All B/R update speculation.

[FoolofaTook]

WotC did make one oh-so-close to fixing some problems card a couple of sets ago but they chickened out on the casting cost.

Grisly Salvage would have been a major fixer for Green and Black if it was 1cc and cost / instead of . That would have been a major draw fixer for black and green lists at 1cc as an instant. At 2cc it is just too slow.

[Zombie]

WotC did make one oh-so-close to fixing some problems card a couple of sets ago but they chickened out on the casting cost.

Grisly Salvage would have been a major fixer for Green and Black if it was 1cc and cost / instead of . That would have been a major draw fixer for black and green lists at 1cc as an instant. At 2cc it is just too slow.

It did do a ton of work in Standard.

[FoolofaTook]

It did do a ton of work in Standard.

See, this is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. Grisly Salvage is great in Standard but mediocre to nearly unplayable in Legacy and Modern. Then Treasure Cruise is printed to yawns in Standard but it drives the eternal formats.

Why does WotC keep doing stuff like this? Do they not respect their own product enough to see what they're doing to it?

And yes, I get that they print OP blue crap when they want to drive attendance at eternal events (Jace in 2010, Treasure Cruise this year) up but that always backfires on them in the end. Jace drove players out of Standard until WotC had to ban him there due to declining attendance. Treasure Cruise may have just contributed to a huge Grand Prix event but it's also gotten the blue shell haters in a bigger lather than anything WotC has done in years.

Really, why ban things like Survival of the Fittest in Legacy and Deathrite Shaman in Modern when you're still printing stupid blue stuff? What's the point? SotF was banned in Legacy because WotC thought it was too consistent and would lead to a meta defined by SotF. Well, why not have that meta instead of the blue shell? All SotF lists weren't going to be cookie-cutter, even with Vengevine out there. DRS was banned in Modern because it was creating too many Golgari lists with red or white splashed in. Well, why not have that meta? It certainly can't be worse than the Delver + combo-midrange meta that Modern has turned into.

[Barook]

See, this is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. Grisly Salvage is great in Standard but mediocre to nearly unplayable in Legacy and Modern. Then Treasure Cruise is printed to yawns in Standard but it drives the eternal formats.

Why does WotC keep doing stuff like this? Do they not respect their own product enough to see what they're doing to it?

And yes, I get that they print OP blue crap when they want to drive attendance at eternal events (Jace in 2010, Treasure Cruise this year) up but that always backfires on them in the end. Jace drove players out of Standard until WotC had to ban him there due to declining attendance. Treasure Cruise may have just contributed to a huge Grand Prix event but it's also gotten the blue shell haters in a bigger lather than anything WotC has done in years.

Really, why ban things like Survival of the Fittest in Legacy and Deathrite Shaman in Modern when you're still printing stupid blue stuff? What's the point? SotF was banned in Legacy because WotC thought it was too consistent and would lead to a meta defined by SotF. Well, why not have that meta instead of the blue shell? All SotF lists weren't going to be cookie-cutter, even with Vengevine out there. DRS was banned in Modern because it was creating too many Golgari lists with red or white splashed in. Well, why not have that meta? It certainly can't be worse than the Delver + combo-midrange meta that Modern has turned into.

The better question is which retard in R&D thought that Delve on a sorcery speed recall is a good idea. They learned absolutely nothing from Tarmogoyf.

[rufus]

The better question is which retard in R&D thought that Delve on a sorcery speed recall is a good idea. They learned absolutely nothing from Tarmogoyf.

Or Tombstalker... except maybe that the next delve cards should be Awesome(tm).

[Darkenslight]

The better question is which retard in R&D thought that Delve on a sorcery speed recall is a good idea. They learned absolutely nothing from Tarmogoyf.

Correction: they learned the wrong lesson.

[Lord Seth]

See, this is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. Grisly Salvage is great in Standard but mediocre to nearly unplayable in Legacy and Modern. Then Treasure Cruise is printed to yawns in Standard but it drives the eternal formats.

Why does WotC keep doing stuff like this? Do they not respect their own product enough to see what they're doing to it?

I'm confused what the issue here is. The fact that some cards that are great in Standard aren't great in other formats and the fact that some cards that are weak in Standard are great in other formats? What's the problem with that? Am I missing something?

And yes, I get that they print OP blue crap when they want to drive attendance at eternal events (Jace in 2010, Treasure Cruise this year) up but that always backfires on them in the end.

