[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Lemnear]

The only hatebear of I've seen is Meddling Mage, which can't actually beat me if I side in Tendrils. Canonist detracts from their flurry of plays w/ Pyromancer, and black control is at an all time low due to Cruise. If this trend continues, and I have to looks at cards like Envelop and Hydroblast, then doesn't it make sense to be playing Silence? Not only that, but Storm has been 30% of the meta in the last 2 dailies I played...

Forgot that people started mindlessly copying BBDs UWR Pyromancer build. I still had the classic Patriot in mind for that color combination and those decks ran Canonist + Meddling Mage in the SB like Deathblade does. Storm Mirrors are no reason for Silence unless you keep playing against idiots. This matchup is defined by delaying your opponents combo with stategic targeted discard and most ANT players know they can't race you anyways so they mull into discard to drag out the game and their Cabal Rituals take over which leaves the Silence plan pretty vulnerable as it presents the same laughable one-trick pony Mindbreak Trap is because it is revealed via Duress/Therapy/Probe

[MiracleMan]

Is there any collection of data to give approximate percentages for Match-Ups?

[Lemnear]

Is there any collection of data to give approximate percentages for Match-Ups?

No. I can't take any matchup-percentages serious anyways, which is clear if you look through most opening posts throughout this forum. The best you can get is an understanding of the problems which can occur in each matchup instead and estimate how this impacts your gameplan

[Asthereal]

Testing a newish idea right now: swapping all three Chrome Moxen for Simian Spirit Guides. Reason: SSG is MUCH better when you have it in your hand, though it's weaker post Ad Nauseam. Played about 20 games with this setup tonight. Findings thus far:

1. Do NOT go for Ad Nauseam without mana floating, we need preferably B. But with a mana floating after Ad Nauseam I have not killed myself yet. SSG costs a lot of life, but the mana helps me win, so it's not that bad.
2. The SSG in hand is very good. Especially against taxing counters, but generally it is just nice to have.
3. The fact that SSG doesn't make storm has yet to be an issue.
4. Infernal Tutor is marginally worse without LED since going hellbent is now slightly harder. Good thing I run one on side now.
5. The fact that SSG ONLY makes red mana has not yet been a problem, but I expect it will prove a challenge every now and then.

Edit: list for reference.

Cantrips+Business:
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam /21

Accelleration:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Simian Spirit Guide /19

Protection:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress /7

Lands:
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta /13

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past of Flames
1 Diminishing Returns.
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Void Snare
1 Duress.
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island /15

[Lemnear]

Testing a newish idea right now: swapping all three Chrome Moxen for Simian Spirit Guides. Reason: SSG is MUCH better when you have it in your hand, though it's weaker post Ad Nauseam. Played about 20 games with this setup tonight. Findings thus far:

1. Do NOT go for Ad Nauseam without mana floating, we need preferably B. But with a mana floating after Ad Nauseam I have not killed myself yet. SSG costs a lot of life, but the mana helps me win, so it's not that bad.
2. The SSG in hand is very good. Especially against taxing counters, but generally it is just nice to have.
3. The fact that SSG doesn't make storm has yet to be an issue.
4. Infernal Tutor is marginally worse without LED since going hellbent is now slightly harder. Good thing I run one on side now.
5. The fact that SSG ONLY makes red mana has not yet been a problem, but I expect it will prove a challenge every now and then.

Edit: list for reference.

Cantrips+Business:
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam /21

Accelleration:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Simian Spirit Guide /19

Protection:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress /7

Lands:
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta /13

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past of Flames
1 Diminishing Returns.
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Void Snare
1 Duress.
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island /15

Imo it's up for debate if the "requirement" for floated mana is any easier to achieve than with the Sol lands even if the card sure has clear advantages over the Mox in your starting grip and is sure better than the Sol Lands.

