Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
I'd contend it's fetchlands, as what would brainstorm and duals be without all that shuffling.
Duals would remain awesome.
My point is I'd be content with a shockland-only legacy, I doubt the meta would change significantly. Whereas fetches are what makes or breaks decks.
I'd just play U/R all day.
Fetches are more powerful than duals, that much should be obvious. There's a reason no multicolor deck plays 0 fetch lands. Without fetches, you'd just have to play duals and shocks and Seachrome Coasts and shit.
And make wasteland and price ridiculous. Also a shockland only legacy would be horrid. Burn and UR would be ridiculous
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Part of legacy is a high power level, even signing up to play with design "mistakes." Banning duals or fetches would be asinine at best.
And banning duals and fetches would make it not Legacy, which was essentially envisioned as a pseudo-Vintage with no restricted cards but access to much of the power.
The wise thing to do would be to just take a serious look at which cards are head and heels above the power level of the format and ban those cards. Brainstorm fits the definition clearly. It's the best card in Legacy and almost nobody disputes that, which is another indicator that it's well above the power level of the format.
Are there any other cards that fuel broken strategies enough to see play in 70% of the winning lists at the end of long tournaments? I guess that depends on whether you think Force of Will would still be a 70% card also if Brainstorm was banned. If so then Force of Will should go also. I don't think any other blue card is going to rival those two in terms of penetration of the successful lists in the format.
It's possible that Treasure Cruise would in the absence of Brainstorm and Force of Will but probably unlikely. Same thing for Ponder.
Delver of Secrets is out of color, which in combination with the blue shell makes it very over-powered. It is not anything like a 70% card though and if you banned Brainstorm and possibly Force of Will Delver's penetration of the successful lists would definitely decline in the aftermath.
This isn't actually a hard thing to figure out at this point. All WotC needs to do is look at the successful lists over the last 3 years or so. What they'll see is what we all see on a regular basis: Brainstorm and Force of Will are in approximately 70% of the lists that sit at the top tables at the end of the day.
Think about it.
70% is 70%. It's kind of an indefensible number in a competition that has close to 30,000 cards available.
Delver is in the correct color just undercosted.
Well, had it been black and intimidate instead of flying, would've made a lot more sense as a "mad scientist" who sacrifice everything for power. But it had to be blue because reasons. Just like Snapcaster (which however is a lot more blue than red flavorfully but in game- terms should've totally been red because it use a red-slice of the pie, not blue.
Its about transformation, just like Polymorhp effects. Blue is also about science and experimenting, like all the blue zombies from innistrad are stiched togther corpses and animated not by magic really but with science.
I love it that we are all wanting to protect the duels and brainstorms, arguing to keep it, while very slowly the format is heading towards a cliff. After scg drops support, what would Legacy be? Yes, like Vintage, it will continue. Maybe even thrive a little. But, with the restrictions of reprints, it will always, only head towards "non-growth."
I would rather Legacy exist with drastic measures such as restricting duels or banning brainstorms or whatever it takes, bringing in new players, expanding the market, than to have it shrivel. Seriously, it is heading towards being just another nitch player base. Wouldn't you rather have wotc support it more?
But instead, we are all trying to protect the status quo.
Yes, I'm invested in Legacy staples. Yes, I'll lose money if they reprint, or drastically change the landscape.
I guess my point is, rather than arguing against one another, we should JOIN together for something to save Legacy, make it thrive, make it even more popular than Standard.
Let's start a poll, a pleading of our case to wotc. Or something.
Maybe, I'm just dreaming.
*stepping down from soap box*
I've already thought about this, thank you very much, and it's easily defensible. Brainstorm and Force of Will are only 2 playsets (8 cards) out of 60 in each deck, which means in truth they as a shell comprise about 13.33_% of each deck, which means they take up about 9.33_% of the total meta even though they are present in 70% of the lists.
Now take the very base of the Delver of Secrets shell, which commonly includes Ponder, Daze and Wasteland in addition to Delver, Force, and Brainstorm. That's 6 playsets (24 cards) out of 60 in each deck, which means the Delver shell makes up about 40% of each deck, which means if (IF) Delver decks just make up 40% of the meta, the shell takes up about 16% of the total meta.
