Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Other than the blade lists you have a lot of once or twice and done in that group. Delver lists are powerful precisely because they are so redundant and losing their first threat is just an even trade for them. They're powerful because the hate for them is very limited.Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Tell me, where does Delver constantly win everything?
Delver decks shouldn't be even in the top5 "Legacy's best strategies" because playing a cc1 1/1 which flips into a mighty 3/2 flying is a joke.
People should rearrange their minds and play real decks that demand brainpower or are simply more powerful and evil.
I consider Storm, Miracles, Reanimator, UW Blade or even Deathblade and SneakShow stronger than Delverdeck.
The blade lists are in the same category but a bit stronger depending on configuration.
Nice, we're back into "this card isn't too good because it can die" territory
Honest question, are you actually Andrew Cuneo or are you just using his user name that he's been using on everything forever?
If you are not that's cool, whatever, but i'm probably not the only one who might be confused.
my two cents: I personally don't like what treasure cruise has done to the format. It's existence has pushed several long standing, interesting, and healthy deck archetypes over the cliff and into obsolescence on it's own, and as far as I can tell it hasn't actually created anything cool or new besides the abomination of that is UR Delver. The cards from Khans have just taken the deck types that were already on top of the format and made them even more resiliant.
I think whether people are willing to admit it or not though, a big component to the whole ban/don't ban xyz card debate revolves around the type of archetypes and decks each person prefers/has bought into.
I enjoy non-blue based control/attrition/resource denial/toolbox strategies, and these have all but been invalidated by treasure cruise, therefore I find myself hoping that the card gets cut.
Many of my friends who enjoy the same style of play and who have invested in those types of decks feel similarly.
Conversly, blue aggro tempo, blue control, and blue combo players that I interact are all giddy with their new card draw tools and are adamant that the format is fine with them existing. (although there are a few blue playing friends I know who don't think the card is healthy).
Also, I think people who play MODO are much more in agreeance that TC is problematic, because the metagame on MODO is currently revolving much more around the card than paper tournaments I've been to...
Will the Legacy metagame adapt? Yes, but when the dust settles, there will be a much narrower field of decks and strategies to pick from, because the new bar for a deck to compete in the format is "can you keep up with U: Draw 3 + fast clocks + permission + brainstorm", and that is an extremely high bar to meet.
The bottom line is: STOP GIVING BLUE DECKS AWESOME CARDS WIZARDS!!!
I don't agree at all.
Before the format was just as blue, but even more stale. At least now it seems unconventional decks like lands and MUD decks appear more often.
TC also put specific restrictions on deckbuilding; play a lot of cheap spells. Things like Thalia or trinishpere or CotV are amazing against those decks, as well as decks who just ignore Delvers and Pyromancers tokens like lands. If anything has to be banned, just weaken the blue shell of cantrip that power all blue decks, not TC that isn't even used in a lot of them, like Miracle, Storm or Sneak and Show. If TC get banned, we just get back Miracle vs U tempo vs Elves exactly like before anyway.
This is a very good post. The thing is, though, that even if you've bought into some BGx/BWx attrition cards, you don't have to do that much to get into UR delver (for example). You can turn your Bobs, Lilianas, and extraneous duals into Forces and Volcs without much extra cost. The rest is commons and uncommons, and with the reprint of the Onslaught fetches, even if you can't get Tarns nothing else is more than what, 12-15 bucks? Heck, even the Junk Nic Fit list I played at the GP is less than $100 under the cost of the stock UR delver list and it doesn't play Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, or Tarmogoyf. (Granted, I do play Karakas and one Lili in the board, but it's still negligibly close for a Legacy player).
Of course, if everyone did that, prices on Force and Volc would go up. But just theoretically at this point, you could do that. Still that isn't fun for anyone. Even the people who like blue-based strategies probably would tire of playing the near-mirror all the time. Just look at the comments in the coverage thread when SCG was running delver after delver.
That's why everyone should want WoTC to take some action now. Maybe it's Brainstorm, maybe it's Delver, maybe it's Ponder. But something has to be done because like you said, every new printing invalidates old archetypes. I mean, I'm not even sure Treasure Cruise is the true culprit. Monastery Swiftspear is insanely good when you can chain one-mana spells into it (or worse, more than one).
As someone who owns and plays lands myself, I can tell you the viability of that archetype has not changed much. It's just as good now as it was pre-treasuire cruise. the strongest forms of GY hate are a bit passe' right now and many former Pox, Rock, Aggro loam players are switching to lands because their deck of choice is now tier 3 or below so you're seeing it represented more.
Also, what evidence do you have that MUD decks appear more often now? The same ppl who've always played MUD still play MUD, and 1 fluky top 8ing does not a contender make. Chalice decks are chalice decks. They have the power level to beat blue/combo but not consistently so.
The restrictions on treasure cruise are not many. It basically slots right in as a 1-4 of in most any BS, Ponder, Force deck, being slightly better in those that also toss in gitax, and run countermagic. midrange decks can make great use of TC just like UR delver. And if they don't want cruise, they probably want Dig, which delivers a similar if not even more powerful effect for the decks that want it.
I mean... If the solution is "trade all of your non blue thingsfor blue things, then you'll have fun!" Then why play at all?
He specifically said it wasn't fun
I would really enjoy if there was an attrition style deck that was viable. Chains of Mephistohpeles reprint please.
I said it seems because the last two tournaments i watched (GP and SGC not sure where) had Slivers, 2 MUD, 2 copies of lands iirc, more storm and other things than i remember. Grantly, i watched much less before since it was blue tempo vs blue tempo all the time, and started watching more legacy again lately after TC got printed so my perception is skewed and there were many of those decks (as in, 1 or 2 every T8) even before.
