All B/R update speculation.

[iGrok]

It's just disturbing, that people think the banning of brainstorm would negate the dominance of Ponder/Preordain/Probe/Treasure Cruise/Delver/FoW/Daze and suddenly all their non-blue pet-decks can compete.

Agreed.

I think, without delver, the Xerox (blue shell) decks would be slow enough that the format as a whole could slow down a hair. Possibly enough that hate cards could do their job against the slower blue shell decks. And a delver ban wouldn't hurt ANT or other blue-based combo decks who can only really exist because of the consistency brainstorm & ponder et al provide.

Delver decks never played Preordain, but they all adopted Treasure Cruise and had been playing Probe in some amount for a while. The deck doesn't want that effect. Taking brainstorm out of the equation and replacing it with Preordain makes the deck significantly less consistent. There are powerful spells and effects in other colors that only need a single extra turn to make Legacy a much wider open format both color and strategy wise. Tapping the brakes on the Delver deck is good for everybody.

Agreed. But I think the best way to do that is by nuking delver. Rug goes back to golf/goose, uwr becomes stoneblade, etc. The delver Decks are what is pressuring the format.

[lordofthepit]

The joke it: It would.

You ban Brainstorm and can wait 4 weeks until Preordain/SDT takes the spot in the infamous blue-cantrip-shell to once more outclass every other card-selection and providing the best method to reduce variance and people start over with "how unfair are Preordain/Ponder if they can fix greedy one-landers!?"

Then we would have the next 200 pages of this thread filled of "how Ponder is like Demonic Tutor" and that it should be banned because White does not habe access to a similar effect.

I would definitely start giving Elves, Maverick, Zoo, Jund, Lands, and Painter serious consideration again as my primary deck if Brainstorm got banned. There is a huge dropoff between Brainstorm and Ponder, even if Ponder is good enough to be the third-most played spell in the format.

[Lemnear]

Agreed.

I think, without delver, the Xerox (blue shell) decks would be slow enough that the format as a whole could slow down a hair. Possibly enough that hate cards could do their job against the slower blue shell decks. And a delver ban wouldn't hurt ANT or other blue-based combo decks who can only really exist because of the consistency brainstorm & ponder et al provide.

I support this suggested angle. If you chop the head of blue, Ultra-efficient threats, other decks and colors can fill the Void.

It can't be that from tempo to control to combo to midrange all the best options are blue. That is the core of the Problem

Face it: WotC has not learned their lesson after Brainstorm and created Ponder, they have not learned from Delver and created TNN, they have not learned from Gush and created Treasure Cruise.

[nedleeds]

The subset of people who think the drop off between Brainstorm and Pondordain is anything other than massive are just hopelessly clueless. Saying Ponder would replace it is also a sign of colossal ignorance since ... guess what? 80% of the Brainstorm decks play 4 Ponder anyway.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would definitely start giving Elves, Maverick, Zoo, Jund, Lands, and Painter serious consideration again as my primary deck if Brainstorm got banned. There is a huge dropoff between Brainstorm and Ponder, even if Ponder is good enough to be the third-most played spell in the format.

The more I think about a ban of both BS and Ponder, the more I like it. While Ponder is definitely a really crappy version of BS (namely because it cannot unmulligan), it's still pretty good and banning both BS and Ponder would open the field. Right now it's just Delver...

Then if WotC would be really courageous, they could simultaneously ban BS plus Ponder and unban Survival of the Fittest. It'll be brilliant. This would definitely change the meta.

Also as a sidenote: I see quite some strange trend in this thread. People who simply wish to discuss a posible BS ban are routinelly attacked as "whiners" by the crowd that is oh so obviously affraid that someone may touch their pet deck and that it might not be the best choice anymore. All that bullshit about "BS allows more archetypes that it suppresses" and similar stuff makes me laugh. Every time I read it I immediately imagine a Delver/TES/Miracles player trembling in fear that his only deck won't have free wins anymore; so who's the whiner here? At least the players who dislike the nowadays "metagame" with it's three archetypes admit what's their real concern - the boring game -, instead of hiding behind words.

Look, nobody will laugh at you simply because you can play onlyone deck or don't have cards for another one, or do not know how to metagame against the field of three+ decks, but seriously, stop pretending that the pro-BS crusade is about keeping the skill-intensive diversity and wutnot, when it's clearly about you being připosránci. and yes, IDK how's that word in murican.

[Teluin]

Guys, why don't we just unban the great equalizer?

[Benrobnu]

One delver deck makes the top 8 of the gp and it's "The only thing in the format". Give me a break.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Agreed.

