[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant, I've been wondering, how do you handle storm combo mirrors with no Thoughtseize in board? Given how bad EtW is, I tended to swap it for Tendrils or PiF, but with no discard spell to Wish for, I think the only viable card to side in would be Tendrils. It's just too awkward having nothing really impactful to Wish for if you side the PiF in and have no Seize. As I've tested more, I've founded boarding in Tutor to be hit-or-miss, but Tendrils seems just ok as well.

Also, for you or anyone else using the more current list, does anyone else side out a discard spell against control, to open it up as a Wish target? I've enjoyed it, especially in games where I'm waiting on Decay or bringing Swarm in anyway.

I would side in Tutor as the games go longer if they're not over in a turn, making PIF a great wish target.

I side out a Therapy because Empty is bad against Miracles making Therapy less important. Duress is also a much higher value as it guarantees hitting the problematic card on turn 1/2 (One of the few match-ups where the is relevant). My current plan against Miracles is -1 ETW, -1 Therapy, -2 Chrome Mox, -4 Ponder, +3 Decay, +2 Swarm, +2 Pithing Needle and +1 Tendrils. I prefer to keep on the mox rather than a single ponder as this is a match-up where Ad Nauseam shines, I want to make damn sure after it resolves that I win.

[Lemnear]

I love it! But I hate the Thoughtseize, so I've put the Cabal Therapy as a wish target.

There is no reason to not just play a Duress in the SB then, if you hate the lifeloss.

Duress requires less play skill?
Therapy is the best card as Wish target?

For a Silence list it also makes sense not to play a full set if you often get into trouble with the fact that Probe is the only peek effect you have apart from burning your first Therapy. That was for me the main reason not to run 4x Therapy in my old Silence list.

We have 2-3 Duress, 4 Probes and even the option to Wish for Thoughtseize/Duress. Thats 7-10 peek-effects. In addition to that we still have our rule of thumb: "Name what your fear". Especially under the assumption, that this is an EtW-Deck, you absolutely want to draw Therapies asap to make a quick EtW deadly.

Silence is a weak argument for reducing Therapies, as the value of the white instant in the current metagame is not that good for (hopefully) known reasons.

I don't know why you are cutting the Gemstones now that Wasteland is on it's minimum.

Unless you also decide to run Basics, replacing Gemstones with Fetches/Duals has nothing to do with Wasteland. Increasing the number of lands was a reaction to Daze and Wasteland which also had positive side effects for mulligans, but if you run Gemstones or Duals/Fetches doesn't matter. You can even say, that the reduction of Wastelands in the average metagame makes only running Tropical/Bayou paired with additional shuffle effects more appealing than several Gemstones which deplete, offer no shuffle and reveal your decks identity, because your sole green manasource gets rarely destroyed then anyways. Ergo, cutting Gemstones is no reaction to Wastelands, but rather to our reduced color requirements, with the goal to increase card quality in combination with our cantrips.

[wonderPreaux]

I would side in Tutor as the games go longer if they're not over in a turn, making PIF a great wish target.

I side out a Therapy because Empty is bad against Miracles making Therapy less important. Duress is also a much higher value as it guarantees hitting the problematic card on turn 1/2 (One of the few match-ups where the is relevant). My current plan against Miracles is -1 ETW, -1 Therapy, -2 Chrome Mox, -4 Ponder, +3 Decay, +2 Swarm, +2 Pithing Needle and +1 Tendrils. I prefer to keep on the mox rather than a single ponder as this is a match-up where Ad Nauseam shines, I want to make damn sure after it resolves that I win.

What prompted the switch to boarding in Xantid Swarm? Is it just to increase threat density and "make them have it"? Being the more risk-averse guy, I tend to leave Swarms in the sb, since StP is pretty popular to leave in, given fear of Pyromancer or Swarm.

[Bryant Cook]

What prompted the switch to boarding in Xantid Swarm? Is it just to increase threat density and "make them have it"? Being the more risk-averse guy, I tend to leave Swarms in the sb, since StP is pretty popular to leave in, given fear of Pyromancer or Swarm.

Pyroclasm out of Miracles against storm? I have not seen this be a common thing at all. I like the ability to switch protection, making wish a disruption spell in one of the few match-ups we need it against. While adding in one additional protection spell that just happens to be amazing against Pierce/Flusterstorm and Sensei's Diving Top.

Miracles shouldn't be leaving in STP, I could see a few Terminus but definitely not 'Clasm.

