All B/R update speculation.

[Gheizen64]

Yep. Treasure Cruise is fine. Great, amazing, perfect when you got it. But anyone else looking at you when you are using it knows that shit ain't right. Just like cocaine.

Are we really arguing that a situational draw engine for blue deck is now broken? Can i remember everyone that this card see about a third the play that BS does, and half Ponder's one? Shall i remember that the decks that are using it are all-in decks that use it to refill hands for bolts, or decks which have no other card advantage engines like Countertop? The only effective thing TC did was killing BUG cascade for UR delver. Good fucking riddance. And if you're seeing a lot of TCs is probably because UR delver is one of the cheapest, but still good, legacy decks. God may save us from all those poor plebians that came to ruin our format.

We'll talk when the card see play 24+ copies for T8 on average for 3 years at least, cause that's the stnadard BS has used us to.

[testing32]

Are we really arguing that a situational draw engine for blue deck is now broken? Can i remember everyone that this card see about a third the play that BS does, and half Ponder's one? Shall i remember that the decks that are using it are all-in decks that use it to refill hands for bolts, or decks which have no other card advantage engines like Countertop? The only effective thing TC did was killing BUG cascade for UR delver. Good fucking riddance. And if you're seeing a lot of TCs is probably because UR delver is one of the cheapest, but still good, legacy decks. God may save us from all those poor plebians that came to ruin our format.

We'll talk when the card see play 24+ copies for T8 on average for 3 years at least, cause that's the stnadard BS has used us to.

Agreed. As far as I'm concerned before anything gets banned it needs to pass the "better than brainstorm" test, which TC fails miserably.

[gainsay]

I think cards shouldn't be printed if it's obvious that they won't be useful in eternal formats. Otherwise they will only be playable for a year or two

[FoolofaTook]

The problem with Treasure Cruise is that we're very early in its cycle at this point. People have had only 10 weeks to brew with it and the first list that it powered was the obvious one, a list that will likely be optimized as people further develop it.

The odds are very good that Treasure Cruise's penetration in the meta will increase as other lists that can make good use of it figure out how to incorporate it for the sheer power of draw 3 for on turn 3 or later. It's not like there aren't a ton of lists that fill the bin fast and could optimize to fill it a little faster for that kind of power.

I'm guessing that by this time next year the blue shell is widely seen as Brainstorm, Force of Will, Ponder and either Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time depending on the velocity of the list in question.

[Barook]

Since the other thread was closed, I'm going to post here:

As far as format diversity is concerned, the "Big 3" suppressors of the format are:

- Delver
- Terminus
- Show & Tell

If you want a more diverse format, ban at least Brainstorm and Delver.

- Delver has already proven in other formats that it's viable on the basis of shitty cantrips (banning Brainstorm alone would do nothing) and its the starting point where blue truely went out of control. The only way to really make it go away would be a ban, forcing people to look at their Delver shells which they can't ride to victory on the back of 1 mana 3/2s anymore. "Blue shell + Delver + the most powerful in-color threats and removal spells of choice"-deck without its eponym would have to diversify its threats alot more.

- The absence of Brainstorm would weaken the "blue shell", but also hit Miracles (since they can't shuffle chaff away/set up naturally drawn miracles) and S&T (can't trade junk for gas anymore), being a nerf to said strategies without downright killing them.

TC ban is reasonable as well. Ponder and DTT are more debatable.

[Ellomdian]

- The absence of Brainstorm would weaken the "blue shell"

I hate this argument, not only because it incorrectly assumes there is some prototypical "shell" Blue decks are built around. If your definition of "shell" is Fetches and Brainstorms, you are playing the wrong game.

Making the format weaker across the board because it panders to niche strategies (which still put up regular, winning results!) is a flawed idea.

Unban something, ignore the people complaining about Cruise like we ignored the people complaining about TNN, and play some Magic.

[CabalTherapy]

Since the other thread was closed, I'm going to post here:

As far as format diversity is concerned, the "Big 3" suppressors of the format are:

- Delver
- Terminus
- Show & Tell

If you want a more diverse format, ban at least Brainstorm and Delver.

