All B/R update speculation.

[maharis]

BS is a powerful card that helps ALL deck archetypes. You can easily splash blue for just it, but it does not constrain your deck choices.
Delver is a powerful card that forces you into 1 archtype.
Strong cards that help multiple archetypes are not a problem, Strong cards that define/restrict the playing field/metagame are a problem

Delver is a tempo card, but it is not the only tempo creature, it is just to far ahead of the rest of them, banning it would not remove Tempo as a strategy, but it would be likely to change the makeup of Tempo decks so they are not all the same Delver shell with good cards from whatever colors you are splashing.

But Brainstorm is the card that makes Delver so obnoxious. And Brainstorm breaks Terminus, and Treasure Cruise, and arguably Stoneforge Mystic and fetchlands. Brainstorm is the reason a 4-color deck can play TNN and Wasteland and Abrupt Decay. So sure, ban Delver if you want, but eventually WoTC will make another card that is eminently abusable with brainstorm or the tempo shell and we'll be right back where we are now.

I think Delver is far more likely to be banned than Brainstorm, now more than ever. I could see it happening in the next B&R update. However, I do not like the precedent set by banning a creature with no inherent protection or value outside combat in Legacy. Once that happens, the gates are open to have discussions about DRS, SFM, Tarmogoyf, Wirewood Symbiote, TNN, Vendilion Clique, Young Pyromancer, and probably more I'm not thinking of. (I believe TNN is an obnoxious, egregious mistake and is bannable, but I could live with it if it couldn't be hidden from discard at instant speed). That is a road I don't think we want to go down as a format. Even Emrakul and Griselbrand are manageable without the insanity that is Show & Tell. That is why Wizards has always banned enablers instead of the card that's broken by them. Brainstorm is the enabler of the tempo shell.

[Lemnear]

The whole topic with Treasure Cruise is so stupid similar to the Survival dilemma. People think the new addition should be banned (Vengevine) while the problem is the old card (Delver), which becomes more and more oppressive with any future printing. If they ban TC, we just can wait for the next card which pushes Delver archetypes beyond 25% of the metagame.

But Brainstorm is the card that makes Delver so obnoxious. And Brainstorm breaks Terminus, and Treasure Cruise, and arguably Stoneforge Mystic and fetchlands. Brainstorm is the reason a 4-color deck can play TNN and Wasteland and Abrupt Decay. So sure, ban Delver if you want, but eventually WoTC will make another card that is eminently abusable with brainstorm or the tempo shell and we'll be right back where we are now.

I think Delver is far more likely to be banned than Brainstorm, now more than ever. I could see it happening in the next B&R update. However, I do not like the precedent set by banning a creature with no inherent protection or value outside combat in Legacy. Once that happens, the gates are open to have discussions about DRS, SFM, Tarmogoyf, Wirewood Symbiote, TNN, Vendilion Clique, Young Pyromancer, and probably more I'm not thinking of. (I believe TNN is an obnoxious, egregious mistake and is bannable, but I could live with it if it couldn't be hidden from discard at instant speed). That is a road I don't think we want to go down as a format. Even Emrakul and Griselbrand are manageable without the insanity that is Show & Tell. That is why Wizards has always banned enablers instead of the card that's broken by them. Brainstorm is the enabler of the tempo shell.

Delver is the card that makes tempo-strategies to obnoxious, but is a tool for a wide array of decks to acchieve consistancy.

[Lord Seth]

Brainstorm is the reason a 4-color deck can play TNN and Wasteland and Abrupt Decay.

Actually, I think Deathrite Shaman is the bigger reason for that.

[Dice_Box]

The whole topic with Treasure Cruise is so stupid similar to the Survival dilemma. People think the new addition should be banned (Vengevine) while the problem is the old card (Delver), which becomes more and more oppressive with any future printing. If they ban TC, we just can wait for the next card which pushes Delver archetypes beyond 25% of the metagame.