[wonderPreaux]

Pyroclasm out of Miracles against storm? I have not seen this be a common thing at all. I like the ability to switch protection, making wish a disruption spell in one of the few match-ups we need it against. While adding in one additional protection spell that just happens to be amazing against Pierce/Flusterstorm and Sensei's Diving Top.

Miracles shouldn't be leaving in STP, I could see a few Terminus but definitely not 'Clasm.

Pyroclasms? I was referring to Young Pyromancer, which some ANT players use. I sometimes see Miracles players keeping in 1-3 StP, as a function of paranoia or lack of cards to side in. I'll give Swarm a try, see how it turns out.

[Lemnear]

Sleepless night and crazy ideas ... doing math for them at 1am ...

[Tengo_Hambre]

So here's what i'm planning to play for GPNJ:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress

4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard:

3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Void Snare
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor

I know the 4 Chrome mox is pretty unorthodox, and while i admit it's bad to draw multiples, they still get you a free storm count in a pinch, and more importantly they're awesome to hit off of Ad Nauseam (which i find myself going for very often). It seems like a small change but i feel like I almost never brick off of Ad Nauseam while i did much more often (relatively) with the 3 duress/3 mox split.

Also looking for some thoughts on the manabase. i'm contemplating cutting a gemstone for a Polluted Delta, maybe 2. Also not sold on the Bayou; i keep too many 1 Land+Cantrip hands to not have access to blue (hence sticking to the Trop. card availability would be an issue too if i wanted to switch to the bayou)

I'm curious to get some miracles sideboarding advice (and sideboarding advice in general-I've read the OP but would like to get more specifics and other opinions); i tend to over-sideboard against them and am at the point of wondering if it might be better to just not sideboard at all and try to get in underneath them (which would require leaving in EtW; something i know Bryant is adamantly against.) Is this a reasonable plan on the play? on the draw i think i have to sideboard since they're going to hit counterspell mana before i can go for it most of the time. I'm also on the fence about how to get a second pithing needle in there. right now, i'm thinking i might go to a 2-2 split with abrupt decay/needle since Abrupt Decay makes Ad Nauseam noticeably worse and strains the manabase more too. Thoughts/Advice are appreciated! Also, Bryant, do you have any consistency issues when you cut all 4 ponders against miracles? i feel like cutting all of them would make us really susceptible to variance (though i also have no idea what else to cut to make room for all the sideboard cards targeted at the matchup. -1 EtW, -2 Mox, -1 to 2 Therapy...can we maybe afford to cut a mine and go to 12 land? maybe trim a Gitaxian probe as our worst cantrip and since we're cutting therapies down too)

[Bryant Cook]

Pyroclasms? I was referring to Young Pyromancer, which some ANT players use. I sometimes see Miracles players keeping in 1-3 StP, as a function of paranoia or lack of cards to side in. I'll give Swarm a try, see how it turns out.

Apparently I read what I want to read.

[Bryant Cook]

Also, Bryant, do you have any consistency issues when you cut all 4 ponders against miracles? i feel like cutting all of them would make us really susceptible to variance (though i also have no idea what else to cut to make room for all the sideboard cards targeted at the matchup. -1 EtW, -2 Mox, -1 to 2 Therapy...can we maybe afford to cut a mine and go to 12 land? maybe trim a Gitaxian probe as our worst cantrip and since we're cutting therapies down too)

The deck is very redundant, the match-up is a slow one if you don't open with the nuts. You'll have time to sculpt your hand naturally or adjust with Probes and Brainstorms. Not to mention, most of the time in that match-up Ponder digs for protection.

I also, don't see the point in people posting lists from a long time ago asking what we think. There's a reason Lemnear and I (along with others) have moved on from Silence, City of Brass/Mana Confluence, 4 Chrome Mox, Grapeshot and some of the other ideas that have been thrown around in the last week. I think most of it is "Hey, the GP is coming up and this is what I played last time." Which isn't awful, but don't be afraid to try out some of the updates either, we made them for good reason and have sound logic behind it.

[Lemnear]

So here's what i'm planning to play for GPNJ:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress

4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard:

3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Void Snare
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor

I know the 4 Chrome mox is pretty unorthodox, and while i admit it's bad to draw multiples, they still get you a free storm count in a pinch, and more importantly they're awesome to hit off of Ad Nauseam (which i find myself going for very often). It seems like a small change but i feel like I almost never brick off of Ad Nauseam while i did much more often (relatively) with the 3 duress/3 mox split.