Just to so I can actually put numbers behind this, let's use The Council, shall we?
http://www.tcdecks.net/mostplayedcar...s=11&anio=2014
http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...&fecha=2014-11
Out of 231 decks of at least 60 cards each (13860 cards total), 1693 of those cards are Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will. That's ~12.22% of the meta composed of the three most popular cards.
Then take the aforementioned Delver shell with Delver, Wasteland, and Daze in addition to those three cards. That's 2620 cards or ~18.90% of the meta with cards in the Delver shell.
And let's not get started on how a lot of those cards on the top 20 are present in UR Delver specifically.
The truth is there in the data provide: that despite Brainstorm having a high presence as a card, Delver-tempo has a high presence as an archetype. Just need to interpret the data correctly instead of taking it at face value.
1. As asinine as the Reserve list is, Wizards will never break it because they don't care about Legacy. So the "reprints" argument isn't worth talking about, we just have to accept $2k manabases.
2. SCG won't listen to Legacy players, hundreds of comments on the new Open series article were expressing dislike and hatred for this change and SCG's official response was "should've spent more money on Legacy, go fuck yourself." They're not changing (despite it again being an asinine decision) because Standard is more profitable. So there's no point in arguing that.
3. Our format is going to die eventually due to the business decisions of Wizards and SCG combined. So the only thing left to talk about IS maintaining the status quo and making sure Legacy is still competitive, decently balanced, and fun to play. If Brainstorm is not breaking any of those rules then the point is moot. It's like doctors knowing someone is dying and using resources trying to make them comfortable so they can spend their last few days in peace or something. We want to remember the format as the best competitive format of Magic, not some broken mess.
Yes, but the odds are that without Brainstorm and Force of Will we'd have dozens of new playable cards in the format, not "new" new cards, old ones that are perfectly good and even compare quite well to the strength of the format, they just can't stand up to Brainstorm and Force of Will.
Why is Counterspell never played as a set in Legacy despite being too overpowered for Modern? Because having to wait until turn 2 (turn 2! gasp!!!) is just not acceptable in a format in which whatever the opponent is trying to do to you on turn 2 is going to be backed up by one of the two most commonly played cards in Legacy in Force of Will. Remove Force of Will from the format and Counterspell's value goes back up some. It was never bad in the first place it just couldn't compete with Force of Will as *the* hard counter in the format.
Force of Will invalidates Counterspell as a hard counter except in a slow control list. It invalidates Spell Blast and Power Sink and all the one mana situational spells. It's presence as a 4-of in most successful lists at the top of the meta and it's synergy with Brainstorm makes many successful lists 52 card lists with 8 no-brainer adds.
Why is Preordain almost never played in Legacy? Because Brainstorm (and Ponder) are better and Brainstorm is broken as hell so why would you ever play Preordain over it? Why is Impulse never played in Legacy despite being the deepest dig you can get in an instant for 2 mana without delve? Because Brainstorm is broken... Why is Diabolic Vision never played in Legacy despite being the deepest dig you can get for 2 mana overall? Because Brainstorm is broken...
Brainstorm invalidates about a dozen very playable useful cards all by itself. As an instant draw 3 with it's other utility it's just much better than anything else at what it does. You can't justify playing anything else over it in that type of slot and so the format becomes 56 for the vast majority of successful lists and 52 cards for most of those lists as well.
Tarmogoyf doesn't do this. People don't *have* to play green for Tarmogoyf, they have a choice in the matter. Deathrite Shaman doesn't do this. Stoneforge Mystic doesn't do this. Grim Lavamancer didn't do this when he was a hot creature. Dark Confidant didn't do this. All of them were eminently splashable power cards but none of them forced the choice the way Brainstorm and Force of Will do.
Swords to Plowshares doesn't do this. Lightning Bolt doesn't do this. Only two cards do this in the entire Legacy meta - Force of Will and Brainstorm. They're the herder that drives everything else into the sheep pen, year after year.
