As main deck goes i find this deck amazing (limited testing) have done a few games vs bug, rug and a MUD chalice deck.
What trubles me is boarding, for referance:
Md:
1 engineered explosives
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
2 sensei's devining top
2 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
3 counterspell
1 council of judgement
1 entreat the angels
4 jace the mindsculptor
3 supreme verdict
4 force of will
4 dig true time
3 volcanic island
3 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 arid mesa
3 island
2 plains
Sb:
3 clique
3 cb
1 wear//tear
2 reb
1 baneslayer
3 pyroclasm
2 rest in peace
When playing vs the bug deck i didnt bother to board anything. Not sure if its correct thought, but i felt 2 blast from the main was enough (his deck became mostly green/black after board Clique and Jace as the most important) and i didnt want to give him targets for his abrupt, so i dropped the Cliques. Maybe i could add the singel Wear//Tear for possible Pithing Needle to protect my Jace, sdt and EE. Weakest card preboard was my 2 Flusterstorms but keeped them as well because of discard and the possible counterwar over a Jace or TC from him. Best part was that i didnt notice any big difference postboard.
Vs the tradisional Canadian rug list i had alot more cards that could upgrade my deck and felt few cards was bad. Preboard i felt i played a totalt different game than him because of the DTT's, post board Jace gets alot worse, and i tried boarding in CB's RiP's and Pyroclasm's. My problem was takeing out cards but tried 4 DTT because of RiP and 2 Jace and 2 force. This is ofcourse very few games but all of a sudden i felt i lost my edge. RiP was not the total blow out i thought because he could stifle the trigger so cards in the gy stayed. So my hopefull plan with Pyroclasm as a sweeper even for Goyf didnt last long. CB is ofcourse a HOUSE, but atm i only play 2 sdt's. Tbh im not 100% sure what to do here, when im playing Miracles i board out all 3 Jaces, but here my only wincon left then is a singel Entreat.
Vs the MUD deck with chalice, atleast it was easy to take in and out cards 2 blasts and 2 Flusterstorms for 3 Clique and a Wear//Tear. If we cut them off metalworker and them playing more than one "big" spell a turn, we have lots of "timewalk's in our deck and win easy with Jace
Im not sure i want RiP in my 75, Maybe make room for 2 Grafdiggers Cage and 1 Surgical Extraction. Would still protect me vs Punishing Fire and most gy basen decks, while i can play my best spell DTT.
To bad there was no UR- Delver players at the shop to day.
Tested this list today against high tide, burg and grixis Delver and...it is really good! The only thing i didnt like was the Elspeth because she was too slow or not needed at all (except one game against Burg where Moat or sth else would have won also). I think you need sth in that slot which wins in the spot or is easier to cast.Originally Posted by klaus
I think this is the list I've settled on testing after GP NJ (Going to be playing Stoneblade for the GP since it's what I've been playing for the last couple months)
Sorceries (8)
4 Ponder
1 Pyroclasm
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Treasure Cruise
Instants (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
4 Counterspell
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time
Artifacts (1)
1 Engineered Explosives
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Sideboard (15)
1 Path to Exile
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Containment Priest
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
Yes, I feel the same about her tbh. She does shine in Control MUs though. Finding the right (combination of) finisher(s) is one of the main things this deck will have to determine. Ultimately the optimal choice is dictated by the meta, which is why Batterskull or BSA can be found in several lists, as combining a finisher with a lifelink effect is efficient. More often than not you will find your life total between 1 & 3 aka Bolt range so there has to be a way to DIGyourself out of that hole.
Scenario, you keep a hand with 2 fetchlands and atleast 1 cantrip. And you think opponent plays wasteland.
How do you fetch and plan your games as it could be critual to get to Supreme Verdict. But at the same time it turn off alot of flexebility if we only fetch basic.
Just intrested in what other think, since i might play to much around wasteland my self
Ideel i go
Island, Island, plains and what ever, but a Stp or Pyroblast thats need casting early can mess that up.
This is a rather complex decision tree, involving numerous aspects that make a critical difference as the early game progresses - depending on what your opponent is on, what early threats he casts, what cards (especially cantrips/land) you draw, etc.
