Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are still your best, and only, options for presenting a clock. Unfortunately, the problem isn't strictly Rest in Peace. It just that presenting a clock in any fashion has gotten far more difficult. You can't just rip a Tarmogoyf and sail it to victory because the only kill spell is Swords to Plowshares. Creature removal has gotten better, and Tarmogoyf is still the same beater. So is Reliquary. Fact of the matter is that "clocks" are now however quickly you can lock them.Originally Posted by Claymore
Hey guys, ended up going 4-4 in the main even of SCG Oakland.
Here is my report.
Lessons learned:
1) Listen to Warden. Play SFM + 2/3 Equips, and play Deluge in your sideboard if on Dark Maverick.
2) Punishing Maverick would have been a better choice at the end of the day I think. Be sure you can answer Delvers very quickly in this format.
Why not run mirrodin swords to help with the clock plan? A Goyf may just be a bigger bear, but a Goyf with a Sword of Light and Shadow turns off Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares while allowing him to swing through some of the creatures that would run those removal spell. Sword of Fire and Ice is similar, except has more utility for attacking and less so in anti removal.
Edit ... Sarnathed
Edit2 ... As far as early blockers go ... Id say its a toss up between Tarmogoyf and Scryb Ranger. Goyf has the benefit of being virtually immune to burn and being able to eat most other creatures, but is susceptible to grave hate. Scrub on the other hand can block Delver indefinitely while providing utility with Mom, but dies to pretty much everything without protection.
Updated my Dark Maverick list as well: now I'm on a "Save the Hatebear" plan A.
A few assumptions made here though for the sideboard (against a blind meta):
1. SFM decks are easily hated out via targeted discard after SFM hits the field but before they're able to activate. Also, outside of TNN or other evasive beat being equipped, a Batterskull equipped to most things, even a germ token, can get walled completely by an active Mom, and other equips can be destroyed via Abrupt Decay. However, currently the list's only true out to an active batterskull is to just outrace it, either by walling it while swinging through it via Mirrodin Swords or another Mom, or just punching the turbo button with Bob and Library and flooding the board with enough creatures for an alpha strike.
2. Outside of Storm variants, most combo decks hate to be on the other end of a Containment Priest, and outside of Show and Tell variants, most combo decks hate to be on the other side of a Gaddock Teeg. Thalia slows down both as well. Elves! however, requires additional hate in the form of removal, because Symbiote+Visionary and Glimpse of Nature can still get there.
3. Aegis of the Gods, when backed up by a protection piece, can easily shutdown targeted burn.
4. Dredge, although hit hard by either Teeg or Priest, still requires some early hate to prevent us from being overrun by Zombies and Ichorids, hence the Surgical Extractions. Explosives seems to take care of any token decks really well, while also having utility in other matchups while also playing nice with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
60 Main
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforege Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
15 Side
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Aegis of the Gods
2 Containment Priest
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Explosives
Any suggestions? Also, are my assumptions wrong, and if so, how wrong are they?
I really like it, very focused. Only thing I would say is you might want some sort of removal in your sideboard that hurts your opponent while buffing your own dudes, such as Zealous Persecution. Not only is it great against True-Name, it hoses Elves and the new Young Pyromancer decks.
That being said, it is a nitpick and otherwise the list looks fine.
Kāvu predator anyone? Wields swords well, gets really big great vs tokens n burn spells. Green sun able
Maverick for life
he's great in the punishing lists.
Appreciate the support. Yea, Deluge has been a staple since I bought them. On paper it looks wrong but my goodness you pull out of dire situations like DnT, Elves, Delver + tokens.
I agree, Deluge is gold. I side it in for virtually any MU outside of regular delver decks, S&T, or certain janky decks.
@EpicLevelCommoner: I disagree with some key points you make (checking your recent post and list)
First, STP is a card that simply keeps you in the game. If you want Decay and STP I totally understand that. But I can't comprehend running AD in place of STP. The color commitments and difference in cmc are both very big deals.
Second, I think leaving home without 1 QPM and 1 Scooze in the 75 is blastphemy. Even successful lists that ran ADs in the main had 1-2 QPM. They are so under-appreciated! I don't see how 2x Gaddock + Safekeeper + Scryb serve as better options against the current meta.
Third, the SB has me scratching my head. I think the hatebear(s) of choice for Maverick are: Thalia + Ethersworn Canonist. Those cards hurt URx Delver big time. They also double-dip as burn or storm combo protection. I've thought about Aegis but can never justify him over Canonist (if anything, he'd be a gut call over Canonist #3 if I need said card). I have to test and see whether Containment Priest makes the 75. Part of me wants her as a 2x in the SB. I am not sure if she's "better" than Oblivion Ring, which is slower yet more applicable.
