How -did- you beat MUD? Just ramp up quick and go off because you die to lodestones?
I agree with Ralf -- from what I saw looking around (and from Tim's experiences), we would have been very, very happy to make Day 2.
So here's what I think happened:
I predicted a combo winter upcoming as a response to the blue decks engaging in Battleship. I also gambled that this wouldn't happen until after the GP, although I acknowledged a possibility of it happening earlier and nic fit just getting screwed.
The floor at the GP was fairly heavily combo represented. I would guess something like 10% random, 25% combo (all varieties), 20% delver, 15% aggro, 20% control (miracles & keeper), 5% Death and Taxes, 5% Burn. I had been expecting something like 10-12% combo with the remaining percentage being dumped back into delver. Keep in mind, this is judged mostly off of my experiences and those of the people whom I talked to throughout the weekend, coupled with what I saw from walking around. In a room with 4000 people playing legacy, it's very hard to get the whole picture -- that's my best guess.
---------
Sit down for round 2 (had a bye round 1). Delver decks to the right of me, Miracles to the left of me. I get the asshole playing ANT.
I Thoughtseize him game 1, he Brainstorms in response and untaps to kill me.
I Cabal Therapy him game 2, whiff (named Dark Ritual, he has Cabals, Lotus Peal, and an LED). I don't have the green source for the Zenith in my hand to get the Explorer to flashback + present Slaughter Games next turn. He goes off.
Sit down for round 3.
My opponent goes t1 Mountain -> Grindstone. Okay, no secrets here. I play a fetch and ship. He plays Great Furnace -> Painter's Servant. K. I play a basic, fetch for another basic, and mainphase Decay on the Painter because I don't want to give him the opportunity to REB my lands. He shrugs, plays a land and a Goblin Welder.
Now, my hand is a couple of lands, another Decay, and a Deed. My thought is, that I'm protected thanks to the Decay. He'll weld his Furnace into Painter and try to kill me, then I Decay his Painter, mill a couple of cards, then go land, Deed, break for 1 and leave him with like a solitary Mountain in play. He instead activates Grindstone, holds priority, Welds the Grindstone into the Painter. I think it through for a moment, realize that I never get priority before I have 0 cards in my library, and scoop.
Never saw that trick before, good to remember.
The next game I have a basic, a couple of duals, a Decay, a Deed, and some other good shit. He goes City of Traitors, pitch Guide, Blood Moon. Untap, Painter's Servant + Grindstone off of a Lotus Petal. I don't draw another basic for my Decay and I die.
Magic is fun.
I sit down for round 4. My opponent leads with a Gemstone Mine, and I'm seriously on the verge of conceding and signing the match slip on the spot.
Instead of doing broken things, though, my opponent elects to not play magic and starts dredging. He has like a turn 3 kill off of 4x ichorids. A Breakthrough happened on turn 2, but he ended up getting slightly screwed on his dredgers and ran out after 2 draws. Didn't matter.
Game 2 was probably the most fun I had all weekend. I'm at 5 lands with just a Wish in hand and a Top in play. He has Elesh Norn + 3 zombies and I'm at 6. He also has Ichorids in his graveyard -- nothing I can do or wish for short of killing him will get there. I put a Green Sun on top of my deck, and GSZ@1, which gets me Explorer (dies to elesh), gets 2 lands. This leaves me with 7 lands in play, but only 5 mana untapped. I think for a moment, and see no other option other than to blind draw off of Top hoping for a land or a Vet. I hit the Vet, cast it, get my last two basics, Wish, Scapeshift, kill you.
Woof.
Game 3 is much more academic. I disrupt him with some early discard to keep him unable to start going off, which puts him on the "draw up to 8 cards then discard plan." I have a super ramp heavy hand and hit the requisite land count on like turn 4. A Top+spin -> Wish -> Shift later and I'm actually taking a match slip up for once.
I sit down for round 5, and am rewarded with an opponent who goes basic Plains -> go.
Praise jeebus.
This match is a ritual sacrifice. I sweep him multiple times each game, and coupled with my spot removal, I was never in danger of even coming close to losing. Unfortunately, though, this gave me a little false confidence. 3-2, feeling like I can turn it around and maybe lucksac my way into day 2 (at which point breakers reset and who cares around day 1).
I sit down for round 6. My opponent goes basic Plains, go.