- Delver has already proven in other formats that it's viable on the basis of shitty cantrips (banning Brainstorm alone would do nothing) and its the starting point where blue truely went out of control. The only way to really make it go away would be a ban, forcing people to look at their Delver shells which they can't ride to victory on the back of 1 mana 3/2s anymore. "Blue shell + Delver + the most powerful in-color threats and removal spells of choice"-deck without its eponym would have to diversify its threats alot more.

- The absence of Brainstorm would weaken the "blue shell", but also hit Miracles (since they can't shuffle chaff away/set up naturally drawn miracles) and S&T (can't trade junk for gas anymore), being a nerf to said strategies without downright killing them.

TC ban is reasonable as well. Ponder and DTT are more debatable.

WTF did I just read. You know, we are talking about Legacy, mate.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

To elaborate on my previous post, lets say 75% of the field runs the classic 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force, 8 Fetches, 4 Duals. Thats 24/60*3/4 or 30% according to my formula. Now, lets say 50% of the meta are running 4 Delver 4 Daze 4 Cruise and 4 wasteland in addition to that shell. Thats 40/60*1/2 or 33.3_%.

Not wholly accurate again, just an example of what im talking bout

From the now closed poll.

Basically, this is why Delver should be banned. Decks based around the flying bugman have a core that takes up most of the deck and since the deck takes up a good chunk of the metagame as evidenced by GP day 2 decks, that core itself has a higher penetration in the meta.

[Higgs]

Maybe archiving this one and opening up the other one would be more beneficial as demonstrated by the results that were coming out of the new poll. We've had enough of the same circular discussions around brainstorm. An updated poll would give a fresh spin on the discussion imo.

Edit: I voted for Delver on the other poll because of the shitloads of different variations of Delver decks all over the place. And as opposed to Brainstorm, which has a larger format saturation but promotes different strategies and entirely different archetypes, Delver decks are just different colors of the same shit. All of the Delver decks are playing the same game with tactical variations.

[TsumiBand]

I hate this argument, not only because it incorrectly assumes there is some prototypical "shell" Blue decks are built around. If your definition of "shell" is Fetches and Brainstorms, you are playing the wrong game.

Making the format weaker across the board because it panders to niche strategies (which still put up regular, winning results!) is a flawed idea.

Unban something, ignore the people complaining about Cruise like we ignored the people complaining about TNN, and play some Magic.

What would you unban that (a) powers up the format (b) doesn't go in a deck with BS/FoW/Ponder + fetches? I mean I miss SotF too but it isn't like it never got played with Tropicals.

I don't think there's anything incorrect about assuming there's a "Blue shell" - it is clear just looking at the decks putting up the most numbers and enjoying the most success right now that decks with Islands are carting around 12 - 20 of the same cards. Compare to other colors, where playing Plains does not guarantee the inclusion of D&T staples, or playing Green does not mandate an "Elf shell" of any kind - there are decks, and then there are Blue-based decks.

Look at how people are changing tactics. A few years ago people would have dismissed maindecking REBs as incredibly poor; however it's starting to become more and more common to see nonzero REB/Pyroblast in the main and more on the side. I'm not citing sources, we're all grown-ups, Google your own damn Legacy top 8 results over a period of time, there are dozens of websites for that. If a bulk of your matches are going to be X-color Delver, Terminus, S&T, Stoneblade, or any given Brainstorm-driven deck, then AFAIC that's a fine tactic; I've always looked at the Elemental Blasts as being only as limited as cards like Swords to Plowshares. They address a single type of card in a cheap and specific way, and their playability is entirely determined by the prevalence of the targeted card type/card color.