People have the wrong perspective on what would happen if Brainstorm and Force of Will were banned. Everybody says "combo will run rampant! The meta will be ruined!" I have a different perspective born of playing in a meta a long time ago when 4 channel and 4 fireball were sitting in a lot of lists waiting for black lotus and moxes and land to create turn 1 wins. That perspective is "it just doesn't happen like that most of the time." Yeah, you lose some early games to combo, maybe 10% of them (maybe, not a lot more than that). But the hate that Force of Will and Brainstorm suppress right now will also be there.
Storm combo hates Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. It can't stand land destruction at all. Not many lands in those lists and when they lose one to a Sinkhole they fold like a wet noodle, particularly after the turn 1 Thoughtseize blew up their pretty hand. All the Stompy lists and the Dark Ritual lists are suppressed heavily by the blue shell. They can't set up their locks and blitzes reliably because all it takes is one forced spell to set them back and then what they're trying to do just isn't good enough against what the blue shell is trying to do.
If we lost Force of Will and Brainstorm the meta would go wide open again. The best lists in the end would still be blue-based, just like they were in the mid-90's but they wouldn't be the only choice anybody with half a brain made in a large competition. And they'd have lists they just hated out there that were just a bit less consistent than them, another factor making the meta choices more interesting again.
Force of Will is incredibly bad card.
Look, it's a counterspell. For either five mana or another card. A counterspell. In blue. One that hymns the caster 95 % of time.
If DCI bans it, they may ban Chimney Imp just as well.
I don't care how many people worldwide play Legacy. Heck, I don't care how many people play Magic at all. I play my one deck I own, in a lgs I visit, with people that go there after their job is over so that we have fun during four rounds of swiss. No amount of people (not) playing our format changes anything about my experience. I simply don't give a smallest frog about a randoms playing in Buenos Aires. Neither SCG grinders. Nor anyone else.
What I care about, though, is the nature of my format. So turn it into a ble shitfest like the last three years, or vivisect it like you advice, and I'm out. Without much pathos - no "I'm out, selling my stuff, ppl look up my ebay!" -, but I simply stop caring like I stopped caring about Duck Tales back in 1992.
So pardon me, but I won't join you in an effort to turn Legacy into Format:Awkward.
Obvious Storm players are obvious.Why is Counterspell never played as a set in Legacy despite being too overpowered for Modern? Because having to wait until turn 2 (turn 2! gasp!!!) is just not acceptable in a format in which whatever the opponent is trying to do to you on turn 2 is going to be backed up by one of the two most commonly played cards in Legacy in Force of Will. Remove Force of Will from the format and Counterspell's value goes back up some. It was never bad in the first place it just couldn't compete with Force of Will as *the* hard counter in the format.
If They don't listen to us, why are we arguing on a thread?
Force of Will eliminates entire archetypes by itself. It creates an incremental meta in which players are afraid to make big investments early because a multi-card investment that is forced at the end is game over.
Not when they're on the draw and I ritual out a Trinisphere they're not. Not when I Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach or Sinkhole they're not. Heavily black lists are suppressed dramatically by the blue shell. Turn 1 Thoughtseize that hits nothing of value due to Brainstorm is a deflater. Watching the blue shell recover position quickly via cantrips is another deflater. Watching the mix of power cards that the blue shell incorporates and finds with great celerity even in the face of disruption out-value the cards available in a disruption heavy scheme is another deflater. This is why mono-black is not a thing in Legacy, whereas mono-red, mono-white and mono-blue all have a place at the table. Even mono-green gets there in the form of elves.Obvious Storm players are obvious.
Ditch Brainstorm and Force of Will and mono-black will have a place at the table again. Black with small splashes will also show up. Combo can't stand lists in that general archetype.
FoW only suppress back decks which can't recover from blue mages hymning themselves because they're all in on a single card.
Iremember when I thought force of will was a broken card. Yeah.. I had never played a game of legacy before. Then I played a month or so and realized that often I didn't care about the card
Thanks for that, actually. That helps make sense of the scope of the 'issue'. I'd be grateful if you'd be willing to compare and constrast this to the banning of Mental Misstep for penetration in decks, if there's data that goes back that far..
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