Going for Island as step 1 should be a no-brainer, since getting your first land wasted hurts most usually. Taking it from there, it's hard to apply rules of thumb.
Sidenote: I tend to go for non-basic lands against Goblins and D&T, to prevent being cut off colors via Ports.
Last edited by klaus; 11-15-2014 at 12:47 PM.
Paradox is thats easyer to cut you off colours when you play safe (fetch basics).
Read an article that best answer to Wasteland was more duals. That said i feel i lose to Wasteland, atleast in this deck will i think it comes up more than in miracles as we need dobbel plains for Supreme rather than only plains for Terminus.
So maybe that conclude none basics are better here than in miracles
Edit: totally agree that basic Island first is a no brainer
Do you guys know of anyone who took a GoldDigger-style deck to GP NJ?
Would be nice to hear some findings.
The top 16 looks like GD would have fared nicely at the top tables:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...=3&city=Edison
I played the same list I've posted a few pages back and failed to make day 2 (dropped at 4-3). I'll have a more detailed report up tomorrow.
I think BBD's variant could pose quite a few issues as it has so many ways to win through one creature.
Played Alphastryk's list last Sunday at the Dutch Open Legacy Championships.
Cutting the two Containment Priest for two Surgical Extraction due to availability.
R1 0-2 Sneaky Show
G1: Keeping a decent 7, I Counterspell his eot (5) Dig Through Time. Obviously he threw it at me as bait. As I didn't knew what deck he was playing (I didn't see anything else but cantrips and closed fetches). Next turn he played his maindeck Through the Breach for Emrakul. I DTT for countermagic after he FoWs my FoW but find nothing.
G2: After some agressive sideboarding, I unfortunately had to mull to 5, finding no lands in previous hands. He turn 2-3 goes for it.
R2 1-0-1 Mono Red Burn (no Eidolon)
G1: He turn 1 Goblin Guides me, which drew me a nice couple of early game extra cards. Unfortunately his draws are much better than mine and he gets me before I can settle down on finding countermagic for each of his topdecks.
G2: Another turn 1 Goblin Guide gives me a few free draws. Fending off his early spells with countermagic, I put down Nyx-Fleece Ram and DTT into another one. Two of these sweethearts live long enough to gain some insane amouth of life. I slam a Jace, which goes ultimate for the win.
G3: Nyx-Fleece Ram is too sweet in this match. Early game countering and deploying these get me there. Jace starts fatesealing. Pyroclasm removes his Vexing Shusher so I can continue countering.
Unfortunately this very friendly player was very new at Legacy. His turns were taking a bit too long for me to end this game.
R3 0-2 Death & Taxes (Leonin Arbiter, Ghost Quarter)
G1: Early game double Wasteland and Aven Mindsensor screw my mana. I recover my manabase but can't turn the game in my favor. Eventually Moat an Jace were on the table. He Flickerwhisps my Moat and he swings in with two creatures.
G2: Pyroclasm trades nicely 2 for 1 and 3 for 1. He puts beats in with Spirit of the Lab with SoFI equipped. Slamming down Moat stalls the game but he finds another Wisp.
R4 0-2 BG Homebrew Junk (Sinkhole, Ports, Urborg + Spreading Algae)
G1: Somehow he gets there with an early Wasteland and a Sinkhole. Crop Rotation into two copies of Rishadan Port lock me out of the game.
G2: Opponent drops down Urborg and Spreading Algae on my basic Island as I was ready to nuke his manabase with Blood Moon. I Clique him eot, putting the Algae back in his hand and removing it. Clique downs him to 3 life but his topdeck Deathrite Shamans stay alive too long. I didn't find any lands to properly get back in the game.
R5 1-0-1 Maverick (with Kitchen Finks)
G1: This match is awesome. After a couble of turns, he goes for a Green Sun Zenith for X=2 to search for this Quasali Pridemage. I clasm going 3 for 1, taking Kitchen Finks and Noble Hiėrarch along with the Pridemage. Slammed Moat afterwards. Jace goes down a few turns later and rides it to ultimate. Although the game was very long, there was no point I felt out of control.
