[Primer] Elves!

[Julian23]

Actually, not a lot of decks will incorporate that card. Miracles has Cage as a much better and more flexible option; on top of that, it's a fucking creature after all. Stoneblade also has better options even though I could see the occassional 1-of, just llike they also sometimes have 1 Notion Thief. Also, it's actually an ok card *versus* Batterskull.

[danyul]

As an Elves player, the only things I fear are my own misplays. The rest of the meta can bow down at my foresty feet!

[MadRhetoric17]

The thought of it AND spirit of the labrynth out at the same time is scary.

[Julian23]

The thought of it AND spirit of the labrynth out at the same time is scary.

Julian23 casts Craterhoof Behemoth.

[Berger]

I can agree that "against elves, this is bad, but not as bad as Cage". Still we have to remember cage wont jump on table with suprise.

Why it is ok vs Batterskull? 0o

[Julian23]

I can agree that "against elves, this is bad, but not as bad as Cage". Still we have to remember cage wont jump on table with suprise.

Why it is ok vs Batterskull? 0o

Cage actually doesn't stop Dryad Arbors played from your hand. This guy does.

Forget the part about Batterskull. I just re-read and it said "nontoken".

[jamie7keller]

@danyul I give you thumbs up. Just all of the thumbs.

@lemnear that's my point, that since it is effective against a lot of decks, a lot of decks will run it. It's not too scarey for us, but it will be a pain and it will be common, I expect.

@Julian23 you are right that it is good against a lot of the decks that might run it. But that doesn't mean they won't run it. I have seen gaddok teeg in elves decks and I have seen opponents bring it in against an elf deck. Cards like this will be really matchup specific. I could see someone dropping batterskull for jitte and this, or dropping aether vials for these guys. I don't know hide decks great.,.maybe those are terrible examples...but the point stands. Edit:ignore the batterskull thing, like those above I briefly forgot "non token"

[Julian23]

@Julian23 you are right that it is good against a lot of the decks that might run it. But that doesn't mean they won't run it. I have seen gaddok teeg in elves decks and I have seen opponents bring it in against an elf deck. Cards like this will be really matchup specific. I could see someone dropping batterskull for jitte and this, or dropping aether vials for these guys. I don't know hide decks great.,.maybe those are terrible examples...but the point stands. Edit:ignore the batterskull thing, like those above I briefly forgot "non token"

I never said anything about it not being run by decks because it also hurts themselves.

To provide some clarity on Gaddock: it's a sideboarding strategy for the mirror where you bring in Gaddock and Cabal Therapy. This allows you to be safe from Natural Order until you've drawn your own and then sacrifice Gaddock to Therapy. It's pretty weak though as you're still dead to Glimpse and hardcast Behemoths.

[jamie7keller]

Sorry, I misunderstood your prior post, but it makes sense now.

I'm sure they will debate at length cage vs priest, with some people going either way, or maybe splitting. I think it comes down to whether they are worried more about sneak and show or flashback. It will also come down to whether they think the card is safer in hand (holding mana up to flash and vulnerable to discard) or on the field (abrupt decay target, and and it will never "counter" a cast spell the way flashing in response to a blind natural order can)

In the end i think danyul had the right of it, it doesn't change or worry me much, but I need to remember to treat WX mana open the same way I would a blue Mage with cards in hand....though seize first to clear away the priest or the force of will. We do get the extra bonus of holding back abrupt decay when we cast natural order, to get them if the priest after it is played.

[ksmith]

In the end i think danyul had the right of it, it doesn't change or worry me much,

I believe it is a significant change from just casting NO into win, to

I need to remember to treat WX mana open the same way I would a blue Mage with cards in hand....though seize first to clear away the priest or the force of will. We do get the extra bonus of holding back abrupt decay when we cast natural order, to get them if the priest after it is played.

Still not something to worry about too much though.

[jim111589]

In the end i think danyul had the right of it, it doesn't change or worry me much, but I need to remember to treat WX mana open the same way I would a blue Mage with cards in hand....though seize first to clear away the priest or the force of will. We do get the extra bonus of holding back abrupt decay when we cast natural order, to get them if the priest after it is played.

i dont think its that same. we can cast TS to try to clear the way agenst Wx but if they cast priest in response and we dont have the decay we either have to wait for it, try to bff combo for it or try to just fight through it.

[Zombie]

Not an argument imo as it also blocks your Tutors for Sage. I Ponder if D&T would want to block their own Vial. I like the idea of a hatebear against S&T/Sneak Attack/Reanimator as those decks were basically abyssmal for D&T

Is an argument because some people are running 0/3 Decay 1/1 Sage split. This thing being printed should be a further argument for 0/4 Decay 1/0 Sage, IMO.

[Echelon]

Why are we making such a big thing out of this?

Does it outright kill us? No.
Do we have an answer for it, if needed? Yes.

I don't see the problem.

[haganbmj]

It's the same as every other hate card white has access to.. it only hits (at best) half of your decks options. It'll be fantastic for them when it hits the right half and worthless when it doesn't.



(Typing this on my phone at 2am, so this'll be brief. I might post some more details later.)


On another note just got back from GP Nashville.
Split the finals of the Vintage Gencon qualifier then lost the finals of the Legacy Gencon qualifier.
I went 3-1-1 in the swiss, losing to BUG delver with a pile of sideboard cards and a new control deck in the finals, which you might get to see pop up at Jersey.

The top 8 of the 46 man legacy event included 6 people from the Atlanta area. A couple of whom wrote short writeups for the event as well.

