For now this card does not seem worth running in dnt. It just helps in a lot of already good match ups and the elves match up would still probably be bad. It also does nothing against ur delver, which is probably the most popular deck in legacy right now.
Has anyone done more testing with the Land Tax build?
It seems when I lose with this deck, it's most often because I just don't draw enough lands. I hate Horizon Canopy too, in the last event it lost me two games costing me two rounds versus UR because it wasn't a Plains. Even worse, one of those was in the top 8 for a Lotus.
I'd think 2 Land Tax is probably the maximum though. Has anyone had any other results?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
That's a sick interaction with Flickerwisp. Too bad Priest stops you from Vialing in Flickerwisp. :(Originally Posted by cursecatcher
still doesnt affect tokens.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
This is a pretty lazy argument. I also don't think you understand how important Green sun's Zenith and Natural Order are to Elves.
Anyway, this is my 75 for the GP, barring any minor tweaks:
11x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Flickerwisp
3x Serra Avenger
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Restoration Angel
SIDEBOARD
2x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
2x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gut Shot
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Enlightened Tutor
The only thing I hate is the loss of Mangara, but there's too much Delver right now to really justify him, I think.
If anyone has comments/questions, feel free to chime in.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Forgive me if this doesn't belong here, but a very interesting deck top 16'd SCG Columbus. It is very much so in the Twilight Zone between Maverick and Death and Taxes:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
3 Judge's Familiar
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Choke
1 Banishing Light
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Bizzare... But cool
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I know there were rumblings of a green splash recently, and now that I take a second look at this deck I think it is more Death and Taxes with a green splash than it is Maverick (no Knight etc).
I really wonder how good Containment Priest was for him all day. I'm still definitely not sold on the card yet.
One thing I kin of like is that every single equip he's running (all 4!) gain life. This seems pretty important with a 4x Canopy maindeck.
The list is now fixed.
It's still weird that he didn't run a SoFaI.
For those of you who are running COP red in your sideboards I was curious if you brought it in during any match ups besides burn. For example does it come in against UR Delver?
Last edited by Beeeeebs; 11-10-2014 at 04:53 PM. Reason: typo
I brought it in verses UR Delver. In a recent tournament, one match versus them I never drew it. In the second, I drew it in a game where I was stuck on three lands and had a Thalia in play. Of course, had I drawn in in the third game where I had 9 lands in play I would have won very easily.
I need to try it more to see if it's really worth it, or if I should just go for all Firewalkers instead. My problem with only Firewalker is that Price of Progress can still wreck you pretty easily.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Thank you, I am curious because I do not personally like Firewalker or any of the creature options fo UR Delver and I am not sure if the COP affects their game plan enough to come in. I'd be very interested to know if one COP and one E Tutor swings the match at all.
I had 1 Firewalker and 1 COP with 1 Tutor. It was plagued by muligans all day, so again, variance makes it hard to draw a firm conclusion at this point. If I ran D&T at the GP or any other large event in the near future, I would probably run 2 Firewalkers and 1 COP with 1 Tutor as well. At least, until I can test more and see if there is some other configuration I want to run. My problem with Firewalker is that sometimes it just comes too late. COP is gas in the late game.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I have read a few people mention recently how much they have liked Circle of Protection:Red. I gotta say that my last experience with that card is very long ago. But the consensus back then, and what I myself experienced, was that having to keep mana open - and not just one - was a real problem. Games against Burn and UR Delver don't tend to go long, so the mana you spend to cast the CoP and then the mana kept open is like a huge tax on your ability to maneuver. I don't know how players are having positive experiences, and I would love to hear about them.
As a red player on the other side, I recall winning through a CoP by using my burn to keep their creatures down until the white player left too few lands open for some reason. Then I would unload Lightning Bolt to force him to tap his last land, then Price of Progress, Price of Progress, Fireblast, game!..or something like that. These spells are instants too. That means that the white player has still more headwinds. As the burn player, you can spend your mana at the end of your opponent's turn to force CoP activations. Then untap to go to town. D+T on the other hand likes to spend its mana on its own main phase (Port is terrible here), so it loses the battle of maneuverability.