I have been thinking, since it is so rare to ban something in Legacy, I wonder if Wizards will take this rare moment of action to react to past issues. I feel like they try and just let the format run itself and hide their own hands behind their back in the hopes that if they do not touch it it will go away. Basically, they have a culture now of inaction so the sudden push to action may allow then to overcome whatever fears they have and ban other cards that are issues that they would not have touched otherwise.

[maharis]

Actually, I think Deathrite Shaman is the bigger reason for that.

I don't think any deathblade player would keep a sketchy hand because it has DRS like they would if it has Brainstorm. The fact that you can cast Brainstorm at any time and have three cracks at your next land or first action card makes it supremely more powerful than DRS. Especially in a control deck with a huge lifegain hammer as its main threat, and in a format where anyone who lets you untap with a DRS is probably losing anyway.

[Megadeus]

I don't think any deathblade player would keep a sketchy hand because it has DRS like they would if it has Brainstorm. The fact that you can cast Brainstorm at any time and have three cracks at your next land or first action card makes it supremely more powerful than DRS. Especially in a control deck with a huge lifegain hammer as its main threat, and in a format where anyone who lets you untap with a DRS is probably losing anyway.

I would actually like to see the percentage of gamesthat I won when I untapped with a deathrite.

[Nielsie]

I just don't get what is the problem with blue being the most played colour - flavor aside, of course. I guess people are more casual than I have thought. In general when talking about competitive gaming, you should play with what you think is the most powerful deck and that's what people are doing.

So what? I want to play a Shop deck in Legacy but for some strange reason, some jerk decided to ban Shop and all Moxes in Legacy... That's not fair! In general when talking about competitive gaming, you should play with what you think is the most powerful deck and that's what people are doing.

I simply don't understand your reasoning...

Now that I think of it, you know what is funny? It's more likely the DCI would unban Mox Sapphire than banning Brainstorm or Delver! Wouldn't that be treat!

[maharis]

I would actually like to see the percentage of gamesthat I won when I untapped with a deathrite.

Exactly. You think the UR delver player is casting Delver on their first turn if you cast Deathrite? No, they're bolting the shit out of that guy. That alone should indicate what makes a creature truly powerful. A conditional 3/2 with no ETB ability and no combat damage trigger isn't really all that scary. Eventually any competent deck builder will kill that thing because they play removal or win with their combo within 6 turns. That is, of course, unless the Delver is backed up by pure gas at every draw step. Enter Brainstorm, the best hand-fixing spell ever.

[Lemnear]

Current top 8 decks:
1º Miracle Control
2º UR Burn
3º DeathBlade
4º Team America
5º Elves
6º Patriot
7º Reanimator
8º OmniTell

I'd want to see top 8 decks like this:
1º Miracle Control
2º UR Burn
3º Jund
4º Goblins
5º Elves
6º Death and Taxes
7º Reanimator
8º ANT

I have no clue where you have taken the top list from, as MTG TOP 8 has different numbers for the past two months and decks like OmniTell, Reanimator and Patriot are nowhere close to the top spots of played decks in the last two months, but stuff like D&T, Jund or Infect.

no love for your second list either. I think Goblins deserve, in no way, a spot on that list, mainly for being a deck, which refuses to adapt to a changing metagame since like 10 years (see: Running Wasteland + Ports if you have a significant higher manacurve than your opponents do and still not running control elements against combo) and people still try to take the deck as a measurement for format health.

[testing32]

I have no clue where you have taken the top list from, as MTG TOP 8 has different numbers for the past two months and decks like OmniTell, Reanimator and Patriot are nowhere close to the top spots of played decks in the last two months, but stuff like D&T, Jund or Infect.

no love for your second list either. I think Goblins deserve, in no way, a spot on that list, mainly for being a deck, which refuses to adapt to a changing metagame since like 10 years (see: Running Wasteland + Ports if you have a significant higher manacurve than your opponents do and still not running control elements against combo) and people still try to take the deck as a measurement for format health.

I snagged that list from tcdecks-tier decks from October of this year.