G2: His board was nuked, I try to sneak in a Baneslayer without counter backup to steal the game as he didn't see it game 1. He had a Plowshares in hand though. Jace goes down bouncing his drops. I cantrip and DTT for a 2nd Jace, put it down with a hand full of countermagic, but there wasn't enough time to seal the game.
R6 0-2 Goblins
G1: Cantripping, DTT, TC get me nothing but countermagic. Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives somehow doesn't feel like the answer here. The CMC of the little fellas was too much spread out to be effective.
G2: Another horrible match of finding no bananas. He revealed Stingscourger through his Ringleader. At some point I had to put it down to not lose the match. Clasm-ing his board, trading 3 for 1 and 2 for wasnt enough to get going.
First time I ever played the deck and a very poor result, I honestly enjoyed it a lot and felt insanely powerful.
Surgical Extraction definately has to be replaced by Containment Priest.
Nyx-Fleece Ram is way too awesome in this deck.
The DTT and cantrip engine is very sweet, though sometimes I failed in finding me the right card to get the game.
Moat is definately a truely powerful card in this deck.
It took me too long to stabilize the board and take it to my advantage. Maybe the deck should improve this, somehow.
Though my playstyle was very fast, I didn't feel I made some major errors. Opponents tend to think a lot on their own turns about how to beat this deck.
Definately will keep playing this and test against the DTB's.
Last edited by Spigore; 11-18-2014 at 04:40 AM. Reason: Grammarpolice & extra input
I had everything needed for the deck, sans 2 DTT, which I could easily trade for, so I sleeved up a version of this and gave it a spin at my local monday evening tournament. Here's the result (blog post):
http://goyfwars.wordpress.com/2014/1...al-tournament/
Currently playing:
Canadian Threshold Primer!
My blog about Legacy, limited, EDH and stuff!
For those of you running Moat, have you considered running two? Vs Elves, Goblins, Pyromancer.deck is golden. The thing is that never mind which win condition you are using, either you find Moat as soon as possible (as a lock piece) or after Supreme Verdict they will be able to rebuild a board position before you can kill them. Even Baneslayer, which theorycally can be game breaking vs swarm decks, is easily answered when they need to push the last damages (by block +sacrificing/bolting/bouncing the blocked creature, and all of the three decks mentioned above can do that really easily).
Edit. As a lock piece EE Ruins should be fine as well
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
I tested the list before jersey after reading Carsten and Durwoods article. I went 1-3-1 at a local. I had trouble against fast decks and finding action at times. I also found that if one of my delve spells was countered, other delve spells would get locked in my hand. Suffice to say, this wasn't my deck choice for Jersey.
I've definitely considered a second Moat. I would not cut Baneslayer though - you need enough ways to win.
Sorry for the delay, but here's my report from GP NJ:
Rd 1 - BYE
(1-0)
Rd 2 - ANT (With Burning Wish)
He kept a no-lander and cantripped a few times off Petals, while never managing to do much else in game 1 other than therapy me, so I actually thought he was TES after game one and brought in my Blue Blasts which turned out to be great against his Burning Wishes anyway.
(2-0, 2-0)
Rd 3 - Jund
His 2 maindeck Chains really slowed me down in game one, and I wasn't able to find Baneslayer before Punishing Fire killed me.
Game 2 he was stuck on only one colored source after I plowed his Deathrite, but I wasn't in a position to really punish him for it, and he eventually drew out of it.
(2-1, 2-2)
Rd 4 - UWR stoneblade
I win a long, grindy game 1 by finally finding Pyroblast for his Jace at 13 counters, then eventually ultimate my Jace. We start game 2 with about 12 minutes left and do not finish another game. When time is called, my opponent concedes.
(3-1, 4-2)
Rd 5 - Death & Taxes (green splash for Teeg)
I win game one pretty convincingly, never letting him get established. Game 2 he's able to establish Teeg + Karakas + Mom and I can never recover after drawing 3 Digs , Jace, and Verdict.
Game 3 I get Moat out with FoW x2, Counterspell and I'm feeling pretty good about things. He O-Rings, I Force. He O-Rings again, I Counterspell. I draw Brainstorm, fire it off, and miss on anything of relevance, playing a fetch. He untaps and plays his one Council's Judgment. Well then. Things go downhill from there.