The Problem every time I tested two or more SSGs was the damage, if I have things like Probes, Fetchlands, opposing Bolts/Delvers to consider during my goldfishing. You want to get hands on Petals, Rituals, Rites and Diamonds paired with a tutor or Wish instead of flipping SSGs, EtW or cantrips and dealing yourself 3 damage on the way towards the prior set of cards via AN flips isn't helping (how much less cards do 3 damage equal via Ad Nauseam? 3-5 says my gut with this configuration). I even had to cut EtW from the Main for my flips with an estimated mana floated and my testing with SSG tells me that you deal yourself about 9 damage during the game before AN flipped the 5th card in an average goldfish game and I expect it to be very critical with all the Delvers and Bolts around.

[Asthereal]

Imo it's up for debate if the "requirement" for floated mana is any easier to achieve than with the Sol lands even if the card sure has clear advantages over the Mox in your starting grip and is sure better than the Sol Lands.

The Problem every time I tested two or more SSGs was the damage, if I have things like Probes, Fetchlands, opposing Bolts/Delvers to consider during my goldfishing. You want to get hands on Petals, Rituals, Rites and Diamonds paired with a tutor or Wish instead of flipping SSGs, EtW or cantrips and dealing yourself 3 damage on the way towards the prior set of cards via AN flips isn't helping (how much less cards do 3 damage equal via Ad Nauseam? 3-5 says my gut with this configuration). I even had to cut EtW from the Main for my flips with an estimated mana floated and my testing with SSG tells me that you deal yourself about 9 damage during the game before AN flipped the 5th card in an average goldfish game and I expect it to be very critical with all the Delvers and Bolts around.

It sure has its disadvantages, but I want to try it out.
Mox just sucks when you draw it. Two cards to make one mana is just bad.
I'm not sold on it yet, but so far it has been fine actually.

For the math: the OP list has an average CMC of ~0,95 I believe (not counting Ad Nauseam).
So every SSG flip "costs" 3,16 cards.
So Ad Nauseam now requires more to set up, to make fizzling as unlikely as possible.

[vercadium]

Just a quick post - I've now played a fair amount since making the switch from Tropical Island to Bayou and it has performed very well for me. I now believe it is superior to the Tropical Island; especially given that we board out Ponder so frequently when bringing in our green cards.

[Lemnear]

Just a quick post - I've now played a fair amount since making the switch from Tropical Island to Bayou and it has performed very well for me. I now believe it is superior to the Tropical Island; especially given that we board out Ponder so frequently when bringing in our green cards.

That's an excellent point, Adam. The T1 cantrip issue is indeed less of a topic if Ponders are the premier slots to board.

It sure has its disadvantages, but I want to try it out.
Mox just sucks when you draw it. Two cards to make one mana is just bad.
I'm not sold on it yet, but so far it has been fine actually.

For the math: the OP list has an average CMC of ~0,95 I believe (not counting Ad Nauseam).
So every SSG flip "costs" 3,16 cards.
So Ad Nauseam now requires more to set up, to make fizzling as unlikely as possible.

Testing is always fine. I've just been there and tried it too. The calculation for flipped cards also needs to take into consideration that you need to stop once you go below 4 life as your list Features 4 sudden-Death cards now, and comes on top of the estimated loss in cards via cmc you already calculated with 3,16. A third point to consider would be stopping to flip cards early so you can pass a turn if your flips are so bad that you can't win the same turn due to a lack of mana (say you flip 2 Tutors, 2 SSG, etc. but not enough Rituals to power up 6-8 mana). So, there are 3 factors that harm your ANs in the end.

Two cards to make a single mana is in fact bad pre-AN as you have to create 6+ mana for your T1/2 combo with your handcards (mulligans!). There is space for discussion if a 3cc red initial mana Source is better in an Ad Nauseam deck than colorless Sol Lands in terms of floating mana and damage off flips, if you are as willing as I am to put more work into AN setups.

[Asthereal]

Just a quick post - I've now played a fair amount since making the switch from Tropical Island to Bayou and it has performed very well for me. I now believe it is superior to the Tropical Island; especially given that we board out Ponder so frequently when bringing in our green cards.

I don't like Bayou, but it has the same problems as Tropical:
In a dual heavy mana base you need three lands to be able to cast all your cards.
From that point of view, casting cantrips to find more lands may be necessary.
And for casting cantrips, I need blue, hence my choice for Tropical.

