The benefits of Jace are against Miracles and the mirror plus other minor things you can't quite get with TC (unsummon) Jace's art is sweet too. Let's not forget the winning Deathblade list for SCG worcester still ran a Jace in the side.
Also, why isn't discard good? For one, i think it might be even better. People seem to be speculating that TC will make combo more prevalent because it will make decks slower. I have no idea whether or not this is true but if it is is discard will be another tool to fight it. I mean sure, we can't Thoughtseize the top of their deck but i hear "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush".
Red is just the best splash color for UW atm. U only need 2-(3) volcanic isand MD and this lets u play 3 REB side, and even2 Blood Moon if you want.
Hi,
I'm barely new to legacy and have heir a set of tundras from my friends, which allow me to join Legacy as I used to play modern and standard since World Wake, I was able to put up together the following list, and I wanted your opinion for this:
Lands
7 Fetchlands
4 Tundras
3 Islands
2 Plains
1 Karakas (borrowed)
1 Moorland Haunt
3 Mishra Factory
2 Wastelands
Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Geist of Saint-Traft
1 Vendillion Clique
Planewalkers
3 Jace, The mind sculptor
Inst and Sorc
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
2 Spell pierce
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Counterspell
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement
Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
Suggestions? probably the numbers are not right, I will like you to help me to get this better . Thanks
That's fairly close to a list I was recently playing. I'd say 6 three-drop creatures is more than you want. Maybe cut the two Geists for the fourth FOW and a second Supreme Verdict.
Also I would play only one copy of EE and replace Moorland Haunt with Academy Ruins. I would also play one or two more fetches for more delve fuel.
It would probably be worth testing if Dig Through Time is better for this deck than TC.
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Treasure Cruise feels pretty natural as filling up the Graveyard does not require any extra effort. Dig seems appealing but double blue feels akward, I was even thinking on removing the counterspell for the fourth FoW.Originally Posted by weaselface
2 EE seems about right with so many UR burn
So I went 4-0-1 at a gpt a couple days ago with a pretty stock UWb list with 2 Treasure Cruise and 1 Dig Through Time main. My sb was stock as well except for an enlightened tutor as well as Helm of Obedience.
My matchups were:
Burn 2-0
I resolved an early stoneforge with FOW backup, batterskull got there. x2
Nic fit control? 2-0
These were some great games. We were discussing each others decks well before the tournament started so we knew what we were playing against. SFM was huge game one and coupled with a Treasure Cruise was nigh unbeatable. Game 2 was a grind fest and it ended with a Jace ultimate.
12 post 2-1
Game 1 ended with an eldrazi...of note though...he was on a treasure cruise build. Game 2 I got an early SFM to apply some pressure. Turn 5 he went to brainstorm and I made maybe the 2nd greatest play of the day; "in response, Notion Thief"? He was blown away and scooped a turn or 2 later. Game 3...I helmed him.
UR Delver 2-1
Game 1 was a classic SFM kill with batterskull. Game 2 I decided to bring in helm RIPx2 and enlightened tutor. However, as it turns out if your opponent is ancestral recalling and swinging for 5 every turn..you dont get there. game 3 I took out the RIPs and helm, leaving enlightened tutor so I could still get EE.
I managed to stabilize with a jitte'd up true name after ee'ing 3 swiftspears.
ID then to top 8
elves 2-0
this is probably my best matchup in general. ee+swords+jitte+verdict is just punishing to any elves player
at this point top 4 split the prizes and my opponent left since he wasn't going to the GP.
Last game UWr miracles 1-2
First game true name plus Lingering Souls get there and he never drew top.
2nd game turn 1 Top and i dont have a blue card for my FOW. i TS him and see REB jace counterbalance and i take CB. goes to his turn and...Counterbalance. Still no blue card. I manage to get some LS tokens but then he plays izzet staticaster. He resolves Jace and just durdles endlessly into a win. Game 3 I Thoughtseize see a similar hand and i take counterbalance again. He draws and plays...top. I have no blue card for my FOW..again. This game consists of me drawing RIPs and sfm to his V cliques. Didnt draw a blue card for my FOW till turn 8 or so...oh well such is variance.
