Gold Digger [UWr Delve Control]

[afedelejr]

What do.you guys think of Ajani Vengeant as a 1 of?

[Swing4Five]

Ajani Vengeant is another expensive finisher option in a sea of them, and it doesn't stack up particularly well against it's competitors. Batterskull is reusable, Keranos and Baneslayer are immune to being attacked or Bolted.

If you're going to throw out suggestions like Ajani, a little bit of thought provoking text into why you think it's viable over the previously discussed options would be encouraged.

[alphastryk]

I believe that the idea is Blue Elemental Blast is marginally better, as it can't be misdirected to misdirection (where hydroblast can be when it's in counterspell mode).

I think REB is the choice in the board instead of another Pyro out of respect for card-name hosers (e.g. Meddling Mage, Cabal Therapy).

Those are exactly the reasons :)

[goodolrock]

Ajani Vengeant is another expensive finisher option in a sea of them, and it doesn't stack up particularly well against it's competitors. Batterskull is reusable, Keranos and Baneslayer are immune to being attacked or Bolted.

If you're going to throw out suggestions like Ajani, a little bit of thought provoking text into why you think it's viable over the previously discussed options would be encouraged.

I've tried Ajani, and he's not terrible. He is an option for lifegain and removal, his +1 can give you some extra turns to get to a sweeper or a moat. If you immediately +1 him, he's out of bolt range (to the same extent that Baneslayer is, at least) - if you can manage to play around the bolt. If not, he effectively gains you 6 life (because he ate the bolt instead of you) and removes a guy from their board.

However, he doesn't offer as much lifegain as Baneslayer and he's not very good at closing the game out on his own (+1, +1, -2... i guess you'll get there eventually :P). I certainly wouldn't cut another wincon for him; if I was going to keep playing him, it'd be in addition to the BSA and the 3 Jaces.

[goodolrock]

I've tried Ajani, and he's not terrible. He is an option for lifegain and removal, his +1 can give you some extra turns to get to a sweeper or a moat. If you immediately +1 him, he's out of bolt range (to the same extent that Baneslayer is, at least) - if you can manage to play around the bolt. If not, he effectively gains you 6 life (because he ate the bolt instead of you) and removes a guy from their board.

However, he doesn't offer as much lifegain as Baneslayer and he's not very good at closing the game out on his own (+1, +1, -2... i guess you'll get there eventually :P). I certainly wouldn't cut another wincon for him; if I was going to keep playing him, it'd be in addition to the BSA and the 3 Jaces.

Also, another reason he can't fully replace BSA is the quote from Weissman above - you want them to have to leave in creature removal, or be able to punish them if they board it out.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

I hate to be that budget guy, but without Moat does this deck still have legs? Is Ghostly Prison worth considering as an option?

[mote5]

I hate to be that budget guy, but without Moat does this deck still have legs? Is Ghostly Prison worth considering as an option?

Try Young Pyromancer. He is a sort of soft Moat like effect that can quickly morph into a win condition. I've greatly improved my UR Delver matchup since making this change.

[phazonmutant]

I hate to be that budget guy, but without Moat does this deck still have legs? Is Ghostly Prison worth considering as an option?

Also lists with Stoneforge appear to be doing well too. I posted a list a few pages back, and there are some other.

I'm definitely interested to try Pyromancer. It takes fewer slots and plays well into the deck's velocity. It works so well in vintage, why not here?

[mote5]

Also lists with Stoneforge appear to be doing well too. I posted a list a few pages back, and there are some other.

I'm definitely interested to try Pyromancer. It takes fewer slots and plays well into the deck's velocity. It works so well in vintage, why not here?

I'm still fiddling, but I've been testing this:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Young Pyromancer
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

SB
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear/Tear
1 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict

Might be getting ambitious with the Talrand, but the Pyromancers have been pretty amazing. There isn't really room, but a SB with Stoneforge would be interesting, maybe even with a Jitte main.

