Yeah I hear you on the reanimator matchup. However, I think its the worst matchup imo and therefore we would require in inordinate amount of our own hate to combat it. In my past experience I've found that if the meta game shifts more towards Reanimator I would definitely shelf dredge for a bit because its that difficult to win. Reanimating Elesh Norn is basically game.Originally Posted by Parcher
In all honesty I feel like Dredge is only a dog in this matchup and is slightly favored against the rest of the field (if it doesn't already have a glaring advantage).
I think Extraction is only ok against us. There are too many things they need to hit to cut off our legs (Bridge, Ichorid, Narcomoebas, Cabal Therapy, dredgers maybe, DR if its run, etc..). 1 is definitely not game. I would argue they need to see multiples or have the classic Snapcaster Mage flashback to make them relevant. Especially when you can fire off Therapy pre-emptively.
I don't think DR is necessarily weak against Extraction because sometimes they act as a rattlesnake forcing them to extract it or risk letting you reanimate a giant troll or one of your DR bullets. Its yet another card they have to worry about. It gives dredge a different angle.
So there's something I've been wondering:
Why do people run Whispmare and Ingot Chewer over something like Demystify or Shatter? You still cast them (and at the same cost) so they can be countered. Is it just to get around Spell Pierce and make them harder to hit with Counterbalance? Is it to be able to Dread Return them after killing the hate? They don't have the most impressive combat stats.
I know a lot of people use Ancient Grudge but I rarely see Ray of Revelation (this I chalk up to artifacts being more prevalent than enchantments in general).
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
Yeah, you basically hit most of the reasons why they are played over your mentioned examples. Furthermore, but in rare scenarios, Mare and Chewer are able to trigger your Bridges when you evoke them. CB shouldn't be the problem at all, but it is indeed a huge upgrade to sidestep Pierce.
Thalia is also a card.
Chalice is also a reason. And there is the off-chance you can recur them with Thug triggers. All of these are still pretty marginal. My main deciding factor would be if you have the room in your SB for seperate Artifact, and Enchantment removal cards. Most need to condense those slots.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I've noticed that over the past 2 years or so most Dredge pilots have been cutting Dread Return and the combo-kill from the deck instead relying on just Ichorid and Zombie beats. Is there a particular reason for this? Being able to kill out of nowhere is always a good option for a deck to have and cutting the combo-kill from the main deck means no turn 1 kills though turn 2 kills are still possible. Does not including the combo increase the consistency of the deck enough to warrant cutting it? Or is there another reason apart from personal preference?
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
Mostly to make mulligans more consistently full of enablers. That option is usually in sideboard when you need it. Firing of 2 or 3 Therapies with 16-18 power on the table may not be a 'combo kill', but it's where you want to be game 1.
I play one dread return main for value, no dedicated targets though. They're in the board like you said.
Then for games 2 & 3 if you have DR + Flame-Kin Zealot/Flayer of the Hatebound in the sideboard, what match ups would you bring them in for?
I know which match ups I'd want DR + Ashen Rider/Iona/Elesh Norn in against. But which ones improve by bringing in the classic combo kill?
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
A little outdated, but you may want to bring Zealot in MU's where you have to race and you will mostly be relatively undisrupted. Storm comes to mind. In my oppinion, it's not needed nowadays, cause you are already fast enough to fire off your mini-mind-twists.
I picked up dredge a few weeks ago and have been grinding a ton of games with it since to get to know the deck. But in my testing I've come across dozens of openers that I'm not sure if they're keepable or not. So I wanted to post a handful of hands and see what everyone here thinks of them. Assume that you're running the quad lazer style list, you're playing against a completely unknown opponent, and say weather or not you'd keep and if play or draw would influence your decision. Also if they seem to be especially weird explain how you'd play them out over the first couple turns or hope that they would go. Also if there was one cosmetic but impactful change, such as having a looting instead of a careful study, would you keep it then?
