Long time lurker, first time poster in this thread. I really want to thank Bryant Cook and Lemnear for developing this deck. It's a gentleman's pleasure to pilot. I've been testing/gold-fishing it for years and it finally seems time to unleash the vintage skills.
I pose this question to the more experienced players: has anyone tested a single grim tutor in the 75 somewhere? I'm almost sure it's not good enough being a 3-drop that costs you 3 life on the flip and on resolution, but I am tempted to test due to the fact that the only games I lose tend to be when I'm derdalling with blue cantrips into not what I want. I always seem to have the mana. Like I said, I'm ALMOST sure it's bad, but I have to ask if anyone's tested since it nags at me.
Which leads me to my testing observations ...
My thoughts so far:
The only thing different about my 75 from the OP/primer is the sideboard (3 card difference). I don't think carpet is worth it. Yeah it's great in the format right now, but I'm 8-0 against UR delver in tournament games and the only decks I lose to are reanimator and UW control, and to a lesser extent Esper with a loaded hand (Eg: thoughtseize, FoW, clique, daze, ect). (sometimes I do lose to variance/derdaly hands) Anyway, I don't think carpet is super in the matches I'm not winning. Needle just buys you a lot of time and messes with the worst matches. My current side looks like this:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor (I like to keep 1 for post ad nausea and a 4th non-burning answer)
1 Shattering spree (2 people at my local always plays chalice decks, and everyone(UW especially) bring in cannonist against me)
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
I'm thinking of cutting a swarm for another chain, I'd board in chain a lot more than I'd bring in swarm, I'm bringing a shit ton of cards in against UW already and I like ponders there, and finally, I like chaining something EoT and then therapying it away, or just winning w/ natural storm. Chain can also buy time or build storm, while zantid is good but doesn't auto beat counterbalance anyway, I'll rely on needles for that.
Crystal Vein/city of T is dumb. Just play carpet, it's so much better, it's like a green dark ritual/rite ever tun.
I'd say 3 out of every 4 wins I get against UR are from goblin tokens.
I messed around with Bribery in the side as a option for the LOLz against reanimator and LED-Dredge, but I don't think it's worth the slot. It does feel really really good though! Take Grissle Daddy -> Win! I've also taken Elesh Norn against ichorid and he couldn't win. Taking Iona if you can't be sure of a win is fun too. Anyway, I'm cutting out the antics since if I can burning for that I'll prolly win anyway and getting 2 blue is meh.Like I said, it was for the LOLz at locals.
If you're just picking this deck up, here are tips not in the primer (I think) that I'll share
1. it's always a good idea to leave an extra LED un-poped on ad nausea if you can because hellbent is a thing. Learned that the hard way. I know it seems obvious but the tunnel vision got me.
2. your opponents rite of flames count when you cast RoF, so read your cards I guess. In the mirror I was playing against a jedi and if I just chose the RoF off a probe-> cabal I would have won that turn.
3. AN is an instant, casting it EoT off dark rit is sometimes the play, when if they counter it you can next turn win now that they don't have a counter or you can just untap. Rare but be aware.
4. If you open up on a shaky hand, don't rely on BS if you don't already have the fetch, if you don't find it you'll prolly get stuck for two turns. When I switched from fetchbase to gemstones I realized this the hard way. If you're playing the 7/8 fetch I'd prolly go for it.
In general I'm going with the gemstones from here because I like guaranteed decay games 2-3, but man i miss the fetches and a single basic island for the derdle hands. If I cut swarms for chains/needles I just might go to 2 gemstones only.
P.S.
Does anyone have some data on how many goblins minimum are need against which decks T1? Or to I have to make graphs?
P.P.S.
Thanks again cook, you've come a long way since I met you at a Mana Leak Open and you were playing Tomb of Urami, LOLz. I remember trading you a Gemstone mine in Mass and thinking that the deck wouldn't get anymore broken cards that wouldn't get banned. I was wrong.
I hope people appreciated my attempt at contributions.
Team Awesome: Busting Toilets since 2009
Meth!
This deck is optimized for Burning Wish. In this deck Wish is miles better than Grim Tutor.Originally Posted by That nice guy
In ANT it's a different story, since ANT makes more mana, but has trouble making a lot of red mana.