1 - Control ("The Deck 2014") [ATL alphastryk]
2 - Elves [ATL haganbmj]
3-4 - BUG Delver
3-4 - UR Delver
5-8 - Lands [ATL Tyrio]
5-8 - OmniTell w/ Red Blasts [ATL]
5-8 - Deadguy Ale [ATL Megadeus]
5-8 - Death and Taxes [ATL]


Rd 1 v Deadguy Ale (W)
Rd 2 v Turbo Fog w/ Moat/Tabernacle/Glacial Chasm (W)
Rd 3 v Affinity (W)
Rd 4 v BUG Delver (L)
Rd 5 v Goblins (W)
Rd 6 v OmniTell (ID)

Top8 v Lands (W)
Top4 v UR Delver (W)
Finals v Control (L)

Standard main. Full list is in the pimp thread if you need (sideboard: +disfigure, -needle).

3 NO, Packmaster, Ooze, Reclamation, 3 Heritage, 20 lands.

Sideboard
2 pithing needle
1 disfigure
3 thoughtseize
2 cabal therapy
1 null rod
1 sylvan library
3 abrupt decay
1 natural order
1 progenitus



NOTES
Disfigure was good as an extra removal spell against Delver. It's easy enough to play around Daze against the Delver decks.
Sylvan Library might not be right anymore.
Null Rod can be sickening against Affinity (obviously).
Wren's Run Packmaster was solid in the main for being a one-man army.
Ruric Thar would have been acceptable only once in the tournament; every other time it would have been possible I was already in great shape.

[Shagstaman]

you mustve had some unfortunate draws to lose to that deck...it looks like kinda a pile vs. elves.. all they got is stp and counterspells and the super slow ee recursion. did he just get out baneslayer super fast and clock you?? =(

gj on the finish tho. I was in that event as well, but between my poor play and my weirdo matchups (loam-pox and 38 land?? wtf?) I had a much crappier time.

[dte]

you mustve had some unfortunate draws to lose to that deck...it looks like kinda a pile vs. elves.. all they got is stp and counterspells and the super slow ee recursion. did he just get out baneslayer super fast and clock you?? =(

It doesn't seems that bad against elves to me:

Maindeck:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

Sideboard:
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
3 Vendilion Clique

The EE recursion is slow, but the first one isn't so slow, and Moat, if not an immediate gg, is often game in a deck with 7 hard counters. Post board with pyroclasm as fast sweeper and Clique it should be quite ok.

[Shagstaman]

It doesn't seems that bad against elves to me

the deck itself looks awesome, I actually enjoy a good control deck myself. Hard counters are easy to play around, and with only 2 EE and 1 ruins main, things would have go pretty swimmingly for the control player (which according to his report, they did not...so score one for me). Post board, things def get a bit harrier but I'd hope that the good guys brought in discard vs the non-miracles counterspell heavy deck. Some well timed therapies and ts's would easily break up the counter wall or strip a juicy verdict/clasm from the grip. This is all theory craft and we know what the actual outcome was, but let's just say I personally don't fear the admittedly spicy control deck.

[haganbmj]

The matchup is really rough.
I won game one against him because, as you noted, the main is potentially soft. His gameplan involves playing cantrips and aggressively spending removal spells/counterspells to fuel powerful Dig Through Times to find him the stuff he needs. I produce a board of Packmaster (championing a Visionary) and pump out a wolf. He is forced to play a Moat, but can't back it up with countermagic. I have Reclamation Sage and Natural Order in my hand with 2 Wolfs, Dryad Arbor, and a Packmaster in play. I play the Natural Order to bait out a counterspell (which he didn't have anyways), freeing me up to cast Reclamation Sage.

Game two though he's bringing in a host of cards. Again the gameplan is to aggressively spend cards to maintain an advantage and buy him time to cast Dig Through Time and other large spells. Part of the problem is that I overboarded. Talking about it with Brian, he mentioned maybe going with the style same board plan that Dredge sometimes has against Miracles.. don't board. Any board plan dilutes the raw power of the deck and my answers aren't going to beat out his Dig Through Times in a game of attrition. Instead I'm just giving him too much time to find what he needs. His deck doesn't crutch on Sensei's Tops and Counterbalance, so it's a lot harder to actually interact with what matters to him. Ideally I should be forcing him to have answers as often as possible to reduce the time he has to cantrip into them; pressuring with Deathrite and Ooze to keep his Dig Through Times and Treasure Cruises from getting out of hand.
It probably should just be
+1 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus
+2/3 Thoughtseize (maybe?)


Read his report though - he has much better notes for our match.


My decklist is here by the way : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post844131

Again, Sideboard is +1 Disfigure; -1 Pithing Needle.

[Shagstaman]

how was packmaster for you? I moved mine to the side and only brought it in once. I anticipated playing more unfair decks for some reason, and I was right... but I'm curious to know if he was good for you in the same field.

[haganbmj]

how was packmaster for you? I moved mine to the side and only brought it in once. I anticipated playing more unfair decks for some reason, and I was right... but I'm curious to know if he was good for you in the same field.

You and I had some different matchups. He was solid against BUG, demolished an affinity player just by championing reclamation sage then making deathtouchers for his ravagers, and played a roll vs Control by allowing me to build my hand. Didn't run into him in my other matches.
I ran into one situation where I would have been able to make ruric thar, but otherwise I continue to see no reason for that card.

I'm less impressed by pithing needle now. There aren't enough matches for it.