The second list is an example, not to be taken list for list. Replace that with any non-blue deck of your choice for all I care (rock, team italia, mud, maverick, green and taxes, zoo, etc).

And I realize that you are fighting hard for delver over bs because you still want to play TES. Something has to change though because TES is in a bad way right now (and I really like that deck). I'm not sure getting rid of bs would hurt it as much as it would hurt miracles and delver. Might need to switch to ANT over TES b/c of chrom mox but storm should be more competative than it is now.

With so much blue, storm has very few free wins like it used to have.

Edit: and I don't know if anyone else noticed but tcdecks has rug split into UGr threshold and UGr fairies. It really should be 4th on that list.

[FieryBalrog]

How would this look like without the hyperbole? Of course your arguments sound solid to you if they are based on imaginary figures, which you even admit.

In the other eternal format, vintage, pretty much every deck tries to play as many of the formats broken bombs as possible. Legacy is no different. Stagnant format with a dominating deck is surely problematic but that doesn't seem to be the case here. People can't even figure out if the best deck is blue burn, miracle control or some of the tempo decks. Or even elves or monowhite. Also, new cards find their way to decks all the time, so to speak.

Ironically, Vintage actually has a more diverse meta because there Shop and Bazaar exist. Making two strong pillars of non-blue strategies which can support aggro, combo and control.

Meanwhile in Legacy there is no alternative pillar to Brainstorm period. There is, uh, Elves, and the increasingly diminished D&T, but those are just particular decks, not broad deck construction ideas, and are not even dominant decks at that.

I've been playing Legacy long enough to remember when Aether Vial was an actual pillar of Legacy deck construction, so were the Sol Lands, even Life from the Loam was reasonable at one point to build around. Giving alternatives to blue (of course, the best vial deck itself was usually Merfolk, but R&D has always adored blue, so that's not surprising). All of those are increasingly crap. Yes, you see a non-D&T Vial deck every other month, hooray.

[Barook]

I have been thinking, since it is so rare to ban something in Legacy, I wonder if Wizards will take this rare moment of action to react to past issues. I feel like they try and just let the format run itself and hide their own hands behind their back in the hopes that if they do not touch it it will go away. Basically, they have a culture now of inaction so the sudden push to action may allow then to overcome whatever fears they have and ban other cards that are issues that they would not have touched otherwise.

Wizards would probably ban one card at best.

Making the Banned list as short as possible is a noble goal (especially considering how they went full retard on the Modern bannings), but the function of the Banned list is keeping the format healthy, not being a list as short as possible. A short banlist does jackshit if the format goes to hell in the meantime. Think about how much broken (blue or blue-related) shit Wizards has thrown into the format since Innistrad.

[Lemnear]

And I realize that you are fighting hard for delver over bs because you still want to play TES. Something has to change though because TES is in a bad way right now (and I really like that deck). I'm not sure getting rid of bs would hurt it as much as it would hurt miracles and delver. Might need to switch to ANT over TES b/c of chrom mox but storm should be more competative than it is now.

With so much blue, storm has very few free wins like it used to have.

I don't care much about TES per se; I like the storm mechanic in general and so I don't have a problem with playing ANT, DDFT or TNT instead. The point is that decks like DDFT/SneakShow/TES/etc have plenty of "dead" combo elements they will stumble over without Brainstorm available. ANT has a much easier time compensating a potential loss of Brainstorm than the beforementioned decks and I don't see it as desirable that these decks all extinct, just to make the Delver-autopilot a bit weaker and reduce Miracle-Brainstorms to Jace. I doubt that banning brainstorm would actually "help" storm.

[maharis]

I don't care much about TES per se; I like the storm mechanic in general and so I don't have a problem with playing ANT, DDFT or TNT instead. The point is that decks like DDFT/SneakShow/TES/etc have plenty of "dead" combo elements they will stumble over without Brainstorm available. ANT has a much easier time compensating a potential loss of Brainstorm than the beforementioned decks and I don't see it as desirable that these decks all extinct, just to make the Delver-autopilot a bit weaker and reduce Miracle-Brainstorms to Jace. I doubt that banning brainstorm would actually "help" storm.