This deck is good at casting Ad Nauseam. If you feel you have not enough business, you can try:
1. A second Ad Nauseam main deck.
2. Just put the Infernal in the main, like we used to have.
I personally feel it's completely fine to cut a Ponder. I know most here don't agree, but cantripping into cantrips is a thing, and TES doesn't like to do that as much as ANT does. I tried 3 Ponder once and it felt good. I should have won all my rounds that tourney. I didn't, but that was all my fault for not sequencing my plays properly and missing an obvious opportunity to grab the win.
Yes, it's been tested - both the cost and life loss are too great in an Ad Nauseam deck that already has such a high saturation of tutors. The effect is very powerful, which is what makes it not completely terrible. Note that some people in Europe only run 3 Burning Wish (with 4 MD Infernal Tutor) - I'm not saying this is correct, but I raise this point to illustrate that while tutor redundancy and density is a desirable trait, drawing multiples is very poor and the sweet spot (in my opinion) appears to be either 7 or 8 tutors in the 75. Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor are superior and fill those spots.
I agree with you. While I understand the logic behind Carpet of Flowers, there's less soft counters and Wasteland than ever before (although, the card is still very good against the remaining copies they do have). I too prefer Pithing Needle at the moment, particularly as Show and Tell is still moderately popular in my region. I am going to do some further testing before I make a final decision on this however.
Xantid Swarm isn't necessarily included in the sideboard for Miracles, even though Bryant has began bringing it in against them in recent times. I agree with Bryant in that, even if it doesn't perform that well against them, I feel it is better than a Ponder that would otherwise take that slot.
Its original purpose (which it is still stellar at accomplishing) was to beat Show and Tell/Reanimator (and of course more scarcely played decks list Merfolk and High Tide). If your meta has any of these decks, it might be worth keeping 2 copies regardless of whether or not you agree to bring it in against Miracles. There is some overlap however as both Xantid Swarm and Pithing Needle invalidate Griselbrand and Sensei's Diving Top (to an extent). Do we need the full 4 copies of both? Perhaps Carpet of Flowers is better than Pithing Needle if Xantid Swarm already handling these issues? Xantid Swarm is easier for many decks to deal with than Pithing Needle though.
I'm unsure on these issues at the moment, but I'll be sticking with 2 Xantid Swarm and 2 Pithing Needle for the time being - I don't have any complaints regarding their effectiveness.
Aside from this, I like having the 2 Chain of Vapor, so if I were you I would indeed find room for the second as they're very versatile. Perhaps there's something else you could shave? If there's no Leyline of Sanctity in your meta, I would suggest shaving the Void Snare instead of the Chain of Vapor (to make the required space for your Shattering Spree).
I have a screenshot of a Facebook post from Ari Lax 2 years back were he breaks down this (specifically in relation to Stoneforge Mystic) - it could be out of date now, but I'll post it here in a day or two anyway (if I remember this time :p). I don't have graphs though and it would be nice to have the data for more fringe decks!
I hope you have found this helpful. Cheers!
Yes and it is horrible in a deck which evolves around Ad Nauseam. Grim is a dead flip if you hit it below 7 life. Even tutoring for AN with Grim is wacky because of the extra mana and lost life. It is a reasonable card in ANT is you give less of a fuck about AN but even there, needing to have 7 life for a PIF loop left isn't hot and the reason ANT has still not found a real solution for the desired Infernal 5-6.
Honestly, since blue decks started to cut Stifle, Wasteland and Pierce, all that doesn't pack multiple angles of attack like BUG, Esper, Deathblade or Miracles, became pretty managable no matter your build.
Why are you running Spree if you have the belcher mode for your local players (you know before turn 1 what they are playing) and Decays Postboard? Swarm and Needle target the same matchup more or less, so it's a personal choice and what you want the card exactly to do.