I think, without delver, the Xerox (blue shell) decks would be slow enough that the format as a whole could slow down a hair. Possibly enough that hate cards could do their job against the slower blue shell decks. And a delver ban wouldn't hurt ANT or other blue-based combo decks who can only really exist because of the consistency brainstorm & ponder et al provide.



Agreed. But I think the best way to do that is by nuking delver. Rug goes back to golf/goose, uwr becomes stoneblade, etc. The delver Decks are what is pressuring the format.

This is the way to go about it. Delver should have never existed and is indeed terrible for the format. If the color with the next best card quality engines (in this format, Green) can't answer a Delver efficiently while being unable to have a fast-enough response to glass-cannon-combo (which Delver has in the form of Daze and FoW), then why play that color when you could be playing the color with the best card quality engines (in this format, Blue).

I support this suggested angle. If you chop the head of blue, Ultra-efficient threats, other decks and colors can fill the Void.

It can't be that from tempo to control to combo to midrange all the best options are blue. That is the core of the Problem

Face it: WotC has not learned their lesson after Brainstorm and created Ponder, they have not learned from Delver and created TNN, they have not learned from Gush and created Treasure Cruise.

Let me ask ya something: what is it that makes TNN so bad? The evasion? Or the protection?

How about what's better? Delver with its evasion? Or Mongoose with its protection?

Finally, what costs less to play? Delver? Or TNN?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

One delver deck makes the top 8 of the gp and it's "The only thing in the format". Give me a break.

Use that break to stop at our DTB onlin shop where you might find a Delver list that suits your needs.

[btm10]

Then if WotC would be really courageous, they could simultaneously ban BS plus Ponder and unban Survival of the Fittest. It'll be brilliant. This would definitely change the meta.

Also as a sidenote: I see quite some strange trend in this thread. People who simply wish to discuss a posible BS ban are routinelly attacked as "whiners" by the crowd that is oh so obviously affraid that someone may touch their pet deck and that it might not be the best choice anymore. All that bullshit about "BS allows more archetypes that it suppresses" and similar stuff makes me laugh. Every time I read it I immediately imagine a Delver/TES/Miracles player trembling in fear that his only deck won't have free wins anymore; so who's the whiner here? At least the players who dislike the nowadays "metagame" with it's three archetypes admit what's their real concern - the boring game -, instead of hiding behind words.

Look, nobody will laugh at you simply because you can play onlyone deck or don't have cards for another one, or do not know how to metagame against the field of three+ decks, but seriously, stop pretending that the pro-BS crusade is about keeping the skill-intensive diversity and wutnot, when it's clearly about you being připosránci. and yes, IDK how's that word in murican.

I'm assuming an approximate translation is "butthurt", but being 'murican, I don't speak of word of what looks like Czech.

But to your point - I don't find the current meta boring at all. At the last SCG event I played in I played 5 blue decks in 9 rounds, and only the same deck twice. Furthermore, these were three very different blue decks - UR Delver, 2x Team America, and UW Stoneblade. While both TA and UR both run Delver, it's a joke to say they're the same deck in all but the most superficial way. The two Stage/Depths (all-in Junk Depths and Jund Aggro Loam) decks I played against were more similar to each other than are TA and UR.

Finally, I really don't see what you gain by accusing me or anyone else who supports keeping Brainstorm around of bad faith. Is it that unbelievable that we actually think that Legacy's meta problems can be fixed with self correction? Look at the top 16 from GPNJ. UR Landstill showed up. A UBR Dack Fayden control list showed up. I'd bet that these were the only copies of these decks floating around, and they did well. There's nothing to suggest that there aren't more decks like these out there, and running Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will shouldn't be strikes against them. They're distinct decks that have different tactical approaches to games than do other decks in the format, and I think that the real measure of diversity is in the number of things you can (try to) do, rather than the tools that you use to approach doing those things.

[wonderPreaux]

Also as a sidenote: I see quite some strange trend in this thread. People who simply wish to discuss a posible BS ban are routinelly attacked as "whiners" by the crowd that is oh so obviously affraid that someone may touch their pet deck and that it might not be the best choice anymore. All that bullshit about "BS allows more archetypes that it suppresses" and similar stuff makes me laugh. Every time I read it I immediately imagine a Delver/TES/Miracles player trembling in fear that his only deck won't have free wins anymore; so who's the whiner here?

Everyone is defending their pet deck if they have one, I rather think that's how a pet deck works, right? This entire argument is about, subjectively, what feels appropriate for the format. How is someone who wants their Jund deck to be more playable somehow less of a whiner than someone who enjoys the current viability of their preferred combo deck and logically wouldn't want that to change? We'd all like to be able to just play a pile of cards we particularly like and have it be competitive.