[Swing4Five]

The problem with Young Pyromancer in this style of list is that it doesn't provide any form of inevitability unless it survives. The big finishers have some resilience against removal and conditional counterspells. Stoneforge is a two for one if it resolves and they kill it, and is plus a card and a huge threat if left to live. If Pyromancer gets bolted, immediately, you're just out of luck. Izzet Delver puts so much immediate pressure on the opponent that they have to fire off removal ASAP on everything they see, Pyromancer is another must-answer threat, fitting in with their theme.

I have been doing some testing with this list, and I will be battling with it at the GP. I'm currently set on the Stoneforge Mystic win condition, partially because I enjoy the Batterskull + Academy Ruins inevitability, and partially because I sold my Moat at Eternal Weekend after owning one for 5 years and never actually registering one in a tournament...

Here's what I currently have locked:

Card Manipulation:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

Interaction:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice
3 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will

Lifelinking:
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

Mana:
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins

The only card really unexplored here is the Lightning Bolt. I wanted another piece of early interaction against the creature decks that wasn't completely dead against combo or opposing Jace decks.

This leaves me with 2 open maindeck slots. The cards I am currently looking at are 2 Vendillion Cliques, which would basically just be opening up the sideboard slots they currently occupy, or two of the following:
1 Preordain
1 Lightning Bolt
(in addition to the one already in)
1 Izzet Charm
1 Snapcaster Mage

For the Sideboard, I currently have the following 13/11 locked:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Vendillion Clique
(unless I have 2 main, in which case, there would only be one here)

Which leaves me trying to fit the following 8 cards into these 2 slots:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
(again, these would be in addition to the ones locked into the board)
1 Engineered Explosives
(for when you want to go up to 3)
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Containment Priest

The Pyroclasm, EE and Staticaster all fill similar roles, so are probably fighting for the same spot. The same goes for the 3rd Cage vs 1st Containment Priest.

If you guys have any input on why these last slots should be filled with anything in particular, let me know.

[mote5]

The problem with Young Pyromancer in this style of list is that it doesn't provide any form of inevitability unless it survives. The big finishers have some resilience against removal and conditional counterspells. Stoneforge is a two for one if it resolves and they kill it, and is plus a card and a huge threat if left to live. If Pyromancer gets bolted, immediately, you're just out of luck. Izzet Delver puts so much immediate pressure on the opponent that they have to fire off removal ASAP on everything they see, Pyromancer is another must-answer threat, fitting in with their theme.

I can definitely see your point, and I'm still wavering on the kill condition myself, but I would like to add a couple points about YP. You don't expect the first one that lands to win the game. He often comes down on turn three with a land untapped to either Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce their removal, fire off a removal spell of your own, or Brainstorm to generate at least one token. If your turn three YP eats a bolt and makes a token he has done his job. Running multiple YPs allows you to draw them at different parts of the game. The first one is a road bump, but the second or third one you cast will eventually run wild after firing off a big delve spell. The Talrand and Jace's are also there as strong mid to late game bombs. I might try a Misdirection instead of the third Counterspell to help better protect YP. I also am sporting a Karakas to protect the MD Talrand and the SB Cliques. I will admit that a lot of my wins against UR Delver are after stabilizing at very low life totals, so Stoneforge or at least some equipment main would make things a little more comfortable.

[phazonmutant]

I can definitely see your point, and I'm still wavering on the kill condition myself, but I would like to add a couple points about YP. You don't expect the first one that lands to win the game. He often comes down on turn three with a land untapped to either Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce their removal, fire off a removal spell of your own, or Brainstorm to generate at least one token. If your turn three YP eats a bolt and makes a token he has done his job. Running multiple YPs allows you to draw them at different parts of the game. The first one is a road bump, but the second or third one you cast will eventually run wild after firing off a big delve spell. The Talrand and Jace's are also there as strong mid to late game bombs. I might try a Misdirection instead of the third Counterspell to help better protect YP. I also am sporting a Karakas to protect the MD Talrand and the SB Cliques. I will admit that a lot of my wins against UR Delver are after stabilizing at very low life totals, so Stoneforge or at least some equipment main would make things a little more comfortable.