Kor Firewalker really feels like a gem here. How has it been bad exactly? If you want something to tutor for, I would expect Warmth to serve you better.
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We drove about 7.5 hours from st. louis to play. I sold cards instead. We talked about it in the car, and i told him vs a meta full of bolts/plows/cruises, plus running spirit of the labyrinth, SoFaI might be worse off than a SoWaP. I was right, multiple opponents couldn't resolve cruises because it would lethal them.
Edit: also we wanted 4 containment priests in the list but couldn't get our hands on all of them. last round he fought vs dredge with containment priest. considering this is one of my main testing partners, and i've been playing dredge about a decade now, he knew exactly what to do. the matchup was just laughable. Blake's not on the source, sorry. The deck is literally D+T splashing for Choke and Teeg. I hope this helps.
While I can't speak from anywhere near the amount of experience that can offer incontrovertible proof of anything (except perhaps of my meager skill at Magic) I noticed the following in the few games I played versus UR: games ran long, Firewalker when drawn late was not spectacular, COP drawn early was terrible.
Now, how often will all these things happen? I don't know, I need to test a great deal more to say exactly. You point about COP is 100% correct, if the Burn player gets time to set up, he or she can overwhelm your mana. Then again, if the Burn player gets time to set up, he or she can overwhelm a Firewalker as well. I think both have some very critical flaws, which is why I felt like I wanted both effects. If they nut draw you and kill you quickly, there is a fair chance that neither Firewalker or COP would save you, which is why I focused my thinking on how to grind out games versus them.
I am not trying to say that Firewalker is bad, in fact, I was advocating adding a second to my own list. I am not (yet) convinced that COP is bad. In all the games I've played versus UR, they tend to empty their hands quickly. If we keep pressure on them, they shouldn't have the time needed to go completely over the top of the COP, or at least, that's what I am thinking. Fact is, I don't have enough data to be certain at this point. I've played Warmth in the past and there is a good chance you are right in that it might be a better overall choice (think of having both a Firewalker and Warmth out does make me kind of happy in my pants).
Why I chose COP over Warmth was the grindy games where I wanted to be sure I could win races by nullifying the chance they had of just top decking a Price and melting my face. This is probably because I purposely choose to not play around a Price by not playing lands. I will not hold all my non-basics, besides a useless Wasteland, just because there is the possibility of a Price. This is probably a critical misplay, but I feel like often Price wins the game for them, lands held back or lands played out, because they do run Artifact removal, so leaning to heavily on Vial can be dangerous. Often I make bad choices as to what to play around, so this might be a fundamentally wrong way to approach the matchup. I do know that they often expect decks to stop playing lands in face of the threat. In my mind I want to make them have it every time rather than not play my game.
In a way, COP was part of the reason I was interested in a Land Tax build, in over a year of playing this deck, I still never have enough Plains. This might just be cascading bad ideas, but I want to try it, I think.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Hey, first time poster here. I lurk around a lot but for some reason never commented in this board! I visit the MTGS DnT thread though.
I tested two Kor Firewalker in the sideboard yesterday against UR Delver and Burn. I can't say they're that good in the UR matchup because the gain life only triggers when a red spell is cast, and they don't even run that many, most of their spells are blue card manipulation/cantrips. Sure the pro red can block their... Swiftspears, and that's it. I'm not saying it doesnt have any effect, but in the UR Delver matchup their usefulness isn't as big and dramatic as to warrant a sideboard slot, and certainly not two. Against URW and Grixis flavors? Even less. Against Burn the card is quite magnificent, comes early and can certainly stabilize the board by himself. I actually like Firewalker more than CoP:Red in the Burn matchup because, as Finn said, having to leave mana open is something you certainly can't afford to do in a game where the early turns determine the outcome of the whole game. CoP:Red also only prevents damage to you, not to your creatures, and sometimes it's more important to keep that Stoneforge Mystic alive so she can drop Batterskull, or that Thalia alive so she can swing with Jitte. But I still run one CoP in my sideboard, because it's tutorable (against Burn) and only requires one slot, so it's very easy to add to a sideboard and kinda does its work, but you certainly can't rely on it.