Holy shit.
I win game 1 hilariously convincingly, with multiple removal spells in hand at the end of the game.
Game two I keep a very greedy hand on the draw, where my only mana source is a Bayou. I have Thoughtseize, Therapy, Deed, Sakura-Tribe, Decay, Wish -- aka literally everything I could want except a Zenith.
He leads with Mom. I obviously rip a Taiga for my turn, but lead Bayou -> Thoughtseize. He has a Wasteland, along with a Stoneforge, Serra, and a couple other things. He doesn't Waste me, and plays a dude instead.
I'm not sure exactly what I did here, but whatever it was, it was the wrong line. I should have Wish->Massacred him to clear out his 2 creatures. Instead I did....something else. A pair of Wastelands and a Batterskull later, we're going to game 3.
Game 3 I mull into the old Forests + Mountains hand. I end up Wishing for a boarded-out Zenith because I had 2x discard in hand and needed a black source, however, I misplayed with the Zenith. He had just a Thalia out for a while but wasn't doing anything else, which prompted me to think that he had at least one Swords in his hand. My opponent was savvy about when he was Swordsing vs when he was killing the Explorer, and I knew that he knew that I was short black, and the Explorer would get refugged immediately. As a result, I elected to hold Zenith for Sakura.
The problem is that I was out-thinking myself. Turned out that he had multiple Flickerwisps in hand and 0 Swords (had actually boarded 2 copies out). By the time I got Sakura off, he'd gotten a Vial ticked up to 3 and started using Flickerwisps to Stone Rain my black source each turn. This inhibited me long enough that he was able to finish me off while I was still stumbling.
Dead at 3-3.
-----------
Two of the games I lost were basically my fault -- if I'd just Decayed the Grindstone like I knew I should've vs Painter, I would have undoubtedly won game 1, and then at least would have had a shot at that match. If I'd mulled // not been overconfident g2 vs DnT #2, I would've likely won that game (and thus match) and been 4-2 and still live.
The bigger problem is that I played against exactly 0 Delvers and 0 Tundras -- both of which I was firmly prepared for. I can accept losing to a combo deck at a GP. People can and will play anything. But 3 combo decks in the first 3 rounds is pretty unfortunate -- and I can't even use the "L" word (luck), because I played like an ape in the games where I DID have a chance.
I dunno. Pretty disappointed in myself.
More thoughts later.
Dualcaster was useless for me, but that's mostly matchup dependent // hand dependent.
Two people from my area were playing my exact 76, and Dualcaster was phenomenal for both of them -- one guy beat Storm round 1 with help from DCM via copying the guy's own Cabal Therapy / Duress effects. The other was able to beat Reanimator via Bolt, hold priority, DCM, copy Bolt, swing. This is not counting generic Brainstorm copies, Force copies, and other common uses.
Basically Scapewish is splitting into two subvariants, I think -- a Scape Control list with spot removal + DCMs, and a more midrange Scape Monsters list with Huntmasters, Thragtusks, etc. The midrange list may want a single copy of DCM, MAYBE two, but it's definitely not as great for that list as it is for the control list.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c.../gpnj14/d2meta
HoneyT seems to be the one and only one to have sneaked in day 2.
I guess his list was inventoried as JUND midrange.
Blue-Red Delver 20% 89
Jeskai Stoneblade 10% 44
Death and Taxes 7% 31
Jeskai Miracles 6% 25
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 5% 21
Sultai Delver 5% 21
Other 48% 215
Grumble grumble matchups complain complain.
On a more serious note, that is SIGNIFICANTLY less Miracles than I expected.
God, WotC's naming conventions is even worse than SCG's. LOCUS RAMP? REALLY?
Let's collapse this a bit.
Ramp:
MUD 6
Jund Midrange 1 (Punishing Nic Fit)
Locus Ramp 1 (12post)
Aggro:
Merfolk 8
Affinity 5
Maverick 2
Punishing Maverick 2
Goblins 2
White-Black Stoneblade 2
Slivers 1
Four-Color Loam 1
Dark Maverick 1
Abzan 1
Abzan Maverick 1
Black-Green Rock 1
Tempo:
Blue-Red Delver 89
Sultai Delver 21
Jeskai Delver 17
Temur Delver 10 (how the mighty have fallen)
Sultai Tempo 1 (???)