Bricking off Ad Nauseam with 3 Moxen is pretty unusual if you have 13+ life left anyways. The problem with Moxen is that you nearly never want to see them in your hand as they are a virtual mulligan taken which isn't really appealing if you need to generate 6+ mana from your cards turn 1/2/3 in addition to optional protection and the needed business-spell. (P.S. I'm working on a solution for this atm)

Also looking for some thoughts on the manabase. i'm contemplating cutting a gemstone for a Polluted Delta, maybe 2. Also not sold on the Bayou; i keep too many 1 Land+Cantrip hands to not have access to blue (hence sticking to the Trop. card availability would be an issue too if i wanted to switch to the bayou)

I discussed the up- & downsides of Tropical/Bayou in this thread. As usual, the credo is: Take from this thread what you think helps/applies and ignore the rest. If you prefer Tropical for the reason of keeping a one-lander plus cantrip, do it :)

I'm curious to get some miracles sideboarding advice (and sideboarding advice in general-I've read the OP but would like to get more specifics and other opinions); i tend to over-sideboard against them and am at the point of wondering if it might be better to just not sideboard at all and try to get in underneath them (which would require leaving in EtW; something i know Bryant is adamantly against.)

I don't see a general problem of EtW against Miracles if you can minimize their library manipulation to find a sweeper (aka flashback Therapy for their Ponders/Brainstorms/SDTs), but you have to open up slots for your SB cards. Abrupt Decay is a 2cc card and painful to flip for Ad Nauseam if you have to stop revealing cards at 4 life to not die the sudden death by flipping EtW. If you remove the EtW, you can savely keep going with your Ad Nauseam down to two life which means drawing about 2-4 cards extra to find what you are looking for.

So, removing EtW is not only relevant because it's Value is waxing and waning with your opponents cantrips, but because of creating a balance of cmc for Ad Nauseam.

Is this a reasonable plan on the play?

I fear not. Your opponent on miracles will keep a very defensive hand games 2 & 3 anyways to drag out the game. If you don't have the nuts in your opener, the Game will go down the drain within 3 turns if you don't board countermeasures.

on the draw i think i have to sideboard since they're going to hit counterspell mana before i can go for it most of the time. I'm also on the fence about how to get a second pithing needle in there. right now, i'm thinking i might go to a 2-2 split with abrupt decay/needle since Abrupt Decay makes Ad Nauseam noticeably worse and strains the manabase more too.

The matchup isn't about blitzing your opponent T1/2 so you have time to make landdrops. You absolutely need 3-4 Decays to get out from the countertop-lock and, as described before, the cmc issue with Ad Nauseam is adressed if you board balanced.

You seem to think too hard about Ad Nauseam overall if you run 4 Moxen and even cut down Decays just because of cmc. I'm totally fine with casting a non-lethal Ad Nauseam, mindtwist my opponents Hand and ship the turn with a packed grip of 7 cards to cast the PIF-loop once I untap. There is no reason to force Ad Nauseam into ToA.

Thoughts/Advice are appreciated! Also, Bryant, do you have any consistency issues when you cut all 4 ponders against miracles? i feel like cutting all of them would make us really susceptible to variance (though i also have no idea what else to cut to make room for all the sideboard cards targeted at the matchup. -1 EtW, -2 Mox, -1 to 2 Therapy...can we maybe afford to cut a mine and go to 12 land? maybe trim a Gitaxian probe as our worst cantrip and since we're cutting therapies down too)

I guess it's fine to chop the Therapies if you bring in Xantids in their place.

[vercadium]

Pyroclasms? I was referring to Young Pyromancer, which some ANT players use. I sometimes see Miracles players keeping in 1-3 StP, as a function of paranoia or lack of cards to side in. I'll give Swarm a try, see how it turns out.

I agree that Xantid Swarm is mediocre in the match-up as I too find the Miracles players keeping in removal (definitely Terminus at the very least) in-case of Young Pyromancer/Xantid Swarm.

That said, I think the decision isn't based on how good Xantid Swarm is, but how necessary Ponder is - it's certainly possible that I would prefer 2 Ponder in their place to find Duress etc, but there's no denying that Xantid Swarm is the more impactful card and for that reason alone it's probably preferred. Miracles also has access to so much manipulation that while usually it would be excellent making some of their cards "dead" by having 0 targets for removal, they are able to filter those away when not needed.