In retrospect I'm not sure how good the helm combo is against miracles. It makes your deck so clunky at times when you need to be the aggressor plus I'm generally taking out TS and DTT for the combo and those cards potentially help me back into the game. Does anyone have an insight into the miracles matchup? It really seems beatable but I'm just at a loss for sbing as well as approaching the matchup appropriately.
My overperformers were as follows SFM..duh. Lingering Souls. TS and DTT. I want to stress LS though as this card is just so awesome and I recommend to any esper player to try 2 copies main. Of note is it's at least 2 bodies, can't be REB'ed and the souls can function as great blockers.
Also REB is a beating and a half. I'm thinking about Hydroblast or BEB to help against all these red spells I'm seeing.
If anyone wants to see my full list I can post it too.
List please :)?
Legacy: Rituals
Vintage: Drains
Sure thing
Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True Name Nemesis
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique
Instants and Sorceries:
2 Lingering Souls
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Thoughtseize
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dig through Time
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
Other:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
4 Islands
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
SB:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Notion Thief
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
In testing, I've found treasure cruise to be very subpar for this deck--drawing 3 card is nice, but the card selection of dig through time just far outweigh the merits of having an extra card. I personally think that in grindy decks like this, tc is worse than just playing your own sensei's top. Top virtually is a +3 hand size that you can readjust with fetchlands over the course of a game.
I struggle a lot versus miracles preboard, but the matchup definitely feels favored postboard. Since esper isn't a very popular deck, they don't really dedicate much space for us--maybe an extra council's judgment, clique and/or wear//tear. I run a slightly unorthodox list, but from my mb, I usually board out 1x jitte, 2x baleful strix, 4x swords to plowshares, 1x supreme verdict, 1x thoughtseize for 1x ee, 2x pithing needle, 1x sofaf, 1x etutor, 2x spell pierce, 2x meddling mages. I basically do everything to keep them off of their top--without top, the deck is really quite clunky as they can't reliably control their miracle triggers , use counterbalance, and find answers. Meddling mage usually names terminus then swords/pyroblast/reb/entreat depending on the situation. The overall strategy that I've found to be best is to make them trade 1 for 1 while denying their top and they'll eventually run out of removal for all of your threats. The rip/helm combo is just really bad versus miracles because it shuts down your own graveyard which gives you a lot of card advantage--snapcaster, souls, ruins, dtt-- while each piece is just dead by itself.
I still struggle to answer the question DTT vs TC, so I went with a split. Every time I resolved one of these, I won so unfortunately it's still inconclusive as to which one is better. I get the whole "selecting 2 from 7 is better than draw 3" but honestly Stoneblade has such powerful cards gaining any card advantage is back breaking against any deck.
For me, preboard I'd say it's maybe 45-55 favoring them, but afterwards they get to board in like 30 REBs, needles and wear//tear. However, I think overall more testing on my part needs to be done against miracles since I struggle to find people who play the deck to test with me. Plus testing against miracles is like watching paint dry.
Hi everyone I have rebuild my decklist and now I feel happy with it, I only need some real test against tier1 decks and absolutely your advices :)
Mana Base
24 Lands
3 Mishra Factory
2 Wastelands
4 Tundra
3 Islands
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heat
2 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
12 Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Venser Sharper Savant
3 Planewalkers
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
18 Instant and Sorc
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
3 Artifacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
4 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Flustterstorm
1 Divert
1 Envelopment
All the comments are well received and appreciated , thanks
In my experience spell snare isn't great, also 3 equipment in the main probably isn't necessary. I love Venser, but what is he good in? I like him against BUG control type stuff but other than that he seems to slow or is very vulnerable to being REBed. Also, 1 Treasure Cruise? It's ancestral recall! I was at 4 then worked my way down to 2 plus a DTT. The new delve cards are scary good. It took UR delver a tier 1.5 deck to essentially the DTB in a single month. (Swiftspear helped too but it wouldnt be a thing without TC)
Your mana might be a bit off too. With many of your permanents costing double blue and only 4 fetches for basic blue i could see it being a problem. However, wasteland does seem to be on the downtrend so you might be able to get away with it. Mishra's and wastes could be ok in your meta but personally splashing for red or black gives you such a range of great cards.