I mean at what point does such a narrow strategy's viability beg the question of where the real problems are in the format? Yeah, we all come here to play Big Kid Spells, I won't argue that, but are we really interested in having decks that are upwards of 50% alike in business spells that facilitate slightly-different win conditions? That sounds an awful lot like Vintage. "Fully powered" lists and all that shit; playing off-color Moxen > not playing all of them, full set of Power because who doesn't want that extra turn and 3 cards, then your actual matchup comes down to like 8 cards difference (oh look, Oath of Druids in the main, why this pile is COMPLETELY different from the last fully powered deck I played against, trololol)

[JanoschEausH]

What I don't get: If Brainstorm becomes banned, many people will abandon the Legacy format, because Legacy is a format of passion. People love their decks. They propably spent thousands of dollars on their beloved decks. If my deck (yea I have only 1 deck and I think this is the norm) would become unplayable because of Bannings, I would rather sell my cards and quit, then building another deck. Legacy lives because it gets medial attention through SCG and because people can play their beloved decks. Kill Brainstorm and you kill Legacy. Thats it.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Maybe archiving this one and opening up the other one would be more beneficial as demonstrated by the results that were coming out of the new poll. We've had enough of the same circular discussions around brainstorm. An updated poll would give a fresh spin on the discussion imo.

Edit: I voted for Delver on the other poll because of the shitloads of different variations of Delver decks all over the place. And as opposed to Brainstorm, which has a larger format saturation but promotes different strategies and entirely different archetypes, Delver decks are just different colors of the same shit. All of the Delver decks are playing the same game with tactical variations.

My point exactly: just trying to put some numbers behind it. While Brainstorm is very popular and rightly so, one must also look at the percentage of cores within the meta and how much space that core takes up within each deck. Then you aim for the card that is almost exclusive to that core (in this case, Delver) if the core itself has a high presence.

[Barook]

Legacy lives because it gets medial attention through SCG and because people can play their beloved decks. Kill Brainstorm and you kill Legacy. Thats it.

Well, good thing that SCG just killed the vast majority of their Legacy Opens, including coverage.

And I believe the number of people who would actually quit the format over Brainstorm is vastly exaggerated. Just because they say so on an internet forum doesn't mean they would actually do it, especially after thousands of dollars invested.

I could also claim that I'd dance naked in the streets when Brainstorm gets banned, but that doesn't mean I'd actually do it.

[iGrok]

God, I feel so vindicated by the other poll. Delver is the biggest issue with the format right now. Take it out, blue decks get slower, which lets the other colors compete. Blue still has card selection, but green/black have raw power. They just need time to get there, and delver is keeping them from having that time.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Well, good thing that SCG just killed the vast majority of their Legacy Opens, including coverage.

And I believe the number of people who would actually quit the format over Brainstorm is vastly exaggerated. Just because they say so on an internet forum doesn't mean they would actually do it, especially after thousands of dollars invested.

I could also claim that I'd dance naked in the streets when Brainstorm gets banned, but that doesn't mean I'd actually do it.

Might be good for a distraction: we could push Legacy while SCG amd WotC are laughing!

Regardless of bans or unbans, Ill still play this format because I love playing it.

[Sylphnir]

What I don't get: If Brainstorm becomes banned, many people will abandon the Legacy format, because Legacy is a format of passion. People love their decks. They propably spent thousands of dollars on their beloved decks. If my deck (yea I have only 1 deck and I think this is the norm) would become unplayable because of Bannings, I would rather sell my cards and quit, then building another deck. Legacy lives because it gets medial attention through SCG and because people can play their beloved decks. Kill Brainstorm and you kill Legacy. Thats it.

I don't think popularity should ever take precedence over balancing though.
Otherwise please unban the entire P9. Everyone loves them! And coincidently I already own half of them.
You can't afford the ensuing metagame? Go play modern.
(attention: this is NOT a serious suggestion)

I must admit that I voted Delver in the closed poll/thread mostly because imo all double-faced cards are hideous atrocities that shouldn't exist to begin with.
Be it Delver of Secrets or Reckless Waif. I don't want to see any of them ever again.
Obviously this isn't the kind of input we should base a serious discussion on either. People vote on public polls for stupid reasons.

[Gheizen64]

I think that if I was in charge of the format, I'd ban fetchlands and wasteland.