[Asthereal]

We have 2-3 Duress, 4 Probes and even the option to Wish for Thoughtseize/Duress. Thats 7-10 peek-effects. In addition to that we still have our rule of thumb: "Name what your fear". Especially under the assumption, that this is an EtW-Deck, you absolutely want to draw Therapies asap to make a quick EtW deadly.

Silence is a weak argument for reducing Therapies, as the value of the white instant in the current metagame is not that good for (hopefully) known reasons.

You asked for reasons. I stated the reasons I could think of.
I didn't say I agreed with the choices.

I would probably go for 4x Therapy, 3x Duress main with 2x Thoughtseize side.
That's the package that feels best.
But right now I am sort of hooked on a different deck...

[Lemnear]

You asked for reasons. I stated the reasons I could think of.
I didn't say I agreed with the choices.

I would probably go for 4x Therapy, 3x Duress main with 2x Thoughtseize side.
That's the package that feels best.
But right now I am sort of hooked on a different deck...

Yeah, and I added the points which shatter those possible reasons. I just tried to support your post, showing that there are no reasons to not run 4 Therapies in the MB as an EtW deck. I did not try to correct you, pal :)

P.S. sent a wall of text to the FB think-tank. Too bad that I can't afford to run foils of the new cards in testing ... actually I doubt ANYONE can ;D

P.P.S. yes, it's a hint. ;P

[Lemnear]

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girl, children of all ages,

We ran Chrome Moxen as a neccessary evil for years and they are just horrible in terms of providing an acceptable mana/investment-ratio for playing around softcounter with the need to maximize the mana you can generate from your starting hand to make T1/2/3 combos possible, which is the reason I looked for alternatives. As we have no propper replacement for the inital mana, I pondered about picking up the idea of "floating mana into Ad Nauseam" Bryant toyed with in form of Cabal Ritual again, as it also helps to overcome softcounters like the currently omnipresent Daze and known annoyances like Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst.

The previous issue was the increased converted manacost of running Cabal Rituals alongside the 4cc-sudden-death EtW and 8 Tutors/Wishes, which made Ad Nauseam flips pretty bad despite the floated mana, so I looked for options to get a serious manaboost to play around Daze, support the SB Infernal playlines, speed up our mana while removing the Moxen but avoid to increase the average manacosts. Greedy, isn't it?

In order to play without additional, initial manasources, I evaluated the MB EtW and think we can consider to cut it atm, not only because of the sweepers played in SBs, but because I feel that being able to go down to 2 life with Ad Nauseam instead of 4 and the extra cards drawn as a result, possibly outweights having a 6-mana-playline with the Infernals. Ergo, I moved the EtW to the SB to board it back if we play against a deck where we want the maximum of cheap, quick playlines (Like Burn or D&T), but for the maindeck, with all the Daze-decks in the current meta, I consider it a bit of a waste to grab EtW instead of Ad Nauseam with Infernal Tutor, especially with now more potent manasources in the deck:

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

As you eagle eyes have spotted, I cut the Moxen to squeeze in 4 City of Traitors for testing how the removal of the 4cc card and the chance to float mana into Ad Nauseam (like U.Sea, CoT, DR, LED, IT) affects flips.

The key is to treat City of Traitors not like a land, but as a colorless ritual obviously. Compared to Cabal Ritual it doesn't need your graveyard to provide the maximum manaboost, and doesn't deal any damage if revealed to Ad Nauseam. Mind, that more than 1/3 of your deck is 0cc and the biggest cmc you can reveal to Ad Nauseam is 2. That means that flipping 15+ cards to Ad Nauseam is pretty common now which comes handy, if paired with a floated red or black mana to get around the need for more initial manasources to reveal via Ad Nauseam. Thr additional benefit of our colorless ritual in testing is that it makes it pretty easy to power through Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst as well as supporting playlines with the SB Infernal Tutor.

Thanks for your attention. Further testing results will follow.

[Bryant Cook]

I'd like to note that Cabal Ritual was mainly played as a way to justify moving the Infernal Tutor to the sideboard as a Wish target and then was found to not be needed. The idea wasn't really for floating mana, it was to provide enough to cast Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam which the list you're proposing can't do anyway.

• Something I'd be worried about is that this list is incredibly slow against decks like Burn/Death & Taxes where you need to win quickly. Making me wonder why it's better than ANT?
• You took away our four mana turn one Belcher approach which slows down the deck aside from losing the Chrome Moxes.
• Without an LED its going to be difficult to become Hellbent with 17 lands in the deck.
• Initial mana sources will now be at a premium because you're going to want red and black when going off, but you have City of Traitors instead of a potential colored source. This is also assuming you don't need to cast a Brainstorm or Ponder that turn.
• This list is a one-trick pony. When the Ad Nauseam route is cut off, it'll be much more difficult to win since it has nothing else going on in the main deck making Infernal Tutor even worse.