Because I'm a lousy player, I don't understand every nuance of the card. If Priest simultaneously comes into play with a fatty (Show, Exhume), does she nuke both cards? I'm assuming she stops Hypergenesis and Cascade-effects too. Is she only a preventative/pre-emptive strategy? Landing her T2 against "let's cheat crap into play" is a fantastic move. In this regard she's better than O-Ring.
Last, I am not sold on Maverick running Confidant right now. There's a decrease in wastelands and counterspells (yay!) but an increase in burn (not good because it aids them killing us + bob flips and/or forked bolt 2-for-1-ing bob and a friend). I need to hear an argument justifying the contrary. I can't see Bob being good when there's lot of burn.
@Punishing Maverick: I think you're too vulnerable to combo. Unless you plan to SB 10+ appropriate cards.
He also synergizes pretty well with StP'ing your opponent's fatty.
While I think Punishing Maverick is better suited for the current, warped meta, I question how we can get a functional plan against combo going while not hampering our main strategy.
I'm also wondering about Dark Maverick list not running Bojuka Bog somewhere in their 75 as a tutor target. Seems decent in a meta full of Treasure Cruise.
@EpicLevelCommoner: Everything below 4 SFM seems wrong. Sure, it can be dealt with, but it's a threat they must answer, leaving more breathing room for other, important threats.
Bob doesn't seem that great in a meta full of burn.
Not running at least 1 Pridemage and Ooze main also seems wrong.
Against UR Delver with an active Knight, I'd rather Thespian EOT -> Depths, make Marit Lage than take a turn preemptively killing Treasure Cruise and removing my own blocker.
You have to be proactive with Bojuka and Cruise is live from about turn 3 on...meaning your Knight will land as a 3/3 or 4/4 on turn 3, then you must immediately use it on your turn 4. Just force the concession on turn 4 (Marit kill turn 5). Note that most UR Delver lists aren't running Submerge from what I've seen.
I am a little curious about Safekeeper as a one-of to supplement Mother, since you can GSZ him out. Would you run 3/1 or 4/1 and cut something like Scooze?
@ Swords vs. Decay: I know this will come back and bite me in the butt somehow, but I have no intention of using Swords to Plowshares yet. While Decay does cost a whopping 3 CMC with Thalia on the board, it also that crucial "can't be countered" attached to it, which seems like it'd be key against the Miracles and Delver matchups.
@ Scooze vs. Pridemage: Pridemage could reasonably be fit in here somewhere somehow, but Scooze doesn't seem as good as it has been, especially with a lack of creature-filled decks (i.e. Delver, Combo, Miracles).
@ Scrub: Like I said earlier, Scrub can block a Delver all day long while providing utility for the deck. Paired with an active Mom, the two can wall an opponent for a decent amount of time if played correctly. In fact, I'd say I'd go down to 1 Teeg and up to 2 Scrub since the meta is so Delver infested right now.
@ Containment Priest: Hypergenesis, yes, Cascade, no: biggest thing though is that you have to play him in response to Show and Tell, then show a noncreature to get the most value out of it. That flash is really useful, and even if they show a Sneak Attack, they can't get anything off of it. Only OmniTell completely bypasses it, and only if it shows Omniscience.
@ Bob: Not sure if this is the right call either in all honesty, but I can't think of a better time to use him than when everyone is on a CA arms race.
SFM would be wrong at less than 4 if I were running Batterskull. Stoneforge by itself is just a tutor. A Stoneforge with a Batterskull is an engine that can swing.
Containment Priest is the nuts and will be played mostly in maverick, deadguy, rock sideboard lists. It hits everything you want to without Nomboing the deck. Except for Green Sun and fetching for dryad arbor, but teeg does that already and we have survived without green sunning when teeg is on board. She is going to amazing against dredge, renanimator (which arn't bad matchup typically), Sneak and Show, Elves (yeah!), Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins, Nic Fit (with Birthing Pod strategies), etc. @Warden - remember she has flash.
Aegis of the Gods doesn't quite do enough. Ethersworn and Thalia are you cards to deal with burn. If you really worried about it COP:Red has done me wonders and even really helps against UR delver. For Storm, Gaddock Teeg is your answer.