But like you said upthread:

I think Goblins deserve, in no way, a spot on that list, mainly for being a deck, which refuses to adapt to a changing metagame since like 10 years (see: Running Wasteland + Ports if you have a significant higher manacurve than your opponents do and still not running control elements against combo) and people still try to take the deck as a measurement for format health.

Storm pilots will have to adapt like you implore goblin pilots to do. There will likely be a storm deck in Legacy if that's what you like playing. To truly compensate for the power of Brainstorm you'd have to ban way more than just Delver and it is just so much cleaner to put one card on the list than to constantly wait for them to ban the next card that's broken by Brainstorm and is taking over the format like TC has.

What about all the people who liked playing green toolbox decks when Survival was banned? Should they have just taken Vengevine so Survival could continue until the next broken graveyard creature?

That's not how WOTC has made choices in the past and not what they should do now.

[testing32]

I don't care much about TES per se; I like the storm mechanic in general and so I don't have a problem with playing ANT, DDFT or TNT instead. The point is that decks like DDFT/SneakShow/TES/etc have plenty of "dead" combo elements they will stumble over without Brainstorm available. ANT has a much easier time compensating a potential loss of Brainstorm than the beforementioned decks and I don't see it as desirable that these decks all extinct, just to make the Delver-autopilot a bit weaker and reduce Miracle-Brainstorms to Jace. I doubt that banning brainstorm would actually "help" storm.

I agree that it's tough to say but I look at modern's storm success as a guide. They didn't have bs or LED and it was wildly successful b/f heavy bannings. I also think it would be hard for storm to be positioned poorer than it is now.

I don't think that banning brainstorm would be the end of combo. Less blue means more free wins for combo decks.

[Megadeus]

I agree that it's tough to say but I look at modern's storm success as a guide. They didn't have bs or LED and it was wildly successful b/f heavy bannings. I also think it would be hard for storm to be positioned poorer than it is now.

I don't think that banning brainstorm would be the end of combo. Less blue means more free wins for combo decks.

They also have significantly less cheap and free counter magic/mana denial to fight through.

Fiery Balrog makes an excellent point about shops and bazaar in vintage providing non blue pillars of the format while brainstorm is seemingly unopposed

[wonderPreaux]

I agree that it's tough to say but I look at modern's storm success as a guide. They didn't have bs or LED and it was wildly successful b/f heavy bannings. I also think it would be hard for storm to be positioned poorer than it is now.

I don't think that banning brainstorm would be the end of combo. Less blue means more free wins for combo decks.

This is wildly poor context, saying "storm without brainstorm works in modern" is ignorant because modern also doesnt have cards like force of will, wasteland, top, daze, proper duals etc. also, modern storm relies a lot on goblin burst and not fizzling off of cantrip chains, which legacy cards can do a lot to counteract. saying a lower-power version of a deck is successful in a lower power format isnt a very good indicator of how a gimped legacy storm would be in legacy. as i mentioned earlier in the thread, as much as brainstorm is cantrip 1-4 of 8-12 in tempo shells or w/e, it is THE card that lets a lot of combo decks be competitively powerful for a number of reasons. whether or not someone argues for brainstorm being in the format or not would likely be inseparably linked to that person's preference for combo vs. aggro/midrange creature stuff (see the "desired" top 8 post above that includes Goblins, Jund and DnT yet weirdly deems ANT as a DTB despite losing a powerful card. lolwut?).

[Lemnear]

I agree that it's tough to say but I look at modern's storm success as a guide. They didn't have bs or LED and it was wildly successful b/f heavy bannings. I also think it would be hard for storm to be positioned poorer than it is now.

I don't think that banning brainstorm would be the end of combo. Less blue means more free wins for combo decks.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion about storm at all. Just lets not forget that Modern and Legacy work different and have other predators. Banning Brainstorm would not end combo, but I can asure you that combo, as a whole, would take a bigger hit than Delver.

