All B/R update speculation.

[HrishiQQ]

Me being a Vintage player was the reason behind my question. Mishra's Workshop is powerful and broken enough that it serves to keep blue in check. Similarly with Bazaar of Baghdad. Are there any such options to enter the Legacy cardpool if WOTC are unwilling to change the Delver-goodstuff shell?

[testing32]

It would be rougher for TES b/c they can get some really awful draws like 2x chrom mox. Also, with more action, it's easy to get multiple pieces stuck in your hand.

I'm fine with trading BS for unbanning some help for combo.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Me being a Vintage player was the reason behind my question. Mishra's Workshop is powerful and broken enough that it serves to keep blue in check. Similarly with Bazaar of Baghdad. Are there any such options to enter the Legacy cardpool if WOTC are unwilling to change the Delver-goodstuff shell?

I don't know. I played lots of games with RUG against DnT and I'm not sure that it's that bad matchup. Depends on your flex suite, but with 6-7 burn spells and some Snare to stop Thalia, SFM and RiP, it isn't a lost cause.
Elves are so so, because they are pretty fast and they can kill you out of nowhere with you sitting with Rough in your hand waiting for the right moment.
Ichorid was a solid deck, but I haven't touched it in years. One may argue that it's a blue deck, it revolves around several powerful spells and effects that got in mana/activation cost.
I'm not sure what's left. Burn is a deck, right? So Burn...

[Star|Scream]

What about banning brainstorm but unbanning mystical tutor?

[testing32]

I was thinking like mind's desire or bargin. Something that delver couldn't use. They are both busted but you can hate storm, unlike brainstorm.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What about banning brainstorm but unbanning mystical tutor?

Both cards are busted.

I was thinking like mind's desire or bargin. Something that delver couldn't use. They are both busted but you can hate storm, unlike brainstorm.

Mind's Desire is dangerous card, imo, yet it's pretty unreliable, too. I guess it's abit harder to build around it than around PiF or AdN, but it may give some free "oops I win" due to good luck.
Bargain? With Grislebrand in format, YB might be unbanned. Then again it's easier to cast and use. You cannot draw 19 cards of Grisly...

Mind Twist (and yeah, it's not about BS anymore...) is another card that neither Storm nor Delver might use. Even with DRS in picture, you'll be Twisting for what, four cards at most? On turn3+? Laughable... namely once the opponent plays BS in resp. (so it is about BS once again) to hide TC and refuel the hand.
Nice. Time Walk.

[Barook]

What about banning brainstorm but unbanning mystical tutor?

No, blue doesn't need more help.

I don't think Mystical Tutor is safe. Aside them the combo shenanigans that still work, it also got Miracles and TC to make it even more busted.

[HrishiQQ]

I was thinking like mind's desire or bargin. Something that delver couldn't use. They are both busted but you can hate storm, unlike brainstorm.

I like this actually. Mind's Desire is busted in half but I have huge doubts whether Desire.dek is actually better than the Delver shell (that sounds crazy to even type..)

As the above poster said, unless you generate a certain amount of storm it can be quite unreliable. Generating 4UU is also a little harder without access to Tolarian Academy, although I have no doubt you could design a deck to be able to do it consistently.

More of a personal thing.. but Mind's Desire has the best feeling ever when casting it. It feels like you are opening Christmas presents each time you flip a card over.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think combo would suffer a lot even if BS got banned. I mean, TC and DTT are two new pretty good card in any combo that isn't named AnT. Blue.dec losing a little of popularity would also probably make the archetype better positioned in general.
And also, Bargain and Desire are pretty safe unbans i think. Yes, Bargain is busted, but it cost freaking six. In this format for 6 mana get you sneak attack +2 activations, and you need just 1 to win the game. Entomb-> reanimate or SnT grizzly are better anyway. Grizzly is so much better if u ever get to untap it isn't even funny. Desire is in a similar ballpark, even if it still scare me because of the uncounterable aspect that make hate cards for it pretty niche. But in general, big, costly spells, in a format full of cheap countermagic, targeted discard, and tax effects hardly scare me as much as pseudo-recalls and cheap evasive beaters.

[bruizar]

Well, eldrazi's are being hardcast in this format. Minds desire sounds like playing with fire. Bargain is a 1 mana combo. Its just one mana more than ad nausea , and ad nauseam Is played. Also, academic rector can help put it into play via cavern of souls (omniesciemce if its in hand, bargain if its not in hand, depending on what u have) and the cabal therapies further protect you. The difference with ad nauseam is that ad nauseam must be played in a storm deck since it only works until end of turn. Bargain can be slow rolled by control decks.