I don't really think you can ban an iconic card like Brainstorm. It is the defining card of legacy. I think you want to weaken the blue decks, in general, overall. Banning fetchlands weakens Brainstorm greatly and balances the format in that way.

You also reduce the amount of shuffling. Shuffling is my least favorite thing in magic. Fetchlands just put minute long breaks at inopportune points in the game.

Banning fetchlands does make the mana worse. As a result I like banning Wasteland, since it feels less necessary to punish greedy manabases.

Because Wastes isn't iconic at all. #Pillaroftheformat #GoPlayModern #Justplayit #Stopwhine #SomethingnonsensicalaboutVintage

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I must admit that I voted Delver in the closed poll/thread mostly because imo all double-faced cards are hideous atrocities that shouldn't exist to begin with.
Be it Delver of Secrets or Reckless Waif. I don't want to see any of them ever again.
Obviously this isn't the kind of input we should base a serious discussion on either. People vote on public polls for stupid reasons.

Yep, even if Delver was 1/1 for three that transforms into 2/2 banding, I'd wanted it to never exist along with the other transfrom cards. They are woefully bad design choice and the last thing I'd ever imagine in non-Un MtG. Part of what makes a card a card game was lost when the easily-distinguished-by-different-backsides emerged.
Also, that thread is closed? Hurry up, lets make a new one... :)

I dislike the recuring joke of "go play Modern". In fact the more I think about it, the more reasonable idea it is.
Legacy is one of the most stale formats, if not the most stale one (I don't play Vintage, as I find it silly to own €50k in cards just to play one eight-men four-rounder per year; I simply don't believe that the fun with P9andStuff is worthy the price, but to each his own), ok, back on topic: as Legacy is the most stale/staticstationary format for quite obvious reasons (blue dominance, access to most powerful cards and thus a need to use the most powerful strategies, no rotations), it's really strange to expect that anything else than the best will be the best. (Tautology much?)

So anyone expecting that he'll experience a dynamic format there where is only the best and most efficient strategy allowed, is simply delusional. Really, the "go play Modern" is quite a solid advice. In fact it's not even enough, as "go play Limited" would be far more appropriate advice. That's where there's no staleness at all. An advantage: you don't even need to own any cards.

[iGrok]

Yep, even if Delver was 1/1 for three that transforms into 2/2 banding, I'd wanted it to never exist along with the other transfrom cards. They are woefully bad design choice and the last thing I'd ever imagine in non-Un MtG. Part of what makes a card a card game was lost when the easily-distinguished-by-different-backsides emerged.
Also, that thread is closed? Hurry up, lets make a new one... :)

I dislike the recuring joke of "go play Modern". In fact the more I think about it, the more reasonable idea it is.
Legacy is one of the most stale formats, if not the most stale one (I don't play Vintage, as I find it silly to own €50k in cards just to play one eight-men four-rounder per year; I simply don't believe that the fun with P9andStuff is worthy the price, but to each his own), ok, back on topic: as Legacy is the most stale/staticstationary format for quite obvious reasons (blue dominance, access to most powerful cards and thus a need to use the most powerful strategies, no rotations), it's really strange to expect that anything else than the best will be the best. (Tautology much?)

So anyone expecting that he'll experience a dynamic format there where is only the best and most efficient strategy allowed, is simply delusional. Really, the "go play Modern" is quite a solid advice. In fact it's not even enough, as "go play Limited" would be far more appropriate advice. That's where there's no staleness at all. An advantage: you don't even need to own any cards.

Not to defend Delver too much (since I want it axed), but the DFCs checklist cards is actually a pretty good solution. Especially since, if you're spending $3k on a UWR Delver list, you can afford to pay for altered checklist cards that actually look like Delvers.

Modern is a more stale format than Legacy, so I really wouldn't suggest that... but Limited is great, and if you don't like Legacy but have the cash, building a cube is a great option.

[nedleeds]

I don't really think you can ban an iconic card like Brainstorm. It is the defining card of legacy.

The 10 beta dual lands are the defining cards of Legacy.