At least the players who dislike the nowadays "metagame" with it's three archetypes admit what's their real concern - the boring game -, instead of hiding behind words.

Who decided it was boring? I find control, tempo, and combo and many other decks, with or without Brainstorm, to have a plethora of intriguing interactions (I also count more than 3 archetypes, but, hey, who cares about facts, all blue decks are the same, right?). I've had some frustrating games/days playing Legacy, but I've yet to have a boring one, even in matchups I've played a dozen times, again, Brainstorm or not. How is your opinion that the format is boring more valid than another person's opinion that it isn't? There is no special hipster medal or distinction for not liking Blue that makes someone's opinion more worthwhile or valuable, or entitles them to a certain number of top8 appearances, afaik. If you want "excitement" or you want a deck with no blue to be competitive, innovate one. Lejay's out there with that Green stompy list he'd been researching and refining, that Soldier Stompy list and "Big Red" Sneak attack had been under-the-radar flavors of the month in the past. if you want the meta to be arbitrarily different, do the work and get it there if you really feel so strongly. Banning something like Delver and/or TNN at least serves to correct color imbalances, namely that blue isn't about board presence, banning blue for doing blue things is just arbitrary and goes back to the whole personal preference issue of everyone whining about their particular likes/dislikes.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm assuming an approximate translation is "butthurt", but being 'murican, I don't speak of word of what looks like Czech.

But to your point - I don't find the current meta boring at all. At the last SCG event I played in I played 5 blue decks in 9 rounds, and only the same deck twice. Furthermore, these were three very different blue decks - UR Delver, 2x Team America, and UW Stoneblade. While both TA and UR both run Delver, it's a joke to say they're the same deck in all but the most superficial way. The two Stage/Depths (all-in Junk Depths and Jund Aggro Loam) decks I played against were more similar to each other than are TA and UR.

Finally, I really don't see what you gain by accusing me or anyone else who supports keeping Brainstorm around of bad faith. Is it that unbelievable that we actually think that Legacy's meta problems can be fixed with self correction? Look at the top 16 from GPNJ. UR Landstill showed up. A UBR Dack Fayden control list showed up. I'd bet that these were the only copies of these decks floating around, and they did well. There's nothing to suggest that there aren't more decks like these out there, and running Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will shouldn't be strikes against them. They're distinct decks that have different tactical approaches to games than do other decks in the format, and I think that the real measure of diversity is in the number of things you can (try to) do, rather than the tools that you use to approach doing those things.

The Delver decks are not different. They resolve the eponymous threat and protect it while riding FTW. Sometimes they add BSKull, other time they Stifle, but mostly it's about BS, Ponder and Delver.
Color me not entertained. No matter if that's Sultai, Jeskai or Mzadai, it's still pretty same experience.
The openings are all the same. The early tunrs are all the same. The durdle turns are all the same until one dude runs out of creatures/removal and then one last Delver taps for the one last time. Hm.

How is your opinion that the format is boring more valid than another person's opinion that it isn't?

I could ask the same. How is anybody's opinion that BS is good for meta more valuable than my opinion that it isn't?
Also, why the BS-haters can be called whiners, while the BS-lovers cannot be called crybabies?

if you want the meta to be arbitrarily different, do the work and get it there if you really feel so strongly. Banning something like Delver and/or TNN at least serves to correct color imbalances, namely that blue isn't about board presence, banning blue for doing blue things is just arbitrary and goes back to the whole personal preference issue of everyone whining about their particular likes/dislikes.

Pardon me, but I thought we're discussing a power level of BS and the opinion that it might be too powerful for Legacy. Not TNN, not my spare time, not Soldier Stompy, but power of BS.

[Fatal]

Some ppl doesn't realize huge gap between blue cantrips:

Brainstorm - it change quality of 3 cards from hand, digging for 3, connected with fetchland you can get quality of 3 cards without any downsides. Changing card from hand is huge since:
- it stacks Miracle triggers cards in hand
- Its protects key cards in hand from discard
- It's instant speed

Ponder - it brings quality of card for 1 of 3 card drawn from top of library, it also provide shuffle effect to blindy draw 4th card.
- It stacks cards on library, but doesn't change cards in hand.
- It doesn't protect card in hand
- it's sorcery speed
Only pros from brainstorm - it has build in shuffle effect, and dig 1 more - but for cost of blind draw (no quality).