First question: Would you play Carpet mainboard? If not, do you want to dedicate several SB slots for modular mana which also require green mana to initiate? I don't. We are obviously not talking about the same idea in context of mana. Have you tested the setup to experience the benefits and limitations, or is this just a gut-reaction? I remember the same extreme reactions back when I suggested cutting Silence xD
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He was talking about the list I recommended in the updated Opening Post, where I do play Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard. Yes, I do want several green spells in my sideboard if they're the best spells at what they do. I'm running a pair of Gemstone Mine along with the searchable Bayou in order to be able to support these cards.
There's a huge difference between cutting Chrome Mox for additional lands and swapping Silence back to Duress. Extreme reactions are somewhat to be expected when you're suggesting an overhaul of the deck's core.
For me the message was "why should I bother with crappy CoT if I can fix mana issues with Carpet?" and he seems to miss that such suggested transition don't come without "a rats tail".
I care a lot about that secondary effects of changes like manacurve, color-balance, etc. and that's why I took the time and honest to explain changes/ideas, their weaknesses and required changes to play-routines, which include working towards floating mana among others for this particular idea. It drives me mad if I, despite all the explanation, see comments like "but it's worse if you cast AN with zero float!" which are not only obvious, because I mentioned the issue and work-arounds from the start, BUT reveal a certain lack of thought-flexibility, maybe because the deck spoiled it's pilots by it's Ad Nauseams (despite zero mana float) pretty much guaranteeing a win the same turn you casted it. I chopped that; I know what the result is; I communicated it. The same as for T1 Goblins or hellbent-problems. Maybe I should have picked another videogame reference for explaining the change as the "Triforce" was sticky for Probe/Therapy/EtW *laugh*
I don't feel we simply "swapped" Silence and Duress, as the "rats tail" (is that used in AE or BE the same way as in german?) was no more timewalking, no more blanking counterspells like Spell Snare or Stifle, no more outs to Leyline of Sanctity, etc. which I got flak for in Nov '13 despite me hinting on the benefits which I thought should make up for the losses.
Maybe this idea, which I begun to work at after Kai Thiele messaged me on FB about him looking for a storm deck "which can blow out your opponent early BUT ALSO can grind", is even more controverse than the removal of Silence and I admit, I wasn't prepared to fight so hard for people at least goldfishing with it (and do it with the required change of the routine), before the idea gets neglected, which created a balance between ANTs midgame manapower and TES' efficient Ad Nauseams & quick combos, which I think is the direction Kai was asking for (who hates EtW anyways) even if I think that the numbers sure need tweaking.
I recommend rewatching most of Bryants matches in video-list of the OP to get a feeling of how often games go to turn 3 and beyond vs. turn 1 goblins and the role of drawn Moxen.
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My guess to what "A rats tail" means is downside? My counterargument would be, even if that was his attitude it has merit. Why change the core of our deck, when we can fix your suggested issues with a sideboard slot? You're sacrificing a lot to gain very little in my opinion.
I put a lot of thought into my comments, concerns and deck decisions. Just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean either one of us is wrong, from where I'm standing you're views on what you want to accomplish are moving toward a slower deck that resembles ANT. I don't want that as it causes us to become something else, where you're going may end up being another hybrid of the two. In either case, if I made a change that drastic I wouldn't expect others to be so ecstatic about it.
Sure, they each have upsides and downsides. We made the switch more based on the fact that discard strategies were becoming incredibly popular in which Silence did nothing and the fact that Duress is better paired with Cabal Therapy. It was a swap, moving on.
Perhaps you're looking for a different deck? It's not our problem if Kai hates Empty, I still love it. If you're actively trying to merge the two decks, I think you're looking in the wrong place.
Sure, watch the one where Empty single handily beats Ben Friedman for me or how fast my match was against Todd Anderson or Reid Duke. There's also videos where the games go long and the deck prevails, look at my finals match against Ben Green. TES has late-game power too, while it may not be as strong as ANTs it's still there we happen to be much faster so our late game is less relevant.
@bryant cook, thanks for the update on your recent list. At my LGS there are a lot of bug delvers, you would bring in xantid swarm against them? you recommend other cards in sideboard for this matchup besides the ones you have ?
Not to be rude, but if you read the opening post you would've found your answer under "Tempo decks" where I specifically state not to side them in against BUG Delver. I wouldn't sideboard for that match-up as Carpet is worse due to the number of Bayou/Deathrite Shaman paired with Abrupt Decay.