Grixis Tempo 1
Blue-Green Delver 1
Blue-Red Pyromancer 1
Control:
Jeskai Stoneblade 44
Jeskai Miracles 25
Esper Deathblade 9
Jund 8
Tezzeret 5
Shardless Sultai 3
White-Blue Stoneblade 3
Blue-Red Landstill 2
Deathblade 1 (not sure why this is in a different grouping)
Shardless Sultai 1
White-Blue Control 1 (uw landstill?)
Stoneforge Control 1
Blue-Red Control 1
Bant Stoneblade 1
Mardu Deathblade 1
Combo:
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 21
Sneak and Show 19
Elves 17
Reanimator 16
Omni-Tell 14
Burn 11
Dredge 6
Infect 5
Blue-Red Burn 3
Dark Depths 2 (assuming BG turbo depths with Into the Norths, Crop Rots, etc)
Show and Tell 2 (not sure what this is)
White-Red Painter 1
Manaless Dredge 1
Sneak Attack 1
Food Chain 1
High Tide 1
Charbelcher 1 (always that one asshole)
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 1 (not sure why this is on the list twice. maybe it's SI or something like?)
Prison:
Death and Taxes 31
Lands 8
Enchantress 1
Smallpox 1
Some of these are a little arbitrary but I'm doing the best I can without breaking it up into a million subcategories.
Compacted further:
8 Ramp
27 Aggro
141 Tempo
106 Control
123 Combo
41 Prison (mostly DnT)
446 decks.
1.8% ramp
6.1% aggro
31.6% tempo
23.8% control
27.6% combo
9.2% prison
Tempo > combo > control > prison (dnt) > aggro > ramp in terms of likelihood of playing vs.
I need to assimilate this before I give further thoughts.
Thanks for your report kevin, as you mentioned, sometimes magic is a bitch...3 combo decks in a row...
I remember GP Paris, my record was 4:0 with Punishing Fit and than i faced 3 combo decks and also lost any luck...kicked out of the tournament.
@HoneyT:
Can we get a list of your powerful performance?![]()
TEAM MtG Berlin
@Maharis.
Thanks for the detailed report.
I'll give you more details on my thoughts ASAP.
On a more general note, playing Abzan Fit is unforgiving.
I learnt it the hard way, so do you...
Playing tight and safe against agressive strategy & playing aggressive against more controlish strategy are mandatory.
We need to practise more. Settle on a version of the deck (whatever it is) and just play it against various decks.
I lost to miracle G1 and I won vs Miracle G6. Guess what ? I learnt from my previous errors.
Okay. Time for some conclusions.
Observation 1:
Force of Will is crucial in a legacy Grand Prix. People are hipsters, rogues and morons. They can and will play literally anything because some percentage of them find it funny to be landmines to other people without any consideration for their own records, and/or "just want to have fun." Good for them, but I'm not interested in losing to that class of person. Multiple people in my extended friend group played vs Pox, Cheerios (yes, really), Enchantress, Dream Halls, etc. Playing in a Grand Prix without Force of Will is a massive gamble, plain and simple. Sometimes we'll get lucky and dodge the random bullshit, but then there's the rest of the time. Tim played every single round on Saturday, with no byes, and worked his way through. One of my friends had 2 byes and squandered them, going 2-5 before finally giving up. Who knows what can happen.
Observation 2:
Have a strong, proactive plan. This is something that bug Nic Fits tend to have issues with. BUG Fits don't really have a cohesive plan overall. They just play a lot of value, draw a ton of cards, and hope that some combination of them eventually gets there. Note that I'm fully aware that my own bug build has this same problem. Scapewish has long been one of the most successful variants because it has a strong, linear plan. Sure, it backs that up with a bunch of other plans which feed into the main trunk, but if I'm up against something like Dredge, for example, I still have a plan. Interact where I can, otherwise ramp up and scapeshift as quickly as humanly possible. BUG NEEDS to find something in this model to be successful, and it can't be Pod because Pod needs to run too many cards that don't interact.
Observation 3:
Burn needs to be solved. One of the reasons that I actively stayed away from BUG while considering decks for the GP was because its burn matchup is questionable, much more so than other variants of Nic Fit. Some number of Obstinate Baloths is a start. That card is a fucking house. Beyond that, I dunno. It could be that adding a linear plan to the deck might also help a significant amount.
More later.
