several formats. The problem is that the whole aspect of shuffling and sleight of hands is impossible to eliminate from MTG and that it is a common used tool to push your performance in a game which isn't ment to support anything like a professional scene in terms of making a living off it.

[JDK]

it wasn't me who came up with poker.

Well, you quoted me and posted "Both Groups of players do. The difference is that one money finish in a ETP or smaller is enough to make a living for quite a while and you have nothing like this in MTG."

Where did I say this? I did never hint that winning a tournament equals being a cheater or the like

"Supports my stance that 100% of professional players are cheaters (on opportunity). Being a constant Top 8/16 Performer in a varying field with varying opponents and victim of your own decks variance, is impossible."

"We're not talking about "doing well" and being among the top 20% of most tournaments you enter in your favorite format. It's about being always in the T16 in any event those players enter no matter the format. That stuff leaves a fishy taste on my tongue"

Who does that? Who are you referring to, if not to the "pros"?

[Lemnear]

You realize that "being successful in MTG" and "winning a tournament" isn't the same as "being a pro and make a living out of your money finishes"? You acknowledge the pressure and temptation to cheat if it makes the difference between being able to pay your rent/keep Sponsors or not, while playing a game with all it's flaws of competitive structure and monetary support.

MTG is a lot like eSports in terms of what it takes to make a living off playing a game. This includes the consumed time of playtesting, analysis, etc. MTG has nothing in common with poker and it's professional players aside the Sponsoring System, so it's completely pointless if bruizar wants to talk about "variance" and "Poker" to draw parallels to MTG ignoring that the variance in MTG is a totally different thing than the possibility calculations in Poker.

[Michael Keller]

You realize that "being successful in MTG" and "winning a tournament" isn't the same as "being a pro and make a living out of your money finishes"? You acknowledge the pressure and temptation to cheat if it makes the difference between being able to pay your rent/keep Sponsors or not, while playing a game with all it's flaws of competitive structure and monetary support.

MTG is a lot like eSports in terms of what it takes to make a living off playing a game. This includes the consumed time of playtesting, analysis, etc. MTG has nothing in common with poker and it's professional players aside the Sponsoring System, so it's completely pointless if bruizar wants to talk about "variance" and "Poker" to draw parallels to MTG ignoring that the variance in MTG is a totally different thing than the possibility calculations in Poker.

No one is making a sustained living playing Magic: the Gathering. At all. There is also no such thing as a "professional" Magic player.

[Bryant Cook]

Got to agree with Lemnear on this one. Any good player who does well over a long period of time is a dirty cheater.

I wish to start a petition to get Oarsman and Bryant Cook banned from this forum for being such a horrible part of our community.

Yeah, I'm just the worst. Let me know when you have it up and running.

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, I'm just the worst. Let me know when you have it up and running.

Might be a while mate, seams that Lem and I are a little bit outnumbered here. :p

[JDK]

You realize that "being successful in MTG" and "winning a tournament" isn't the same as "being a pro and make a living out of your money finishes"?

Again: Who does that? Who makes a living out of the winnings from playing MTG? Who makes top16 in every event they play in?

[cdr]

There's some college-age kids that do little but play MTG, but they're either in college or working "real" jobs (even if "real job" is working for SCG). Older "pro players" are mostly successful professionals - not the MTG sort of professional.

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

[Lemnear]

Again: Who does that? Who makes a living out of the winnings from playing MTG? Who makes top16 in every event they play in?

you don't get that with winning you can aquire Sponsors like MTG Madness/Channel Fireball/etc., get payed writer positions and people/websites buying your articles, etc. all adding up with your won money at the tournaments itself. You can look at SCGs Homepage to see the connection between being a top grinder/Sponsoring/Articles.

If you look up everybody's darling Alex B.'s results, you can find 54(!) Top 16 placings at tournaments like SCG Opens/Invitationals/PT Qualifier/etc. since 2010 and that despite of his 1,5 year ban in Dec. 2011.

Jared Boettcher has 21 Top 16 finishes since 2013 in SCG Opens/Invitationals/GPs/PTs/PTQs

Take these numbers (timespan, finishes, tournaments held by SCG over a year, number of PTQs held over a year in the US, money gained) and think about them. I'm not believing in the fairy tale of "just very talented players" looking at those surreal results.

There's some college-age kids that do little but play MTG, but they're either in college or working "real" jobs (even if "real job" is working for SCG). Older "pro players" are mostly successful professionals - not the MTG sort of professional.