Do you think is safe to remove the Venser, Spell Snare for 1 TC and 1 DTT ?
I'm working towards the manabase, maybe leaving 2 Marsh Flats and get 2 polluted deltas in exchange of windswepth
I want to leave it UW because I have other decks that uses Underground sea, and only 1 Scrubland and some swamps would not be efficient to make it esper
I'd say do it. Venser hasn't been great especially with the new UR deck, it's fast. Burn is a thing too. He's great in a grind fest but if you wanna utilize karakas more and go for a legendary thing, another clique in the main might help.
Honestly, both TC and DTT are very powerful. I personally run a 2 TC / 1 DTT split but I think any combination is fine but the overall number of these delve cards, at least in my testing, should be 3. When I did decide to run these delve cards some of the first things I took out were counterspells, namely Spell Snare and Counterspell itself.
Yup, right on with marsh flats and Polluted deltas. So actually all you need is another Underground Sea and the splash is complete. 1 Scrubland, 1 swamp and 1 underground sea is enough for a splash. (assuming fetches are correct)
Red is a great idea for a splash as well. With Legacy being bluer then ever REB's value increases tremendously.
As an aside...Why not sleeve all your cards in the same sleeve? I do this for my modern and legacy deck plus my cube. It can be a pain at times but it's still way easier than having to transfer your cards from sleeve to sleeve.
I took the wastelands away and added the 4th Mishra and one more fetch, removed Venser , spell snare and added 2TC and 1 DTT, using Mishra is one of the things that currently keep me away from the black splash.
I noticed this deck was a deck to beat a year ago, Ty Thomason List is what I aiming to and start from.
Straight U/W you get to play B2B in the sideboard. It's not quite as good ad Blood Moon but it's good. I'd really try to fit the fourth FoW somewhere in the 75. Also I like 3 Pierces with all the delve spells flying around.
Without the EE I don't like Academy Ruins too much.
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The problem with EE is that Sunburst of 2 is not the way I want to be, I need to get Back to basics :D
3 pierces seems good for now I will test 2 and 1 spell snare
Yeah EE is best when you get it to 3 Sunburst. Although, even at 2 it's still quite effective but it doesn't hit liliana or True Name aka Great Stabilizers.
My issue with B2B right now is REB. It's everywhere and it's damn good. I'll admit my analysis is based on pure conjecture but has anyone tested it in the current meta?
Spell Pierce seems pretty solid right now. The winning Deathblade list from a few weeks ago ran 3 in the main.
What do you guys think about elspeth? I know getting to 4 mana can be a bit of a pain but she has a fewthings going for her.
1.) Can't be Reb'd.
2.) Good against miracles (my worst matchup that's common to play against)
3.) Beats Jace (arguably not as awesome as he once but elspeth would be great in the mirror)
4.) Can't be decayed ( I haven't seen too many Decays around but I know they're there, BUG delver is still putting up results)
5.) Was in the SB of the UWR delver scg champ last week.
I played a UW Stoneblade list at a ~50 person GPT for NJ with 6 rounds followed by a cut to top 8. I ended up taking the entire thing down by going 4-2 in the swiss (went 3-0 initially and didn't drop a game up until round 4) and clinching 8th through breakers (there were a ton of 4-2s). I then beat the 1 seed (the round 4 opponent that I lost to) and went on to win the whole thing.
I'll post my list later. My record was:
Round 1: Nic Fit (2-0)
Round 2: Punishing Jund (2-0)
Round 3: D&T (2-0)
Round 4: Elves (1-2)
Round 5: Sneak & Show (0-2)
Round 6: Burn (2-1)
Top 8
Quarterfinals: Elves (2-0) [Round 4 Opponent]
Semifinals: RUG Delver (2-1)
Finals: D&T (2-1)
Last edited by Chaam; 11-04-2014 at 11:18 AM.
Well , can you share your list with us?
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