I doubt they were printed to try to drive attendance at eternal events. Jace was printed because they wanted to make something to beat Jund (the dominant deck at the type) as well as push Blue forward because it had been so weakened in Shards of Alara (due to Faeries being such a problem causing them to scale back its power)). Additionally, he also suffered from the "last minute change that wasn't playtested enough" when his +2 got changed to fateseal.

Jace drove players out of Standard until WotC had to ban him there due to declining attendance.

Actually, Caw-Blade was what drove players out of Standard. Jace was great, but he was only a part of that deck's power. The fact that after Batterskull got printed, it became a one-deck metagame is what drove people out of Standard (before Batterskull there was still Valakut Ramp as a major force in the format). Jace was only part of it.

Treasure Cruise may have just contributed to a huge Grand Prix event but it's also gotten the blue shell haters in a bigger lather than anything WotC has done in years.

I doubt Treasure Cruise make the Grand Prix so popular. Star City Games plus the general scarcity of Legacy Grand Prix did that.

DRS was banned in Modern because it was creating too many Golgari lists with red or white splashed in. Well, why not have that meta? It certainly can't be worse than the Delver + combo-midrange meta that Modern has turned into.

I played in that meta, and I can tell you right now: It really was worse.

Well, not worse for me, personally, because my deck was better positioned. But it was worse than what's currently going on.

A Bloodbraid Elf unban might not be bad, though.

[Dice_Box]

I would rather see new cards push the envelope and find themselves banned then have nothing printed for us ever again.

Asking why Wizards did not catch this is foolish, I am thankful for the shake up and even if it goes away, glad even for a short while things changed.

[Finn]

I don't think it is foolish (not polish; wtf auto-correct) to expect wizards to know treasure cruise would be ridiculous. I made one deck, not even an especially good one, and tried the card for under an hour. That is how much effort it took me to discover that it was broken. They have whole teams, plural, of people whose job it is to get this right. Getting new cards right is WHAT THE COMPANY DOES.

It is tantamount to a reporter who sucks at reporting or a fisherman who can't catch fish. They really do need to catch the obvious stuff.

[testing32]

It is tantamount to a reporter who sucks at reporting or a fisherman who can't catch fish. They really do need to catch the obvious stuff.

TC is fine

[Finn]

Yep. Treasure Cruise is fine. Great, amazing, perfect when you got it. But anyone else looking at you when you are using it knows that shit ain't right. Just like cocaine.

[testing32]

Yep. Treasure Cruise is fine. Great, amazing, perfect when you got it. But anyone else looking at you when you are using it knows that shit ain't right. Just like cocaine.

Ok, maybe I should elaborate. TC isn't even close to the most widely played or best blue card. It's not even close to the best card in the best TC deck (UR).

So, I see talk of "shit ain't right" I agree with you but there are bigger problems than TC. TC doesn't help though.

[MGB]

If you ever listen to Mark Rosewater's podcasts about design & development, you'll realize that they just don't test for eternal formats. According to him, 98% of the testing is done solely to determine the impact of new printings on the Standard, Block, Sealed and Limited environments.

I'm sure they did plenty of testing of Treasure Cruise in the current Type 2 format with minimal cantrips, and determined that it was fair and only moderately playable (which it is). The fact that it is basically broken in Legacy with the sheer amount of cantrips was simply not a priority for them to determine through testing.

[Lord Seth]

I don't think it is polish to expect wizards to know treasure cruise would be ridiculous. I made one deck, not even an especially good one, and tried the card for under an hour. That is how much effort it took me to discover that it was broken. They have whole teams, plural, of people whose job it is to get this right. Getting new cards right is WHAT THE COMPANY DOES.

Thing is, they did get it right for what they were testing for. They were testing for Standard (and Limited) and correctly decided that the card was not a problem in that environment. They've stated over and over again they don't test much if at all for Modern or Legacy, just Standard and Limited.

Also, I strongly disagree that Treasure Cruise is broken in Legacy. Certainly it's extremely powerful, but so are plenty of cards that are legal. It isn't any more "broken" than the rest of the format. Modern is a little more arguable, but it does seem like the metagame is settling down a bit more and people have adapted to the card, with UR Delver's metagame share being dramatically lower than what it was a month ago.

[sjmcc13]

If you ever listen to Mark Rosewater's podcasts about design & development, you'll realize that they just don't test for eternal formats. According to him, 98% of the testing is done solely to determine the impact of new printings on the Standard, Block, Sealed and Limited environments.

There is a difference between not testing for eternal formats, and throwing out the lessons of the past by making cards that those lessons and common sense say are obviously mistakes.