Preordain - it brings quality of 1 from 3 card drawn from top of library, it doesn't have shuffle effect, but on the other side, its scry first 2 cards with is nice
- It stacks cards from library, but doesn't change cards in hand
- It doesn't protect card in hand
- Its' also sorcery speed
Only pros from brainstorm - it can scry 2 unvaluable cards on bottom, but 3rd card is blind shot - so it dig 1 card less then Ponder.

Conclusion:

All other cantrips mention upper are sorcery speed, and doesn't protect cards in hand, they also change value only for 1 card, Preordain dig same numer of cards as brainstorm, Ponder 1 more but with cost of blind value.

Only similar effect of brainstorm has cantrips for 1U:
- Lat-Nam's Legacy - same speed (instant), first shuffle (can't protect) then draw, draw only 2 cards
- See Beyond - slow speed (sorcery), first draw then shuffle (can't protect), draw only 2 cards.
Both are less powerful then Brainstorm - for 1 mana more.

Like we see there is huge gap between all other cantrips and brainstorm.

[maharis]

A UBR Dack Fayden control list showed up.

There are 14 non-land cards in that deck that aren't also in BBD's first-place deck, and one of them is a 4th lightning bolt. The land base is largely the same swapping black with white. It's just another deck with the blue cantrip shell, some burn for reach, and your win condition of choice. Eli's deck plays Therapy for additional disruption while BBD plays Spell Pierce. That's the kind of convergence we're talking about. And by the way, neither deck plays Delver of Secrets.

46 cards in your deck are predetermined and you can "brew" on the other 14. Sure, it's superficially different. But I'm not in here telling you that there's much of a difference between Deadguy Ale, The Rock, and Dega. Ill swap back and forth between the three based on what I want to do. That's fine, but there should be more than one dominant shell.

That's also not to impugn either player who correctly identified that Young Pyromancer is insane. It's a testament to how good the blue shell is at fighting off disruption that both players were able to get so highly with x/1 spam (YP + TNN/Notion Thief) considering everyone knew that such strategies would be popular

[HrishiQQ]

Bear with me for a moment here.

Necropotence is a very skill testing card. It is a card people love, for the most part. It is a card that will most likely warp the metagame towards a certain color. It can go into various types of decks (it might be more effective in some, but it is simply a massive card advantage engine). Does this reasoning sound familiar?

That being said, if this card ever gets unbanned I'll be too happy to care about Brainstorm or Cruise or any card. Screw your blue shell, I'll just pay lots of life and use the power of the skull! If WOTC does not want to ban brainstorm or anything, that's fine. Let's unban cards that are equally format warping. Perhaps it'll balance itself out into pillars like vintage has. Honestly, I'd prefer that anyway.

[Darkenslight]

I don't know how many times it needs to be pointed out that SotF wasn't banned because of a certain penetration in the meta or for being an enabler for Vengevine. Reading the official B&R announcement was pretty clear despite people keep ignoring it.

I have a slight Problem if you complain about BS converting situational bad cards into better ones, but advocate for SotFs unbanning despite the card doing the same conversion in all decks that ran it, but with the offending, additional abuse as an actual cardadvantage- and/or combo-engine.



It's just disturbing, that people think the banning of brainstorm would negate the dominance of Ponder/Preordain/Probe/Treasure Cruise/Delver/FoW/Daze and suddenly all their non-blue pet-decks can compete.

That makes sense, and apologies if I wasn't clear; the flawed logic used for the most recent Legacy changes can easily be applied to the entire shell (direct quote from http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...y/feature/161b):

Legacy

Mental Misstep is banned.

Force of Will has long been thought of as a card that helps keep combination decks in check in Legacy and Vintage. However, it doesn't directly help decks that aren't playing blue. One idea that was floated was creating a similar card that could be played in nonblue decks. When Phyrexian mana was designed, it was an opportunity to create such a card. R&D wanted a card that could help fight combination decks, and could also fight blue decks by countering cards such as Brainstorm. Clearly printing a card like this has a lot of risk, but there is also the potential for helping the format a lot. The risk is mitigated, because if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card.

Unfortunately, it turned out poorly. Looking at high-level tournaments, instead of results having blue and nonblue decks playing Mental Misstep, there are more blue decks than ever. The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep.

And from the Survival ban explanation:

In recent months, Survival of the Fittest decks have been outperforming other decks in Legacy. This has caused the competitive format to become significantly less diverse. This has reached a point where the DCI concluded that it is appropriate to ban a card.

Other cards were considered, such as Vengevine. However some of the winning decks do not even play Vengevine; instead, they primarily rely on combinations with Necrotic Ooze. Also, Survival is a card that gives the decks a lot of resilience to potential answer cards. Some combination decks fail when they draw cards intended as answers to opponents' decks instead of cards that are part of their winning combination. However, with Survival of the Fittest on the battlefield, a drawn Qasali Pridemage can be replaced with any other creature in the deck for one mana.