Hand #1
2 cabal therapy, putrid imp, 3 gemstone mine, 1 narcomeba
Hand #2
2 gemstone mine, 2 careful study, 1 faithless looting, 1 dread return, 1 coliseum
Hand #3
2 coliseum, 1 LED, 1 bridge, 1 grave troll, 1 narcomeba, 1 ichorid
Hand #4
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 1 LED, 1 breakthrough, 3 narcomeba
Hand #5
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 2 careful study, 2 bridge, 1 ichorid
Hand #6
1 LED, 1 grave troll, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 bridge, 1 ichorid, 1 narcomeba, 1 looting
Hand #7
2 cabal therapy, 1 putrid imp, 3 city of brass, 1 narcomeba
Hand #8
1 gemstone mine, 1 careful study, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 dread return, 1 ichorid, 2 bridge
Hand #9
2 LED, 1 gemstone mine, 1 coliseum, 1 careful study, 2 break through
After playing a ton of goldfish games with the deck I'm pretty sure I have a handle on which of those hands are acceptable and which should be sent back as tempting as they might seem. Still I would love to hear what other people have to say on the more interesting hands that we could get.
Wouldn't keep against a completely unknown opponent instead hoping for a better six that actually does stuff T1. For game 2 this might be keepable, especially if the oppo had to mull to get hate.
This is a keep, not the fastest start, but can already be pretty nuts T2. If you hit a LED on your looting it goes insane.
On the draw I'd keep, as DDD can net you 2 a coliseum activation, 2 if you durdle a bit more. On the play try to get something better.
Mull, 3 moeba's is too much.
Keep, not really explosive, but it has all you need.
I have won with hands like this and I have lost. If they have FoW you just sit there. Completely unkown I'd try it.
Not much for you in there, always a mulligan.
Tricky one, as there are 2 bridges in your hand. Not really sure, this one can go either way, at least to me.
Keep, T1 study, T2 breaktrhough + likely coliseum is a definite keep.
Hope this helps, this is what I would do.
lots of risky moves in dredge but the odds are pretty generous. the odds are in our favor so it usually works out if you keep and resolve cantrips.
You can not cast faithless looting in your upkeep, it's still a sorcery. Just try playing some of those hands if you can't do the math like me. But dredge rewards risky moves. (sometimes, other times you get kicked in the nuts)
Hand 6 yes of course, reverse that order. Dredge your draw then main phase try to resolve looting. Thanks for correcting me.
I'd probly just mull that hand. We can win mulling down to 4,
Interesting post Stokpile
Any other input on play vs draw, I'm still not practiced enough?
Hey stokpile, nice questions, I am also new to dredge and may tend to keep more hands as I should. Very short answers:
#1 dont keep no dredger
#2 keep, has many outlets which is favorable if your opponent is playing blue
#3 keep, it has a lot of potential to turn 2-3 tableflip
#4 dont keep, 3 narcomoebas is really bad
#5 your average hand, I tend to keep but can easily see mulliganing here
#6 keep, why is this hand even on the list.
#7 same as hand #1
#8 dont keep, this looks to weak even if careful study doenst get countered
#9 keep, easy keep
So it seems that keeping hands that are heavy on loot effects but without a dredger are ok depending on how many you have. I've been going with a personal rule of at least 2 loot effects and something that can help me slingshot ahead like a break through if I miss on the first two turns to make up for lost time. The hands that I've been the most worried about are ones like hand 8 and 5. They seem good, but have several cards that we do not want in our hand ever. Like a hand full of birdges or ichorids makes me want to mull because we have to loot away the dredgers and the bridge and still hit another dredger next turn. So if we don't hit a Pimp or a LED the hand is deceptively slow with all the loots spent dumping essential cards. Dredging a ton is pointless if you're not hitting your pay off cards.
I was looking at it the same way that I would look at a opener of affinity in modern. There's a ton of 0-1 mana artifacts, but without a cranial plating the hand is terrible. A dredge hand that can dredge a lot but isn't likely to hit a bridge for a while might not actually accomplish anything. Is this wrong?
I can understand not keeping a hand without much action even though you can cast therapy 4 times right away. I suppose you just end up giving your opponent time to draw out of it if there's no action on your end afterwords. Like hand 1 might be fine if you know what to name on the first one, but the other version of that hand with all pain lands is a bit too much I think.
I haven't read any other comments so as to not change my original line of thought lol. You can ask me about a particular scenario so I can give more insight. I might start to get lazy towards the end. hah.
Comments on Hand #1: (Mull) You have no dredger and no gas (i.e no Careful Study, Faithless Looting, Cephalid, Breakthrough,etc.)