I should note that I'm referring specifically to GPs, not to local big legacy events//40 duals//SCGs//etc.
So I faced punishing maverick (win), sneak-show (win), u/r delver (win), lands (loss), elves (loss), u/r delver (win), dredge (win), turbolands (loss). Rhino/forge fit. I'll put a list when I'm by a real computer. The deck felt really strong. Only one of my losses was in 2 games.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Interesting that you find Burn to be difficult, as I feel as though it is nearly a bye for BUG. They can't beat Glen Elendra, they struggle with a Jace in play brainstorming and fatesealing them, Baleful Strix, Abrupt Decay and Deed screw up their creature plan, we are immune to Price of Progress, and they don't interact. We also have FOW for fireblast.
The BUG deck basically just locks the opponent out with some combination of fast Jace, Glen Elendra, notion thief, and a ton of removal and discard, and then closes the game with a finisher of choice. I've never felt like I had an issue closing out games. Many decks in the format can't beat those cards, and the rest can't beat Pernicious Deed. With brainstorm, ponder, and DTT, you never have trouble finding the finisher when you actually need it, and I don't think I've ever lost a game once a Sphinx trigger resolved. I find that a decent hand will rarely lose, and the biggest issue with the deck is the inconsistency inherent in running a deck with 22 lands. I'm not sure if the deck is better than scapeshift/junk vs the decks it's favored against, but having an even or favored matchup vs combo is worth that tradeoff for me.
Yes. I said to myself "He'd have to draw perfectly to kill me from 11." Famous last words!
Arianrhod, in a 4,000+ person tournament there's no way to be prepared for everything. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I also am not surprised at the non-penetration of Miracles day 2. If you think about it they're going to rack up the draws and not get to 21 points, plus it's a hard deck to play in that environment. I have a friend who day 2'd with Miracles but said after a couple rounds he would've rather played something else just for a little more excitement.
Sorry guys I choked on playing Nic Fit at the GP. I decided to play a deck with FoW and Brainstorm instead and barely missed day2. I was planning at least on playing it during the super Sunday event (476 players I think?) but I got cold feet again and missed top8 by a hair with a Delver deck.
I still think Junk Nic Fit is the best version but I find it extremely difficult to justify a non-blue deck as a competitive choice, especially with TC in the format. Perhaps a BUG Nic Fit deck would be the best in the end. This is what I have in mind:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Sagu Mauler
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
I could see some combination of Envelop, Dimir Charm, Toxic Deluge, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Liliana Thrun, etc. in the sideboard. I might play this tomorrow at a weekly tournament and see how it goes. Any suggestions for SB cards I could be obviously omitting?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Ah ! Traître !!!
Concerning your BUG Fit, here are a couple of suggestions:
I went that way. Green is not a primary color in this deck. More likely a juicy splash, just to help things going (ramping & life gain for certain MU)
1) With library manipulation you can afford to shave all save 0-1 GSZ.
2) Cut DRS & Reclamation Sage. You want to go bigger just because you have access to brainstorm and you can fix slow hands. Play a Frost Titan, instead. This is the guy closing parties. Because he is such a pain in the ass for any opponent. He messes up with Batterskull, huge monsters, lands (or whatever annoying thing you might have to cope with) that are not taken care by pernicious deed & his clock is good.
3) Play 1 or 2 Glen Elendra Archmage. She is that good. She brings what is lacking to BUG Fit: a reliable way to either resolve a sweeper or to ride a beast (Frost Titan) to victory. Not to mention that against combo, if you manage to resolve her keeping an untapped blue. Aie...
4) Play Baleful Strix. Consider him as one of your life gainer creature, pitchable to FOW, fodder to cabal therapy and that replaces itself. Not to mention that he also helps growing Ooze big sometimes.
5) I would also play a mix between DTT & TC. Actually, I have found that DTT is better for this deck. 2/1 seems to be the perfect split.
Anyway, here is the list, I'm playing from time to time (4 times last week to 3-1) on cockatrice:
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Frost Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Dig Through Time
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Ponder
1 Green Sun Zenith
Sideboard:
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Plague
Edit: Hope you like long to very long games...That's the price to pay for playing such a control deck.
Last edited by Ralf; 11-19-2014 at 09:21 AM.