Treasure Cruise is a mistake, plain and simple, but it is also so obvious a mistake if you know anything about eternal formats and the history of the game that R&D has absolutely no excuse for not realizing it was a mistake. cheap draw 3's are broken or problematic. They have known this since the first Banned and Restricted lists was made. Delve is a mechanic that makes things cheap. A draw 3 with delve is an instant warning sign for anyone with any common sense. I can understand not testing most of the sets for eternal formats, but and card that hits any of the warning signs for the lessons of the past of magic (like having cards with similar effects currently being banned in eternal formats) needs to at least be considered during testing.

The problems with Treasure Cruise were discovered so fast is is not funny. The card is obviously a mistake for any format where your deck is almost all creatures and lands. It's existence means either R&D is incompetent or they made the card the card on purpose, both possibilities are bad for player confidence in the game.

Worse is that this is not the first card in recent years that they should have caught and did not. Delver is an obvious mistake, a 1 mana 3 power with evasion is and no real draw backs should have been caught. Grisslebrand is to close to Bargain with legs (well wings which is worse) that they should have tested it more, Making JtMS shortly after restricting BS and Ponder in vintage was a major WTF moment where they should have looked at the card closer, the rest of his abilities just make it worse.

I have long since some to the belief that the do not test for eternal formats comment is little more than an attempt to mask R&D's incompetence and laziness, and think MaRo is a has been way past his prime. If a card takes 6 months to make an impact, or is broken in connection with weak, obscure or all but forgotten cards then not testing is a valid excuse, if you can just slap 3-4 copies in a known deck type and that takes the deck over the edge then not testing is not an excuse, if there have been similar problem cards in the past then not testing is not a valid excuse because you should have known of the potential.

TC should have been cheaper and only draw 2. If it was Thoughtcast with delve instead of affinity I doubt it would have been broken, and it would likely have still been good in std and probably modern.

[Finn]

Back when wizards was just a few guys with mismatched socks, they had the luxury of alpha testing Alpha with no restrictions on which cards were allowed to be used in which quantities. It must have been a blast. But there is this story (that I think Skaff Elias tells) about when they first discovered that Giant Growths were too good. And a few weeks later, they found out that actually War Mammoths were way too good. Then it was like Uthden Trolls or something. Turns out, Ancestral Recall was a popular filler card among several of the playtesters. They would routinely drop 4-6 in a deck of 40-50 cards. And amazingly, those were the same guys who continued to bust these ordinary cards. It was not until later that they figured out what was making this happen. But once they took out the ARs, the decks were not very good at all.

UR Delver was not very good before and URW Delver, with its pathetic manabase had fallen out of favor. Did the wind blow chance their way? No. They are just the two best decks for Treasure Cruise.

You can't give people draw 3 for . UR Delver can maintain card advantage over Miracles. Miracles, man; the de-facto control deck of the format. You can't have aggro decks able to do that and expect a healthy environment.

When Caleb Durward put Vengevines in Survival of the Fittest something eerily similar happened. His deck was able to deal damage faster than Zoo, still a potent force at the time. And he had counterspells, Brainstorm, and company. That is a big no-no.

They should have known. It simply would not have taken much effort to get this card right. Now it is time to do what they do when they fuck up.

[kingsey]

When is the next update?

And what do you think the chances of bargain coming off the banned list?

[Lord Seth]

There is a difference between not testing for eternal formats, and throwing out the lessons of the past by making cards that those lessons and common sense say are obviously mistakes.

Odd you say it's "obviously" a mistake when there was a lot of skepticism by Legacy players initially. Obviously they were shut up when it put up results quickly, but it's not like it's as "obvious" as you claim it was.

Treasure Cruise is a mistake, plain and simple, but it is also so obvious a mistake if you know anything about eternal formats and the history of the game that R&D has absolutely no excuse for not realizing it was a mistake. cheap draw 3's are broken or problematic. They have known this since the first Banned and Restricted lists was made. Delve is a mechanic that makes things cheap. A draw 3 with delve is an instant warning sign for anyone with any common sense. I can understand not testing most of the sets for eternal formats, but and card that hits any of the warning signs for the lessons of the past of magic (like having cards with similar effects currently being banned in eternal formats) needs to at least be considered during testing.

You seem to be under the odd impression that they particularly care what effect a card has on Legacy. They've demonstrated time and time again, for better or for worse, that it's not a format they care much about. While this does have the negative effect of lack of testing for the format, it also has the positive effect of the format being less micro-managed, which Legacy players appear to like.