Apparently reading comprehension isn't a strength ofmine
Haha. Trust me, the availability of Chains of mephistopheles is NOT what is holding back the viability of attrition style decks. Chains is a sweet old card but it's just not good in practice. I was once bright eyed and bushy tailed as you, and bought into a pair of these bad boys. Needless to say I no longer own them..
Well, that makes me feel good about the current state of my Pox deck ;)
Though I don't think delver is "constantly winning everything," I agree with this post. I don't think blue drawing cards is the problem per se, though treasure cruise is a bit much, but the fact that they can protect the creatures which are already hard to kill (tnn, geist of saint traft), small investment (delver at one mana) or simple card advantage (scm) is what I find hard to deal with. Yes, we non-blue players have the answers to them, but they are 1) narrow, 2) vulnerable to counter spell. It is the saddest thing when our council's judgement gets forced while tnn with jitte is bashing through tarm, knight of the reliquary, thalia, wild nacatl, mom and the like.
It's true. As someone who has actually played 4x Chains in a list, the card isn't actually great - the reason is it still doesn't stop Delver from just killing you.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
Chains had a lot of potential that people couldn't unlock in the old meta also. The classic list was Chains of Mephistopheles - Land Tax - Balance - Howling Mine - Winter Orb - Relic Barrier - Icy Manipulator with Racks and/or Black Vises as the kill mechanism. It had huge redundancies built in to gain card advantage and to make opposing creatures miserable and it got it's effect into play consistently. The effect just wasn't strong enough fast enough even with Black Lotus, Moxes and Sol Ring powering it out. Too many cards in the list that did something but not enough unless a couple of other cards were out.
TL;dr - Chains of Mephistopheles does nothing if both players are just playing Magic and avoiding making a play now and then that would be routine otherwise. That makes it very weak general hate and a really bad play if the opponent is already ahead.
The card does punish greedy players keeping bad hands because of cantrips though. I love the card, just wish I could avoid people calling the judge everytime I play it :p
From the Color Pie and Disruption thread:
In response to this, I can't say much: I started playing MtG during Lorwyn and got competitive around the time that Halimar Depths was a thing in standard.Sylvan Library is not good enough, which is why you don't see a lot of good lists playing 4x Sylvan Library. It lands too late to help you straighten out a bad draw when you're on the draw. The other guy is already up and running and you're not fixing anything until after his turn 3. This is true in a hyper-organized meta in which the blue shell dictates that turn 3 is too late to fix things.
A Sylvan Library effect that casts forand allows you to look at the top 3 cards during your second upkeep (Mirri's Guile) is not good enough.
An effect that allowed you to look at the top 3 cards and pay 4 life to put one in hand during your upkeep is what you need to keep up with the blue shells Ponders and Brainstorms. Even then it might not be good enough because it would be unusable against Burn and a lot of fast aggro, whereas Ponder and Brainstorm are equally good against all archetypes.
The Legacy meta is too engineered around the mull and the blue shell at this point. That's what takes the majesty out of the game.
In the old single meta you only got to mull if you had all lands or no lands. The only cantrip effects available were Ancestral Recall x1 and Timewalk x1. There were no free counters available. There was lots of turn 1 and turn 2 creature disruption available (Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Paralyze, Balance, Boomerang, Spirit Link, etc.) There was lots of artifact disruption available (Crumble, Disenchant, Shatter, Energy Flux, Shatterstorm, etc.) There was a ton of fast mana available (Black Lotus, Moxes, Sol Ring, Dark Ritual, Mana Vault, etc.)
The first MTG World Championship in July of 1994 was won by Zak Dolan playing an early version of the blue shell. This despite all the fast mana and heavy combos and big creatures available turn 1. How did he do it? He build a solid list with 27 mana sources and 33 spells around UW and he slowly wore people down.
The second MTG World Championship in July of 1995 was won by Brian Weissman playing a more evolved version of the blue shell. This despite all the fast mana and heavy combos and big creatures available turn 1. How did he do it? He splashed red into the UW shell and added Jayemdae Tomes to give him card advantage late and inevitability. He was also playing 27 mana sources and 33 spells.
WotC's response to all of this was to dumb the game down by removing all the fast mana (except Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mishra's Workshop) because somehow the fast mana was the root of Magic's problems, not the fact that it is a game of chance in which 15 cards out of the 60 you see will in all probability win or lose for you most of the time.
That meta, before WotC dumbed everything down was a much better meta than anything we have seen since. The two blue shell lists won because nobody really saw them coming. The internet basically consisted of Prodigy and Compuserve and Listserv at that point and almost nobody was tuned in. If that meta had been allowed to evolve appropriately we'd have come closer to the real vision of Magic, when it was created, than we have at any point since.
I'd go on a long explanation of the Black/Green/Blue list that I was developing at the time of the split but that would be self-serving. Suffice it to say that I got to the rounds of 16 twice in a row at 512+ person single elimination tourneys with it and got ousted by extremely efficient Burn each time after knocking off carbon copy after carbon copy of "The Deck" to get there.
It was a great meta and it had the early version of the blue shell and was not dominated by it despite Dolan and Weissman's achievements. Then everything went to hell and somehow out of that we got a meta in which the blue shell is dominant and the only thing that matters. That's like a 20 year rolling nightmare at this point.
However, I have to say that Sylvan Library is pretty strong by itself, and multiples generally don't contribute much to it. Mirri's Guile is pretty much a Green Top with timing restrictions in exchange for minimal mana investment, so I can see why it wouldn't be good enough.
Anyhow, I'll post in the Shitty Card Creation thread to give an idea of what I'm talking about in terms of giving other colors access to a Brainstorm affect, and possibly a fixed Brainstorm so that if it is banned, it won't cause too much splash damage to decks that use Brainstorm as a glue.
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