Rest in Peace is super bad in this deck. It nonbo's the meat of what we are trying to accomplish. Graveyard based stratigies should be a non-issue with Deathrite and Scooze. Reanimator also has the problem of playing against a deck with Karakas in it. Dredge you have to know what to hit, Inchorid and Narcomeba are you go to hits with Deathrite (you can exile the Narcomeba while on the stack) because those are what enable their bridge and dread return, then go for Golgari Grave Troll and the other dredgers. For scooze, you can hit their bridges. Plus Thalia and Wasteland works so much wonders against dredge is prevents them from Careful Study and Faithless looting. There are the explosive turns ones that you just can't stop. But that's why they're a combo deck.
Also, it isn't correct to board in Rest in Peace for treasure cruise strategies. It doesn't stop them from burning you into the face. other cards like Chains of Mephistopheles are great because they also hit their ponders, brainstorms and probes. For UR Delver, you want a knight that can't be bolted and is too big for their swiftspear to crash through. Jitte/Zealous/Toxic Deluge for young pyromancer and removal for delver and early game dudes. Remember, play around daze. Other decks that are jamming in cruise aren't too threatening. Blade and Patriot you have Qasali for Equipment and generally you just have bigger guys. Plus Scavenging Ooze can hit anything in graveyards multiple times without tapping and is mandatory 2 of in any 75.
This is short sighted. There have been lists with 2,3,and 4 SFM that have topped; they just each take different approaches. I did a mild analysis in the Junk thread. BSK is typically the reason to run 4; where as a 2x3 is more of a way to fetch an equip for the sake of fetching the *right* equip and easy CA.
Actually, before I get too entangled in this CA arms war, does Maverick even need to generate CA to keep up with the Treasure Cruise decks?
4 SFM pushes the deck into G&T, which has it merits. I've seen a sweet Capt Sisay Maverick build that relies heavily on Legends. (P.S., Gaea's Cradle, Linvala, Brimaz, Teeg, Thalia, Umezawa's Jitte, Dark Depths, Karakas, etc). I would also play Lightning Greaves in this list with 4 SFM.
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Been considering running Circle of Protection: Red to deal with UR delver, Burn, and have a silly answer to Pro-Natural Order decks. I run an enlighten tutor board, but I am worried about adding the Enlighten Tutor to the deck game 2 and 3 against burn and UR delver. Any thoughts?
On the topic of UR delver, how has Engineered Plague been when coming out of the board. It seems good on the play when they are likely do take Daze out but worse on the draw. Calling Human could be GG, however, the risk of drawing it late or not having the black mana to cast it early enough are things to consider.
Never read she has flash. This makes the card considerably better. I still wish we had anecdotal evidence for how she plays in matches. I hope this isn't another Spirit of the Laybrith situation. Thanks for pointing out what she shuts down. Shit, I may be inclined to run some in the main.
@RIP:
I really disagree here. I think it's a stretch to say DRS and the commonly 1x Scooze are "enough" to cover GY hate. I may be in the minority on this one, but if you're in a room that uses the grave often (and I'm not talking treasure cruise...I'm looking at DRS, Goyf, Reanimator, Dredge, etc), RIP simply shuts them down. I punished BUG delver at Syracuse post sb because RIP hit the table. Double goyfs become cute 0/1's and the mana they depend on through DRS dries up. Sometimes there's stronger than anticipated application for decks like 4C DRS -- running drs/cruise/souls/snapcaster in some capacity. I acknowledge RIP may be a touch too slow against "fast GY" decks (especially if you're on the draw against reanimator). I wouldn't venture to say the card is "bad".
Last event I rocked Nihil Spellbomb and felt it was okay. I go back and forth between RIP/Surgical/Artifact-that-nuke-GY cards. RIP is the strongest IMHO. Again, I don't think it's a "bad call" if you still function as a deck but cripple your opponent. Part of me believes people forget KotR still kicks ass under RIP. It may not swing for 8+, but even as a 2/2, I'll gladly tutor for wastelands and/or attack with exalted triggers. Another related concept is how many of us run additional Teegs to fight Miracles. I wouldn't say Teeg shutting down my own GSZ (which I certainly keep in the deck G2/3) makes him "bad". If Teeg shuts down scary things from Miracles' end of the table, it's valuable despite the collateral damage. Back to RIP. If RIP throws a major wrench in your opponent's gameplan, do you feel it's worth the collateral? Assuming I can land RIP fast enough, I think it's worth SB inclusion.
*On another note, I agree RIP does next to nothing against cruise delver
RIP doesn't even really do that much against your own Knight. Assuming the opponent's deck is sufficiently crippled/slowed, a turn 2 RiP followed by turn 3 Knight wins the game on your turn 6 with a big fat Marit Lage.
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