Bryant, what are your thoughts on going up a duress and down a cabal and possibly moving it back to the board as a wish target?
I would only do that if you're not playing Empty in the main deck, the synergy between the two is incredible and often steals games. Therapy is also good in more match-ups, unlike Duress. Lastly, I'm likely not going to play a protection spell wish target in the near future, it's often a wasted slot.
hum i see, i didnīt saw that point, sorry about that ;) i hope to see you more on camera in scg events or other big events :D
I've been on TES for about a week. Forgive me if the answers to my questions are obvious.
I find myself wanting an additional storm engine when Ad Nauseam isn't possible. Does anyone remember where the removal of Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains occurred in the thread? I tried the 'Advanced Search' function but it doesn't seem to work too well. Has anyone tested Infernal Contract in the side board? I like that it can be cast off just Burning Wish + LED, and perhaps 4 cards is enough to turn around a losing game depending on what you already have in hand.
Carpet of Flowers, Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay have been all stars in the SB for me. I haven't found much use for Void Snare quite yet. In which matchups is it at its best? (only Leyline of Sanctity?)
If it's determined that Xantid Swarm isn't good against Miracles, then is it really worth playing? Wouldn't needles be better because they also stabilize our mana base against Wasteland decks?
I've been toying with Goblin War Strike and Telemin Performance. It's quite pleasing when I'm able to win off of those, even though they're likely "incorrect".
When trying to bait out counters with Burning Wish, I feel like there should be a "set up" spell we can grab in the case they let it resolve. I try to trade my tutors for their counters when I have multiples. If wish resolves, and I expect them to counter it, I'm not sure what I even want to grab. This makes me think that it might be nice to be able to grab either a Thoughtseize or Rite of Flame. When I'm flooded on tutors I try to use Infernal Tutor to copy my RoF so that I can have 3x RoF on my kill turn which is usually sufficient for PiF kills since the Infernal is already in the GY.
Is there a better way I should go about playing around multiple hard counters? I try to dig for discard but can't always find it, so I resort to "trading" with their spells. I suppose this is a scenario when Silence is preferable because it's more of a "must" counter, at least if they don't know what's in your hand: http://imgur.com/OKEBEtt
Past in Flames is your backup engine typically, since it's very resilient against discard. Contract seems bad because in a matchup where youre quickly losing life, you wouldnt want to cut your life in half against them anyway. Cruise was tested a while ago, but i dont know if anyone particularly liked it. I might consider IGG, just because Burn and Storm are really popular on MTGO, but I don't think its that good.
Snare is just a catch all, stops you from losing to, like, Teeg or Leyline or something odd like Marit Lage. It also has corner-case applications like getting a Batterskull off your back by bouncing the token so they have to return and show it in again. In weird scenarios it can also bounce an artifact and replay it, so between it, snare, and LED/Petal you can trade 3 mana for 3 storm if youre trying a natural spell chain.
Tutor copying Rituals is fine. I wouldnt side Rite out for the reason that opening multiples is important. If the primer's sb plans, you'll notice Ponder gets sided out as a singleton a lot. It's an ok Wish target when youre just using Wish as bait. I can think of a couple times I've wished for Ponders, I've had one strange game where I baited w/ a Wish, grabbed EtW, baited with a Tutor, ended up duping the EtW, and then storming out with both, it was odd. Generally, though, even without SB Thoughtseize or w/e, it's easy to get value from Wishes.
I wouldn't start trading until you're at 8 in hand, since making repeated probing trades to gain info/erode defenses stopped being good now that blue decks can just refill with Dig/Cruise. Against Stoneblade or Delver or w/e, if I can't go off fast, I just focus on hitting land drops, building up to 8 and then forcing though with multiple tools to break through. This is particularly good on the draw, and also because Wish increases storm count and makes Tendrils kills pretty viable.
EDIT: As an aside, if Stoneblade continues to increase in popularity, and techs that I see like Envelop and Counterspell become more prevalent, I may actually load up 5c TES...