As i mentioned, i discussed BUG Fit with Arianhood before the GP. I don't like Maindeck Force of Will, but i understand the reason behind it. Especially in a big tournament, everything can happen and you don't want to lose so easy against Combo Decks with a blue Deck. Afterall, Nic Fit can even hardcast Force of Will, so maybe it is right. The bad (besides Sneak Show) combo matchup Game 1 is the biggest issue i have with BUG Pod - i feel, that even an old Punishing Fire build have more weapons against combo...
Speak about different builds:
// Deck: BUG Version 1 (60)
// Lands
I used my current duals, so it can be different like +1 Usea -1 Island etc. I like to have 1 or 2 specific land slots. I hate to lose against Sneak Show, so Karakas (with all the legend creatures) was an easy slot, Stronghold wins grindy games and without witness and lesser decks with Deathrites, this land is not so bad - can also be the other tower as well ;)
3 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
// Creatures
As Ralf said: Strix is a real deal in BUG! Wincons: You can use any 6drop, most like Sphinx but i can also see 1 Frost Titan etc. It is a slot that should win a game on its own. Thrun stops most stuff and with Karakas he can also dodge Terminus. Titania, Protector of Argoth is a test, but if Nic Fit finds a shell it would be BUG with enough Fetches.
Rest is blue Utility: Venser can answer everthing and i like another answer against Show&Tell, Clique also improves Combo/Control matchups and both can be nasty with Karakas.
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Veteran Explorer
// Spells
Playset Decay - current meta needs it - Double Deed because with enough Cantrips and Decay two should be ok. More Win cons: Batterskull is good in every control shell and it is also a nice support for the "weak" blue Creatures or Explorer. I like Garruk as a Combatwalker, easy to cast and with usefull abilities. Both can be Jace if needed. Playset Therapy + Force for some protection. Rest is blue Cantrip-Stuff.
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard is flexible, just some spells against different Matchups. Finks can be Baloth (but it is slower) etc. Nothing fix here, besides Fluster and Archmage.
I will post a different version (with another playstyle) later.
TEAM MtG Berlin
I'd recommend the third deed. My win percentage against Delver and Death and Taxes increased dramatically when I went from two to three, and there are few decks where the card is dead. I find that Deed is my plan A vs those decks and Abrupt Decay is my plan B, thus the 3/2 split. I also like Notion Thief better than Venser (I have Venser in the side) because he makes blue combo decks unable to win, while also randomly blowing out fair blue decks, and he doesn't require a colorless land to shine. Glen Elendra is also great vs those decks, and additionally hoses Miracles, every combo deck, and any deck that's trying to Cruise.
Miracles is one of the rougher matches for this deck that can't be fixed with some sideboard bullets, so I'd love to hear if anyone has suggestions that I'm not already running. I got a test round in last night, and managed to win in 3 although it took almost two hours. In the final game we both had Jaces ticking back and forth around 11 and 12 and I finally just ran him out of answers. This is my sideboard plan against them for BUG nic fit:
-1 Deed
-1 Therapy
-4 Explorer
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Thragtusk
I think I'd feel better about the matchup if I had a beefy non-blue planeswalker like Garruk Relentless to bring in as well, but all of the cards I boarded in were amazing, particularly the library. It is fairly annoying that Pyroblast/REB hoses almost my entire deck, but luckily this is the only matchup where that matters. I like the suggestion of Garruk or Batterskull, and I'll have to test that out.
With regard to BUG, I am really curious about Mystical Teachings... our deck can conceivably cast both ends pretty easily and it finds a lot of nifty cards. This is a list I'm tooling around with:
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
3x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Phyrexian Tower
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Notion Thief
1x Baleful Strix
1x Horizon Chimera
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Thragtusk
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Mystical Teachings
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Consume the Meek
1x Dig Through Time
4x Swan Song
3x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Pithing Needle
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Chill
1x Golgari Charm
23 lands might be too much. Horizon Chimera is a little cute. So is probe, but it ups the blue count and makes Therapy a monster. I just really want to teachings for Notion Thief EOT and hold it up. The Swan Song sideboard slot is questionable too... Glen Elendra is also really good in the matchups where I want SS but I have no way to really find it. Miracles can just blow me away under countertop, but if I'm holding SS Counterbalance shouldn't resolve... I think. Plus I have decay. I don't know, I haven't resolved a brainstorm in years but if there was a deck I would play it in, this would be it.
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