Comments on Hand #2: (Keep) I think I'll take my odds here. You have multiple study effects and an already dead Dread Return you can automatically bin off one of the study effects. (assuming you were on the play) If they don't tap out their first turn you have the ability to wait an additional turn to play around a potential Spell Pierce. You just have soo many live draws that I would definitely just keep this.
Comments on Hand #3: (Keep Tentatively) This is simply relying on the Coliseum with the GraveTroll draw and you already have a guaranteed Ichorid, though the earliest this guy is coming back is turn 3. On the play I would simply drop the LED and pass. On your turn 2 draw up to 7, drop the coliseum and sacrifice the LED for 3 Blue mana reaching threshold and getting to activate the Coliseum and dredging. If you're on the draw go up to 8 on your turn, drop Coliseum, drop LED and crack it to "go off". My reasoning is that if you're not going to actually use the coliseum the same turn then don't drop it unless you know your opponent is definitely not running wasteland. Then I can see a reason for waiting until next turn to get double activations. Its all in context over the first couple of turns...
Comments on Hand #4: (Mull Tentatively) This hand is pretty risky altogether. Not only because you already have 3 Narcos (trust me Ichorids and zombies can still get the job done), but because you really want to hit the Faithless Looting during this sequence. Assuming we don't brick on the first 6 (this is also the assumption in Hand 3) we would ideally like to see some number of Ichorids and bridges.
Comments on Hand #5: (Keep) You have 2 outlets and a dredger.
Comments on Hand #6: (Keep) Drop LED, crack it and here we go. You at least see 11 cards with a bridge and an Ichorid already in the bin. With this you know you'll be able to additionally dredge another 11 cards over the next couple of turns at least. Most decks wont be able to keep up with the value dredge puts out anyway.
Comments on Hand #7: (Mull) Look at reasoning for Hand #1. Your best play is to drop Putrid Imp turn 1. On your turn 2 Draw a card and Cast Therapy based on what he/she is playing and having the ability to cast the 2nd one and even potentially flashing back by saccing the Putrid Imp (seemingly bad unless the card you drew for your turn was a dredger to start the engine) to leave your opponent with no hand. How the rest of the turns play out is anyone's guess, but overall the hand is pretty mediocre as the best your hoping for is a slow dredge.
Comments on Hand #8: (Keep) But I hate these hands because the 1 outlet you have will have to get you there much like Hand #6. But at least you can bin a dredger and an Ichorid assuming we didn't hit another dredger off the draw 2. Bridges in your hand aren't the worst in multiples at least since you can Therapy yourself to get them in the yard. the dread return in hand is not good, but watevs unless you're on the cute combo finish it being stuck in your hand don't matter. It all depends on what your Draw 2 shows off the Careful Study. Dx It just seems weird mulling a hand with an enabler and the dredger, but if you hit no gas off the 2 its going to be rough.
Comments on Hand #9: (Keep) My sentiments mirroring my comments on Hand #2. A lot of live draws and gas.
I get this, however, you do have therapy to get them out of your hand and I've done this multiple times. If your dredges are fortunate you might even get at least a zombie out of the deal, but yeah Saccing an Ichorid to strip yourself of Bridges is not the worst plan. But thats not to say the anecdote you gave is incorrect. And for that reason I can see maindecking at least a miser's Phantasmagorian so that when we have cards stuck in our hand we can still bin them with its ability.
@ Que
You pretty much echo my concerns for most of the hands. I suppose we can rely on casting therapy on ourselves later on when we have a lot of bridges/ichorids in hand, but it sure is awkward not getting any zombie action for a lot of consecutive turns.
I was curious about your response on hand 3 with the double coliseum and LED. Would you not rather wait an extra turn so that you can LED for blue and double activate the coliseum? It is still a potential 6 dredges in a single turn, the same as break through + looting flash back, which typically leads to a win on the spot if you're playing with a zealot or just a massive army next turn, assuming you don't brick hard. Or is the fear of wasteland strong enough to not want to delay it a turn?
I think its all dependent on the board state and what deck they're playing. But yeah having the 2nd Coliseum is just game. You can probably wait, I was just imagining a scenario where they might drop a RIP next turn or perhaps peel a Cage off the top etc.. anything that would derail you before you go off so I was thinking that sometimes waiting can be detrimental.
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