Dim.Ret and IGG left the deck after Silence was cut as the cards are simply bad against any blue deck and not required against non-blue due to the fact that those decks cannot prevent EtW or AN anyways. You can find most on the topic around Dec. '13 inthis thread. Bryant toyed with Infernal Contract and I with Doomsday. Both cards were simply not good enough to win from a position which rendered AN and EtW useless. PIF was the only card which did and remained in the SB as our primary Backup engine. Trying to "turn around" a game with TES is doomed as you have to be the aggressor in each game you play. If you lose the Position in which your opponent can only react to your plays and he/she is suddenly in the drivers seat, you are going to lose anyways.
In many games in which your life total drops fast, you don't even need an engine but can work towards a natural spellchain instead
Void Snare is a catch-all for game 1's and for redundant bounce-effects game 2 and 3. Ergo you are never dead to unexpected hate like Leyline, game 1 Ruric Thar/Eidolon/Marit Lage/etc. You get the idea. As the OP highlights, Xantids are not for Miracles but for decks which are unable to remove it and overload on non-creature-counters like Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Stifle. Examples are Reanimator/SneakShow/12-Post/Meerfolk/etc. Boarding them against Miracles is gambling against their reduced removal game 2/3 and reasonable if your find the slots to board them in addition to your other hate. Both Needle and Xantids are valid options.
While Telemin or Bribery are reasonable options for local metas, War Strike is totally off. If you resolved EtW, your opponent has to be dead. Period. Opting for a Wish AFTER you already cast EtW is not only an unlikely scenario but also a pure win-more.
Casting Wishes without the intent to grab something from the Sideboard is a hilarious waste of time, cards and mana. It's like casting Ponder and having to clue what you are looking for in the first place and losing as a result of drawing cards you like, but not the cards you actually need. PIF is always nice to have as is EtW is you have the option to burst out a few Goblins with CT(s) in the graveyard. This is really not a topic at all
You want to Wish for RoF and then Wiah again for PIF? You want to remove cheap Rituals from a deck which wants to flip them to AN or have then in your owning hand for T1/2 Goblin bursts? This suggestion is not sound
Multiple hardcounters? Usually you can exhaust those with discard and PIF to flashback the discard and cantrips. Most problems also don't even occur if you are fast enough. Silence does not necessarily help if your opponent indeed has several castable hardcounters. You can only strip 1 counter like discard would unless the hardcounters you talk about are exactly the ones I mentioned before in terms of Xantid Swarm.
Edit:
I fear hatebears from their SB much more than additional counters. All those counters and especially slow ones like counterspell are a joke. It's your Bread and Butter to dismember passive opponents sitting behind counters. In fact, the whole Stoneblade-supertype was the reason I split up with the white Instant
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So one card I haven't seen discussed much is overmaster.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...iverseid=29868
I'm going to be trying is as my flex sideboard slot. I've often felt that I have to use wishes to bait counters, and if they don't bite, I'm not punishing them enough with whatever I wish for. This is a mini silence that can help you force through an infernal. You can also use the draw trigger plus LEDs for fun with brainstorm set-up.
I don't know for sure that it will be good, but I'm going to try it this week in testing. Anyone have experience with this card?
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First: read the card. It says the NEXT instant or sorcery. It's totally pointless if your Infernal/Wish can't be countered but the fetched AN/EtW can still be FoW'd or Flusterstormed. It costs also 1 mana ... the same amount a discard Spell costs to get rid of the counterspell you want to Dodge with Overmaster.
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It's actually pretty bad with Infernal Tutor as it requires you to have an LED (You're no longer hellbent). Also, you're forced to get Empty the Warrens as Ad Nauseam can be countered. I'd say it's pretty weak.
Good points. I guess a discard spell would be better. I was going through every rbu sorcery for potential wish targets thought I might have found a diamond in the rough
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The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill
The only hatebear of I've seen is Meddling Mage, which can't actually beat me if I side in Tendrils. Canonist detracts from their flurry of plays w/ Pyromancer, and black control is at an all time low due to Cruise. If this trend continues, and I have to looks at cards like Envelop and Hydroblast, then doesn't it make sense to be playing Silence? Not only that, but Storm has been 30% of the meta in the last 2 dailies I played...
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