Exactly this. I'm imagining the first is a speed-bump. One of the best answers to a Pyromancer (besides a wrath) is another Pyromancer! Stoneforge and Pyromancer both win unchecked, but Pyromancer gives more of an advantage if he immediately eats it, assuming you cast him and are able to make a token or two. Tutoring Batterskull is card advantage, but it's difficult to quickly stick a Batterskull if Stoneforge dies. A couple of chump blockers should buy plenty of time to get pull ahead with Dig and bombs. Of course, this is all theorycrafting at this point, haven't tested yet.

I would think that a Baneslayer would be a perfect complement to Pyromancer - the things that efficiently answer Pyromancer don't answer Baneslayer and vice versa. Your opponent has the choice of leaving in Plows and just dealing with the tokens (assuming he has Plow!), bringing in Electrickery, Charm, etc and losing to Baneslayer, or having pile of removal in their deck.

[Megadeus]

Sounds like you guys need more plateaus in your deck!

[alphastryk]

Exactly this. I'm imagining the first is a speed-bump. One of the best answers to a Pyromancer (besides a wrath) is another Pyromancer! Stoneforge and Pyromancer both win unchecked, but Pyromancer gives more of an advantage if he immediately eats it, assuming you cast him and are able to make a token or two. Tutoring Batterskull is card advantage, but it's difficult to quickly stick a Batterskull if Stoneforge dies. A couple of chump blockers should buy plenty of time to get pull ahead with Dig and bombs. Of course, this is all theorycrafting at this point, haven't tested yet.

I would think that a Baneslayer would be a perfect complement to Pyromancer - the things that efficiently answer Pyromancer don't answer Baneslayer and vice versa. Your opponent has the choice of leaving in Plows and just dealing with the tokens (assuming he has Plow!), bringing in Electrickery, Charm, etc and losing to Baneslayer, or having pile of removal in their deck.

That definitely makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how many slots you can use up for Pyromancer. 2? 3?

[Jon]

Sounds like you guys need more plateaus in your deck!

Said that last night, Didnt go over too well. I really think the deck is powerful. The real fisting in all our testing of UR VS UWr Control was Swiftspear.

[phazonmutant]

That definitely makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how many slots you can use up for Pyromancer. 2? 3?

Yeah no idea. I would imagine at least 3 to start? It's much better in multiples, so 4 might just be correct. It's still more compact than the Stoneforge package. I'm thinking of testing this maindeck tonight:

4 Young Pyromancer
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Dig Through Time

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Council's Judgment

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

It might be the Preordain / Cruise slots should be more removal - this list cuts EE and Clasm but Pyromancer should help control the board. Speaking of EE, it doesn't play very well with Pyromancer - it doesn't make tokens, kills tokens in its most common mode - so I cut it and the Ruins. That leads to the manabase - having a bunch of early red spells in addition to double-white spells is going to make the mana noticeably worse. That's a big reason to not play Council's Judgment, but I think it's worth it. Also based on mana constraints, Pyromancer will be a turn 3-4 play more than turn 2. That led me to include the third Volcanic.

[mote5]

Said that last night, Didnt go over too well. I really think the deck is powerful. The real fisting in all our testing of UR VS UWr Control was Swiftspear.

At times I want to fetch up a Plateau, but with Mountain, Plains, and a utility land already in the deck, Counterspell is a little iffy in the early going. I'd also want to play top with that 4th non blue source.
Bolts help against Swiftspear, but you should initiate that fight on your own turn so if they pump it out of reach, at least it isn't crashing into you as a 3/4. Also, Engineered Explosives is really good in this match up.

[alphastryk]

@Phazonmutant - I really like the look of that list. Council's Judgment is a necessary evil without EE unfortunately.

Edit - once you're fully 3 colors like that, I don't think you can afford a second plains. I'd rather have another fetch I think.

[thefreakaccident]

Has anyone lost because of having pyroblasts vs non-blue opponents game one?

[Svknoe]

It has been bad once or twice. You can often get rid of in some manner. More importantly, it is great versus the good decks. I dislike having them versus elves, but other than that the non-blue decks seem to be good matchups either way. I also play swords to plowshares even if it sucks versus combo. Having two dead pyroblasts versus nonblue decks is mostly fine.