Storm pilots will have to adapt like you implore goblin pilots to do. There will likely be a storm deck in Legacy if that's what you like playing. To truly compensate for the power of Brainstorm you'd have to ban way more than just Delver and it is just so much cleaner to put one card on the list than to constantly wait for them to ban the next card that's broken by Brainstorm and is taking over the format like TC has.

What about all the people who liked playing green toolbox decks when Survival was banned? Should they have just taken Vengevine so Survival could continue until the next broken graveyard creature?

That's not how WOTC has made choices in the past and not what they should do now.

Without a doubt they would need to adapt and they do. If storm is unplayable in Legacy for some reason: shit happens.

I don't remember a CARD that was ever "broken by brainstorm" the way Survival would have stayed broken by Loyal Retainers + Emrakul even if they banned vengevine. Brainstorm does not break Delver; it's the cantrip/counter/removal core which is the problem by itself that makes the Delver auto-flip and you can't ban the whole core just because WotC fucked up with the condition Delver flips.

It's like printing an Elf for 1 green mana with an EtB effect of drawing 3 cards, if you control 2 more green creatures and think the condition is any restricting lawl

[Zombie]

What about all the people who liked playing green toolbox decks when Survival was banned? Should they have just taken Vengevine so Survival could continue until the next broken graveyard creature?

There's a big difference between the playability of the replacements in these cases. Survival => Fauna Shaman is abominable, Brainstorm => Ponder+Preordain hurts but you still have functional, really strong cards. Now we have GSZ of course, which is great, but the range of creatures that can be fetched is a bit too low to make it a suitable replacement for ETB Toolbox.dec

[Bed Decks Palyer]

With BS ban, wouldn't TES position improve compared to ANT, which is right now imo the better storm deck? Imagine going off and being stuck with useless chaff, isn't it better to have 4x BW that needs no hellbent?
And good point on "storm pilots also need to adapt", it was cruel, but I like it. It's not like only the Goblin pilots should start to tinker with their steam age deck...
Speaking of that: it's pretty annoying how the "you need to adapt" very often meant "quit playing non-blue" so far, as most of the non-blue lists were either too weak at all, or at least to weak to insertbogeyman, so the competitive players switch to more powerful decks naturally, and that'S leading them to Islands, as that's where the power is at least since always.

The downsides are obvious, but I'm going to repeat them once more as it looks like some people missed the previous posts; mostly it's about the pricing chokehold of blue duals, the convergent deck design and thus convergent gameplay experince, the swingy-bomby nature of Legacy and if I'm missing something, correct me.
There are hardly any pillars left (be it SotF, Vial, 8Tombs or whatever), altough I must admit that there's archetypical difference in decks played (Storm combo, UWx control, Uxx Delver/DRS tempo, W(g) prison, Show and Win), but these cannot be compared with Bazaar/Drain/Shop (do I have it correctly?) as those are... umm... lets say "engines" for the lack of a different word (no they're not engines, but that's how to circumvent the "pillar" word), as those promote different strategy and gameplay experience with their own subsets of archetypes/decks. (ok, it's not exactly true that Bazaar feeds anything else than Ichorid, but there are what, three or four major builds of Shop...) And tis makes me a bit sad that I hadn't jumped into the Vintage boat back when it was a little bit more feasible, as it seems that Vintage might be much more interesting format than Legacy.

On the bright side... If the people are willing to accept Underground Sea as one of the pillar of the format (simulating Shop now even price-wise... yeah, and I don't even care to pretend that I know how much Shop costs neither will I check that), the other pillar being Trop/Volc with the last pillar represented by Tundra, and if the Storm/Delver/Terminus triade is what makes the people thrilled, than there's the pro of a really stable (static? stationary?) format where there's little to explore, little to forget about, little to chase for, a simple format that lives of 250 cards and ignores the 19750 remaining ones.

Legacy: the Old Schooling