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

What is "a few percentage points" if you force your opponent to mull 1-2 times each game like Trevor did or Fetchland-lock your opponent with every shuffle effect he uses like Boettcher? How many actual and Virtual cardadvantage is needed to win a match just because of that? Hell, I would BUY an article on that topic :)

Yeah, I'm just the worst. Let me know when you have it up and running.

Is this now an ironic response to an ironic post? ;P

[clavio]

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

It's far easier to get good at cheating than it is to get good at Magic. And even then, very few players have gone on the run Boettcher is currently on.

[kombatkiwi]

There's some college-age kids that do little but play MTG, but they're either in college or working "real" jobs (even if "real job" is working for SCG). Older "pro players" are mostly successful professionals - not the MTG sort of professional.

All cheating does is add a few percentage points. Some people aren't patient enough (or just too addicted to cheating) to get those percentage points through time and effort. If you can make a T8 cheating, you have enough skill that you could've done it the honest way.

It can add way more than a 'few' percentage points...

This argument doesn't really make sense because if you know how to play the game at a high level AND you can cheat then you get the edge from both, it's not like you have to make a choice.

[Lord Seth]

I found this highly amusing.

[Darkenslight]

Again: Who does that? Who makes a living out of the winnings from playing MTG? Who makes top16 in every event they play in?

You don't have to: You just have to hit Platinum for the Year - that gets you $12,000 for attending the PTs, $1,000 for going to the WMC, $500 for going to any WMCQ, and $250 for just attending a GP. Those are just for turning up and playing, even if you scrub out 0-6 after your byes. And don't forget that, at that level, Wizards also pays for your hotel and airfare.

It's not easy, but I can definitely see the possibility of being a Pro Magic player.

[Dice_Box]

You don't have to: You just have to hit Platinum for the Year - that gets you $12,000 for attending the PTs, $1,000 for going to the WMC, $500 for going to any WMCQ, and $250 for just attending a GP. Those are just for turning up and playing, even if you scrub out 0-6 after your byes. And don't forget that, at that level, Wizards also pays for your hotel and airfare.

It's not easy, but I can definitely see the possibility of being a Pro Magic player.

How could you play so much and not just burn out of the game? At the point it is a job and I feel you would have to work real hard to keep any kind of love for the game.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How could you play so much and not just burn out of the game? At the point it is a job and I feel you would have to work real hard to keep any kind of love for the game.

It's pretty possible that those people actually hate the game. One of the reasons why I never wished to be a pornstar; although I really love loving, I prefer doing it with my wife when we're in mood for it, preferably without other people interfering.
Btw, "occupation: Magic pro" is one of the silliest in world, and as someone already noted on this very boards, it leaves you with people (mostly of M gender) that have experiences and social skills of a teenager.
Moreover something something old age pension.

[Julian23]

How could you play so much and not just burn out of the game? At the point it is a job and I feel you would have to work real hard to keep any kind of love for the game.

It might surprise you but there are people who really enjoy their job.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It might surprise you but there are people who really enjoy their job.

There' no need to be ironic. It might surprise you but there are people who really dislike their job.

[Dice_Box]

It might surprise you but there are people who really enjoy their job.

I understand that, but have you ever sat down to test, done it for two afternoons and then just not wanted to go to the event you tested for anyway? Magic is fun, I enjoy it but if I was going to work around it I think I would like to judge and not play. I mean I like to play, but that burnout would hit so hard.

[H]

I understand that, but have you ever sat down to test, done it for two afternoons and then just not wanted to go to the event you tested for anyway? Magic is fun, I enjoy it but if I was going to work around it I think I would like to judge and not play. I mean I like to play, but that burnout would hit so hard.

That honestly has never happened to me. I've been playing since '96 and after every game I've played, I've always wanted to play another, except when I physically wasn't feeling well (too tired, sick, etc.). I've played a 5 hour multiplayer EDH game and still wanted to play another right after (no one volunteered). There's always that feeling that I could have made better decisions, even if I won.

I think part of it is that I am lucky enough to own most of the cards, so I can build most of the decks. I always want to try a new deck. If I had to play the same deck over and over, I would almost certainly get burned out though. It helps to play different formats too, I am always trying to jam in a few Vintage games between Legacy rounds, or find someone to EDH before Legacy or Vintage. Hell, I'd even Modern if I found an opponent really.

We were musing on our recent drive back from Texas, between brewing random decks, that if one of us won the lottery, we'd become a "professional player" not for the money, or the prizes, but just to play and win. We even joked that we'd rip up all the prizes, we just wanted to win to win. Fly to New York for a win a box? Win and throw it away.

I don't know, man, it's like we just like Magic...