[Megadeus]

Good luck casting twist for anything higher than x=3 in a format of wasteland, daze, spell pierce and force of will. And that is only a simple 3 for 1 which at this time can be achieved simply by paying 1U and delving

[bruizar]

Metalworker likes twist. Ub tezz can ramp to 5 mana on turn 2. Losing 4 cards by turn 1 on the draw sucks. Probably save to come off though. Nice card for nic fit.

[maharis]

Metalworker likes twist. Ub tezz can ramp to 5 mana on turn 2. Losing 4 cards by turn 1 on the draw sucks. Probably save to come off though. Nice card for nic fit.

Mind Twist doesn't affect the board... Why am I using my 5 mana on turn 2 for that instead of just dropping Jace or Tezz? Why am I Metalworking into that instead of Wurmcoil Engine? Similar with Nic Fit. Can't get it with GSZ, no impact on board. Give me Siege Rhino.

Mind Twist is a safe unban that is laughable, but it won't affect Legacy a bit, I'm afraid.

I really think people are underestimating how important Brainstorm is to delver decks. Take Bob's UR list, replace Brainstorm with Preordain and goldfish a couple games. Your hand gets clogged with lands and Squires very quickly. The deck is still good, but it's not a juggernaut. That's what taking Brainstorm out does.

[bruizar]

Your logic is flawed. Treasure cruise doesnt affect the board either, yet it still wins. If # of permanents would lead to higher # of wins, BW tokens would be a deck to beat, and tendrils of agony doesnt exist in tournament play?

[bruizar]

Also, everyone can stop discussing the banning of brainstorm. Brainstorm is the single card that defines eternal play more than anything else (yes, including power9 and force of will). When BS was restricted in vintage, many people stopped playing the game.

[maharis]

Treasure Cruise can the board, because you draw cards that you can use to affect the board, like Lightning Bolt to punch the last 3 through. And if you draw more lands or cantrips, you lose. Discarding cards from your opponent's hand doesn't affect the board at all.

Tendrils of Agony affects your life total. It's also a 1-2 of as a combo finisher. It's not like people are playing the effect in any other form outside of, like, Siege Rhino (Which does affect the board, of course).

Your Brainstorm argument is handwaving, and it's what nedleeds always refers to. Brainstorm only defines eternal play (and especially Legacy) because it's beyond ubiquitous. It is so powerful relative to the rest of the cardpool that it's by far the most played card in the format. The fact that it was restricted in Vintage should only cement how powerful it is, and people shouldn't be shouted down for suggesting a ban of a card that is that powerful and format warping, and re-broken every time Wizards messes around with the design space of a zone Brainstorm affects.

[btm10]

Mind's Desire is dangerous card, imo, yet it's pretty unreliable, too. I guess it's abit harder to build around it than around PiF or AdN, but it may give some free "oops I win" due to good luck.

As much as I like Storm and want it to be good, Desire seems way too dangerous. It's not like we have the option of just restricting it and having it be a psuedo-uncounterable super draw7 - Desire into Desire is a real possibility if the card were unbanned, and it's unbelievably hard to not win once that's happened.

Bargain? With Grislebrand in format, YB might be unbanned. Then again it's easier to cast and use. You cannot draw 19 cards of Grisly...

Maybe it's safe? I think Storm would still want Ad Nauseam because it costs less and can draw more cards than Bargain, but unleashing Bargain could lead to some absurd deck pretty easily. I guess some kind of Junk Nic Fit combo deck? Seems bad, though.

Mind Twist (and yeah, it's not about BS anymore...) is another card that neither Storm nor Delver might use. Even with DRS in picture, you'll be Twisting for what, four cards at most? On turn3+? Laughable... namely once the opponent plays BS in resp. (so it is about BS once again) to hide TC and refuel the hand.
Nice. Time Walk.

The only argument against Mind Twist is the fact that someone would run it in Pox and have the occasional Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Mind Twist opener, which would be the least fun thing ever once both players had 3 card hands and were in topdeck mode for an entire game. Since the odds on that one are fairly low, I'm fine with Twist being in the format and unplayed.

Seriously though, Earthcraft would be nice. I can't even imagine something banworthy that could be done with it at this point.