These are my initial thoughts.

[Lemnear]

• Something I'd be worried about is that this list is incredibly slow against decks like Burn/Death & Taxes where you need to win quickly. Making me wonder why it's better than ANT?

yes, your options for B+R turn 1 are reduced by 3/60 (ignoring the factor: color-matching imprint), but I don't see numbers of these belcher-mode-victims in any relation to the presence of blue Daze-matchups. I currently test 2 EtW in the SB to board one back if you are paired against one of these decks. Overall, I did not have the impression during testing that the deck got generally slower especially under the aspect that you get two mana from a single card instead of just 1 mana out of two cards. I'll keep an eye on that.

• You took away our four mana turn one Belcher approach which slows down the deck aside from losing the Chrome Moxes.

yes, I took away a chance of 1/60 to have the EtW naturally in your hand.

• Without an LED its going to be difficult to become Hellbent with 17 lands in the deck.

possibly. We need Brainstorm or LED to get lands out of our hand if they block our Infernal Tutor. Pretty much the same problem like having a hand filled with cantrips: we need to play them.

• This list is a one-trick pony. When the Ad Nauseam route is cut off, it'll be much more difficult to win since it has nothing else going on in the main deck making Infernal Tutor even worse.

if the AN is cut off, that means that our opponent had several turns to deal damage to us. It's not that EtW was ever an appealing option to cast turn 3+ even if you still can IT->Wish->EtW with that setup in cornercases. If we face the problem of low life we can take the same routes as before: PIF or Natural Chain.

These are my initial thoughts.

[Bryant Cook]

The whole responding within a quote is awful. I can't just reply to it, great.

You can Belcher mode blue decks, we've been doing it for years. Win before things come online or before they can cantrip into their counters/answers. You also opted not to respond with why that list is better than ANT, it's certainly not as fast as standard TES lists.

That's not what I meant, I was referring to a Tutor effect being on the stack with four mana. Your argument on FB was that we usually just wait for another turn to cast Ad Nauseam anyway, which I generally don't do. I'm fine with making Goblins and then forcing them to have the answer through Cabal Therapies*– another card that just became worse without the Empty the Warrens in the main. Four mana into ETW is great against these Burn/UR Delver/ Death and Taxes match-ups. Which are worse with your suggested list.

At 17 lands you don't expect to have Hellbent issues? Even with Brainstorm and LED, Brainstorm is going to draw you into more lands. Current lists don't have as much of an issue because of Mox helping become hellbent in the games where we've already used a Brainstorm and don't have access to an LED. Your Brainstorms now are going to be used to make sure you can win without a land in your hand instead of sculpting/protecting cards.

Not necessarily in these UR Delver/Burn match-ups that are very popular at the moment. PIF or Natural chain won't be easy without tons of time to play out all of those lands and the lack of Chrome Mox to increase storm, the life loss because of Probes becomes a liability in these matches.

[Asthereal]

yes, I took away a chance of 1/60 to have the EtW naturally in your hand.

It's more than 1/60. It's actually 12% chance to draw it in a 7 card opening hand.
But Bryant is right. Infernal > Empty is our most aggressive start, and the bigger reason to play Empty main.

Chrome Mox is just bad. Any possible replacement is worth a look.
Perhaps you should just keep the old list and go -3 Mox, +3 City. See what happens.
No need to remove Empty as well. At least, none that I see.

(PS. Edited this post like five times. Sorry to those who read earlier versions. I'm not sharp today.)

[JamieW89]

No more chant-effects, no more gold lands, discussion about basics and cabal rits and now the cutting of chrome moxen, I can certainly approve of all these developments :D.
However, I can't imagine 4 City of Traitors actually working very well here, I've tried 1-2 Crystal Vein (and 2 City of Traitors once) a couple of times in ANT (which has less restrictive IMS requirements) and it wasn't all that great.

[Howishotgun]

This may sound bad, but why not try out mox opal or mox diamond instead of chrome mox? They are mostly to get the mana after an ad nauseam. With mox diamond you usually will hit at least 1 land to make it work. While mox opal might not have enough artifacts for it to fire. Mox diamond could also help out with getting hell bent when you have multiple lands in hand with tutor. Sounds like a fringe moment but it might work instead of chrome mox.