At the end of the day, the best way to deal with Burn is still the old method of Mom into Thalia into Jitte swing for lots of life. Burn isn't even a particularly hard matchup, but UR Delver certainly can take a series off you if you keep a greedy hand. The MVP of the matchup is still Thalia, followed by Sword to Plowshares. I think the best way to pad that matchup isn't the red hate route, but rather board in more creature removal. They don't pack enough burn spells to win the game alone, and out creatures often force the opponent to waste bolts into them. The problem is that turn one Delver that flips and starts hitting for 3 extremely fast. Keep in mind that DnT only packs 4 removal spells in the maindeck and that's certainly not enough for the matchup unless you get the nut draw of 3 StPs in the first 2 or 3 turns, and that isn't going to happen every time. I actually like Sunlance a lot in the matchup, it hits flipped Delvers and Swiftspears and Young Pyromancers, and doesn't force you to pay life like Gut Shot or Dismember does. Also Vial is way more important that it seems, as with a 2 or 3 counter Vial untapped you force them to play more conservatively and it increases your chances of stretching the game until you can stabilize.
In my experience I would still side SoFaI out even when the color protections are very good in the matchup, as the Sword is way too slow and can't come out and equip in turn 4 without a Stoneforge Mystic. The bolt and the extra card are very nice but it doesn't gain you life and it's going to be narrower than Jitte every time so it never gets fetched as a first choice, and in a fast game you want to be as efficient as possible with the free slots in your maindeck. The deck doesn't need many changes against UR, mine are usually -3 Revoker -1 SoFaI -1 Resto -1 Dust Bowl +2 Sunlance +3 SotL +1 CoP:Red. SotL gets bolted immediately but it's still 3 less damage to your face and if it doesn't get bolted it can slow down the game considerably.
Would it not be worth considering running an extra Jitte? sure, we have tutors, but as Frenadol mentioned, our best plan vs burn is to stick the stick to a stick and just jab until we have enough counters to be happy, so giving ourselves another shot to hit it seems decent. They're probably also planning on removing at least 1 jitte/batterskull over the course of the game so having backup could actually be relevant. Its also obviously insanely good vs UR.
vs UR: I always found extra removal in the SB to be exactly what I needed vs the old UWR and BUG Delver; I was running Path but now UR is running enough basics to make that a bad idea so I guess we're back to Sunlance, although I'm not stoked about it. Removal is good vs Burn too as you pretty much HAVE to get rid of Eidolon or you're just toast.
None of these options seem like Slam Dunks, unfortunately...
The problem I have with relying upon equipment is that most Red-based decks are sideboarding some number of Smash to Smithereens, or other Artifact removal spell. The reason I like Firewalker and either COP or Warmth is that they really don't have any answers to them. Well, mono-Red would have no answers. I played against someone actually playing Vapor Snag in a UR deck, but that seems really uncommon. There is no way for them to interact with a White enchantment, besides trying to counter it.
What is a little frightening is that some of these UR decks are now playing Electrickery in the board. That is definitely not good news for us. We'll have to see how they develop their boards going forward and perhaps change accordingly. I feel like the UR matchup is really critical right now and that will probably be the most played deck at the GP.
It seems like no one really wants to talk about it, but I am not making it to the GP because of real-life things, so this Friday I am thinking of trying a Land Tax build. Anyone feel like a number other than 2 Land Tax would be better? Or is running it just a bad idea?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
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