The problems with Treasure Cruise were discovered so fast is is not funny. The card is obviously a mistake for any format where your deck is almost all creatures and lands.

Huh? Almost all creatures and lands? Aren't those the decks that would be least interested in Treasure Cruise? I'm confused.

It's existence means either R&D is incompetent or they made the card the card on purpose, both possibilities are bad for player confidence in the game.

Or maybe it's exactly what they've said: They care principally about Standard and Limited. Their philosophy towards the other formats is largely "if a card is too good, we'll ban it." They do seem to pay a little more attention to Modern, but that's it.

And, you know, I'd like to point out again... Treasure Cruise is incredibly powerful, but it's not really any more broken than the rest of Legacy. It's not even the best card in the decks that do play it. The fact people go on and on about how broken it is when something like Brainstorm is actually better (and sees substantially more play) is rather baffling. I guess Treasure Cruise is the "new kid on the block" but let's not pretend that it's somehow the most broken card in the format.

There were 10 copies of Treasure Cruise in the GP New Jersey Top 8. There were 28 copies of Brainstorm. How in the world people can whine and complain about Treasure Cruise being so overpowered but being oddly okay with Brainstorm is highly confusing.

Worse is that this is not the first card in recent years that they should have caught and did not. Delver is an obvious mistake, a 1 mana 3 power with evasion is and no real draw backs should have been caught.

Oh for the love of...Delver absolutely has real drawbacks. True, the decks that run it try their hardest to minimize the drawbacks, but there are still going to be those times your Delver stubbornly refuses to transform turn after turn.

If it has "no real drawbacks" then every deck would be playing it. Every deck is not playing it. You therefore cannot claim it has no real drawbacks. It sees play in the decks that can minimize those drawbacks. That's often how cards are good: They can really only work in certain decks, but they work really well in those decks. The balancing factor is that they can only really work well in certain decks.

Now, it might be more fair to point out that Delver, combined with Ponder, was able to rule over Standard for a season. That's something that maybe they should have noticed better. Then again, that was also a spectacular Standard season in my opinion, so I can't exactly fault them for it.

Grisslebrand is to close to Bargain with legs (well wings which is worse) that they should have tested it more,

They obviously did test it well for Standard because it was really never an issue there. There were just better targets for the reanimation spells.

Making JtMS shortly after restricting BS and Ponder in vintage was a major WTF moment where they should have looked at the card closer, the rest of his abilities just make it worse.

Jace is not even remotely comparable to Brainstorm or Ponder. He costs 4 freaking mana. He's still an incredibly powerful card, but there's a huge difference between an Instant-speed Brainstorm for one mana and a Sorcery-speed Brainstorm for 4 mana. True, Jace can do other things besides Brainstorm, but they're not really a comparison that makes any sense.

Additionally, you bring up Vintage as if that's a format they care--or maybe even should care--about much. They've been extremely hands off in Vintage, even more so in Legacy.

And, yet again, as I've stated repeatedly... Treasure Cruise isn't any more crazy than the stuff already in the format. If Treasure Cruise needs a ban, then there's several other better cards that need a ban as well.

The funny thing is, if they got all the cards "right" for Legacy starting with Worldwake (the oldest set a card you list is from), then there would've been basically nothing added for the format in the past 4 or so years. Getting the cards "right" leads to sets like Gatecrash or Dragon's Maze, where everything is neutered and nothing really sees Legacy play. And then the Legacy players all complain about the sets being dull and boring.

[jafar]

Staples for legacy:

4x Relic of progenitus
4x Sudden shock


Bye

[Darkenslight]

If you ever listen to Mark Rosewater's podcasts about design & development, you'll realize that they just don't test for eternal formats. According to him, 98% of the testing is done solely to determine the impact of new printings on the Standard, Block, Sealed and Limited environments.

I'm sure they did plenty of testing of Treasure Cruise in the current Type 2 format with minimal cantrips, and determined that it was fair and only moderately playable (which it is). The fact that it is basically broken in Legacy with the sheer amount of cantrips was simply not a priority for them to determine through testing.

It isn't even fair there, though it's by no means oppressive in Standard, because hard aggro is A Thing. I mean, I can easily cast a turn 3 TC in Standard with either UW Heroic, Jeskai combo or even Sultai (BUG) Reanimator. And yes, Wizards sometimes derps (see: Innistrad's cheap blue stuff, Umezawa's Pointéd Stick of Doom)