(3-2, 5-4)
Rd 6 - UWR Stoneblade (again!)
I win a long game one, he wins a long game 2 (1 minute left in the round). I point out there is not time for another game, and a draw would put us both out. My opponent is fortunately willing to concede.
(4-2, 6-5)
RD 7 - UR Delver
Hey - here it is - the first delver deck I've seen all day! ... and I mulligan to 5 in both games :( I lose game 1 with Baneslayer in play but he has enough burn to kill me from 5 life. Ugh.
Dead. Dropped. (4-3, 6-7)
I felt like the deck was fine - and importantly, I don't think Miracles (my other default choice) would have done any better against when I faced.
I don't want to make any changes just yet, but I do want to try out a Pyromancer list at some point.
I wasn't advocating 2nd Moat in place of a Baneslayer, but a 2nd Moat in general.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Playing this list tomorrow in Richmond:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
I added the one Snapcaster to rebuy the spells that matter most in certain matchups: sometimes I wanted a second CJ or SV or Pyroblast, and this is kind of a cop-out answer to that. It makes you delve more "responsibly" sometimes but in the very late games you can Jace bounce him and have a good pick of spells to abuse. The mana base was also a painful consideration; I wanted 21 lands, including 10 fetch, basic Mountain, Academy Ruins, and Karakas. That left only 8 spots, so I had to trim the 3rd Tundra and Island. I hope it doesn't bite me in the ass at some point.
Sideboard is currently:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear/Tear
2 Pyroclasm
2 Containment Priest
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Back to Basics
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Baneslayer Angel
Subject to change between now and 9 AM. I have a sneaking suspicion Smelt is better than Wear/Tear. My brother pointed out the only 2 Enchantments that we care about that see play in any capacity are Counterbalance and Sulfuric Vortex. Against Counterbalance it's likely our Wear/Tear can just get countered and Pyroblast does the same thing as Tear, and I'm not boarding Wear/Tear against decks with Vortex anyway. Sneak Attack/Omniscience are corner cases but I have enough hate for them already. Also, not sure if I even need Surgical Extraction. No graveyard decks are doing well at all, and the ones that I can expect like Dredge and Reanimator fold to Containment Priest and countermagic. I might be better served with a white Leyline or something. Thoughts?
Wear/Tear is better when you have Counterbalance, since it counts as a 1 AND a 2. I wouldn't play Smelt. Unless you have byes somehow, you have to make it through the early rounds, where you can get paired against something random, like Enchantress or Leylines or a Helm/RIP deck. In a big tournament, I would always go with cards with greater utility. On Surgical Extraction, it never huts to have extra hate cards against Dredge and Reanimator (or to be able to Extract Show and Tells or something if you win an early counterwar). Reanimator, especially, can have very fast draws that punch through FOW, and not all lists play Show and Tell postboard.
Thing is, I have CJ for random enchantments anyway. I'm not exactly afraid of Enchantress, and if I don't have more countermagic in my deck than some random Helm/RiP deck post board with 13 counterspells then I should probably be playing a different deck, haha. The argument that more grace hate is always welcome is understood, especially with Snapcaster. Just always trying to make sure those slots get as much use as possible.
Smelt? Why would you ever cut a card that does two things, and play one that does just half of the job? You need disenchant effects. So I'd go with good ol' Disenchant or Wear Tear. And I'm not even advocating the fuse effect (it ''dodges'' counterbalance as the casting cost becomes 3, you just need opponent to have Sensei's in play so you have two legal targets, and they normally have just 3-5 cc3 costs). But overall utility Wear//Tear is just plain better imho. Needles, Chokes, Vials, Chains of Mephistopheles (people are maindecking them lately) Sulfuric Vortex (I think you should worry about Vortex more, as when it lands you basically loose, you can't race it, and people playing UR know this) Wear//Tear handles them all.
On a side note, has anyone thought of Thopter Foundry as a possible win con? It's synergistic with Moat, better than Baneslayer, and you basically need 1-2 Enlightened Tutor (it also finds Moat!) to set it- considering the 5 Delve spells and 10 cantrips you should be able find it easily.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
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