[Lemnear]

With BS ban, wouldn't TES position improve compared to ANT, which is right now imo the better storm deck? Imagine going off and being stuck with useless chaff, isn't it better to have 4x BW that needs no hellbent?
And good point on "storm pilots also need to adapt", it was cruel, but I like it. It's not like only the Goblin pilots should start to tinker with their steam age deck...
Speaking of that: it's pretty annoying how the "you need to adapt" very often meant "quit playing non-blue" so far, as most of the non-blue lists were either too weak at all, or at least to weak to insertbogeyman, so the competitive players switch to more powerful decks naturally, and that'S leading them to Islands

I doubt it would improve, simply because the case of drawing Chrome Moxen or multiple Tutors can't be solved elegant, while ANT can simply burn through their cantrips unless all they have in their hand are discard, Rituals, Infernals and value draws like Ad Nauseam or PIF themselves.

"[insert deck] needs to adapt" is fine, but I also understand that it sometimes does not work and decks vanish. There is still no reason most Goblin players continue to play the deck like a tempo shell with Wastelands/Ports against opposing 1-2cc threats and without any tools like discard to battle combo.

"Adapt" has nothing to do with playing blue. Adapting to the metagame, means analyzing your own problems against certain decks and finding solutions. The combo problem for Goblins can be adressed via stuff like Karakas + Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, Discard, whatsoever, but I don't see anything serious tried or established. Blue isn't always the solution if you face a problem.


Edit:

As much as I like Storm and want it to be good, Desire seems way too dangerous. It's not like we have the option of just restricting it and having it be a psuedo-uncounterable super draw7 - Desire into Desire is a real possibility if the card were unbanned, and it's unbelievably hard to not win once that's happened.

Maybe it's safe? I think Storm would still want Ad Nauseam because it costs less and can draw more cards than Bargain, but unleashing Bargain could lead to some absurd deck pretty easily. I guess some kind of Junk Nic Fit combo deck? Seems bad, though.

Desire is stupid. Revealed Rituals make +3/+5 mana if removed with Desire, it's uncounterable, totally life independent and ... most important ... can be played as a playset unlike Ad Nauseam.

Bargain is an option to run 4 MB "Ad Nauseams" without affecting your deckbuilding in terms of Self-inflicted damage due to High cmc cards in the deck. There would be no reason to durdle with Burning Wish/Grim Tutor for a higher threat-density in storm as you can run 4 Infernal + 4 Bargains. I don't have to mention naturally drawing Bargain, is in fact even a mana cheaper than Chaining infernal for your one-off Ad Nauseam.

[bruizar]

Treasure Cruise can the board, because you draw cards that you can use to affect the board, like Lightning Bolt to punch the last 3 through. And if you draw more lands or cantrips, you lose. Discarding cards from your opponent's hand doesn't affect the board at all.

By your own logic, if TC can affect the board without being a permanent or a card that interacts with permanents, then mind twist also affects the board because it affects treasure cruise by potentially discarding it.

The fact that mind twist can lead to manaless hands on turn 1 means it DOES affect the board. Even though it's an indirect effect, treasure cruise is more indirect. Treasure cruise has a fair shot of grabbing 3 cards that are neither permanents nor cards that interact with the board. Mind Twist has a 100% shot at grabbing a permanent or a card that interacts with the board EXCEPT against manaless dredge, because the very nature of this game requires you to have permanents in your opening hand or be forced to mulligan.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Blue isn't always the solution if you face a problem.

Yet quite often it is.
The only real non-blue, non-hate deck left in ETB is Elves, right? DnT exists only becasue of how inbred the metagame is, and its whole plan is to make the environment as hostile as possible for the decks that rely on five real lands and 32 cantrips. (Ok, ok...)

Everything else is of lower tier (one may argue that it doesn't mean anything, as in Legacy even Tier2 decks are pretty powerful, especially if they're designed to fight the meta, e.g. Blood Moon decks, Pox, Burn), and it's fairly known fact that every % you gain by not playing blue cantrip shell (resistent to and able to play Choke, Cotv or w/e, higher threat density, md/sb material like Chains of M., etc.) are lost due to the unreliability of the non-blue shells that force he players to a) build extremely consistent decks that have little to none flexibility or b) build a flexible pile that lacks consistency. As long as RUG is winning against say MUD, a deck designed to beat the blue metagame, something is wrong. And while the obvious bombs are Ancient Grudge and 5/6 Goyfs, the real working horses are the cantrips that find the end-game cards (and in case of BS they also unmulligan).

Feel free to use any other Ux vs. Anti-U matchup as an example, jst that I played the mu recently and was surprised how easily I won unless there was a turn1 CotV@1.