The emphasis is on that part, because that is the crux of my issue. The Blue Shell will be considerably weakened by the loss of its most flexible card, and IMO that's necessary. One could also apply this logic to Delver, to a degree, for what that's worth. I like the card, I dislike the near-requirement that you play that shell and greatly reduce variance. The loss of the primary piece, due to its instant-speed nature, might be necessary, and it is by FAR the joint-most prevalent card in terms of Top 8 spot percentages.

Also, notice that, whilst I'd be interested in seeing Survival come off, I don't think it's the right card to unban. If that makes sense.

[jafar]

The big fail was givin' to Blue efficient and undercosted way to close a game.

And that's it.

Every efficient beater in the past was (mostly) green for a reason. Not pitchable to fow, more color requirement.

Now you can completely cut the green having as a result a 2 color hyper-aggresive and hyper-efficient build (UR).

I'm often a player of non-blue decks but i could admit easily that brainstorm is not evil.

Blue has to mantain the capability of cantripping and interacting with te stack and nothing more.

The anomaly here are the finishers being blue: Delver, S&T, TNN (in this order and assuming that TNN doesn't need the axe).

On a sidenote: in a world of decay and RIP (and many more efficient GY hates) unban survival should be quite legitimate.

Bye

[mikeshimoji]

I actually completely agree with the above. I have been reading this thread awhile to get some ideas, but I do come to the conclusion that it is the creatures which has caused other non-blue decks to suffer. And believe me when I say I do not play blue at all. I am a writer for EternalCentral and my articles are titled "Fighting the Blues." I really don't mind brainstorm existing. It is the creatures coupled with the original strength of blue that I have a hard time with.

[FoolofaTook]

I actually completely agree with the above. I have been reading this thread awhile to get some ideas, but I do come to the conclusion that it is the creatures which has caused other non-blue decks to suffer. And believe me when I say I do not play blue at all. I am a writer for EternalCentral and my articles are titled "Fighting the Blues." I really don't mind brainstorm existing. It is the creatures coupled with the original strength of blue that I have a hard time with.

So, are you suggesting banning a handful of creatures and never printing another creature that can cost-efficiently be shoe-horned into blue as a beater?

Because I don't see any other way to handle the vise-lock that the blue shell has on the format right now. Even then Miracles would just become the best list by a mile if you did that since it's the blue shell lists with good creatures that do the most to suppress it right now in commonly played matchups.

You have to weaken the shell, maybe significantly with more than one core card ban, to put us in a meta where choice becomes real again.

Think about it: you can't make a rule for cost efficient creatures that they have to have double non-blue color in the casting cost in order to be printed. Even if you did that Abrupt Decay is a major part of BUG and it has double non-blue casting cost.

It's the shell. It's like a gigantic vampire squid eating the face off of Magic on a daily basis.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

So, are you suggesting banning a handful of creatures and never printing another creature that can cost-efficiently be shoe-horned into blue as a beater?

Because I don't see any other way to handle the vise-lock that the blue shell has on the format right now. Even then Miracles would just become the best list by a mile if you did that since it's the blue shell lists with good creatures that do the most to suppress it right now in commonly played matchups.

You have to weaken the shell, maybe significantly with more than one core card ban, to put us in a meta where choice becomes real again.

Think about it: you can't make a rule for cost efficient creatures that they have to have double non-blue color in the casting cost in order to be printed. Even if you did that Abrupt Decay is a major part of BUG and it has double non-blue casting cost.

It's the shell. It's like a gigantic vampire squid eating the face off of Magic on a daily basis.

It's not the shell: the shell itself has existed for quite some time and hasn't been truly oppressive (perhaps not the right word: ubiquitous?) until the release of Delver. Also, it's not cost-efficient threats that can be used with the blue shell, as Goyf and Mongoose have proven before Delver's existence. It is simply a combination of the following traits Delver possesses. 1) It has a 3/2 body for 1 CMC making it inefficient, yet necessary to remove early on. 2) It has evasion, which means most legacy viable creatures can't even block with it to buy time or force an overextension. 3) Most importantly, it is blue itself, making it much less awkward to have multiples in hand when combined with the blue shell.

1 isn't an issue in legacy other than you can't just durdle forever and hope to win: you have to answer it. 3 isn't exactly an issue either, although it's color identity is mechanically incorrect. 2 is the key issue: without a good way to buy time against a flipped Delver, it'll take over the game if you let it.

Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to a 'fixed' version that had Islandwalk instead of Flying.