At some point I suggested Taiga instead, which got burned to the ground.
Reason: it doesn't cast utility cards (Duress, Therapy). Which is true, of course.
The upside of it, is that with Sea and Taiga, we get to cast everything we have from two lands.
And the first land we fetch is Sea anyways, so it doesn't have to be that big of an issue.
But during testing I too often didn't really like Taiga, so I'm back at Tropical. Which is fine I think.

[Lemnear]

I don't like Bayou, but it has the same problems as Tropical:
In a dual heavy mana base you need three lands to be able to cast all your cards.
From that point of view, casting cantrips to find more lands may be necessary.
And for casting cantrips, I need blue, hence my choice for Tropical.

At some point I suggested Taiga instead, which got burned to the ground.
Reason: it doesn't cast utility cards (Duress, Therapy). Which is true, of course.
The upside of it, is that with Sea and Taiga, we get to cast everything we have from two lands.
And the first land we fetch is Sea anyways, so it doesn't have to be that big of an issue.
But during testing I too often didn't really like Taiga, so I'm back at Tropical. Which is fine I think.

The advantage of Taiga + U.Sea is casting Abrupt Decay which Volcanic + Bayou can't. The downside however is that the Taiga + U.Sea combination is unable to support a cantrip-into-disruption playline which I still consider more relevant for turn 3 Kills than the ability of cast Decay off two lands against matchups which are very slow anyways and you have plenty of time to drop 3+ lands.

[Asthereal]

The advantage of Taiga + U.Sea is casting Abrupt Decay which Volcanic + Bayou can't. The downside however is that the Taiga + U.Sea combination is unable to support a cantrip-into-disruption playline which I still consider more relevant for turn 3 Kills than the ability of cast Decay off two lands against matchups which are very slow anyways and you have plenty of time to drop 3+ lands.

You don't board Decays against hate bear decks?

But the reasons are valid. I only posted the Taiga thing to show the complete picture.
I don't run Taiga, because it doesn't help me set up from a bad situation. Tropical does.

[Lemnear]

You don't board Decays against hate bear decks?

But the reasons are valid. I only posted the Taiga thing to show the complete picture.
I don't run Taiga, because it doesn't help me set up from a bad situation. Tropical does.

I do not if I have at least 2 CoV in the board, otherwise I board them for games on the draw as I can't even use a single turn for setting up the Belcher Mode. I board out the Ponders as a result and sit on Fetches forever, with the exception of Wishing for Massacre against D&T.

[Asthereal]

I do not if I have at least 2 CoV in the board, otherwise I board them for games on the draw as I can't even use a single turn for setting up the Belcher Mode. I board out the Ponders as a result and sit on Fetches forever, with the exception of Wishing for Massacre against D&T.

Ok. I don't play Massacre, because there's not enough Death & Taxes and Maverick in the Netherlands to commit a slot to. Besides, it's still a fine matchup.

Testing is always fine. I've just been there and tried it too. The calculation for flipped cards also needs to take into consideration that you need to stop once you go below 4 life as your list Features 4 sudden-Death cards now, and comes on top of the estimated loss in cards via cmc you already calculated with 3,16. A third point to consider would be stopping to flip cards early so you can pass a turn if your flips are so bad that you can't win the same turn due to a lack of mana (say you flip 2 Tutors, 2 SSG, etc. but not enough Rituals to power up 6-8 mana). So, there are 3 factors that harm your ANs in the end.

Two cards to make a single mana is in fact bad pre-AN as you have to create 6+ mana for your T1/2 combo with your handcards (mulligans!). There is space for discussion if a 3cc red initial mana Source is better in an Ad Nauseam deck than colorless Sol Lands in terms of floating mana and damage off flips, if you are as willing as I am to put more work into AN setups.

Perhaps SSG asks for a slightly different playing approach.
Perhaps playing SSG is not optimal.
Perhaps a split between SSG and Mox is optimal.
I'm not sure yet, but I'll keep trying for a while.

Chrome Mox is by far our worst card, and I am willing to put up with a great deal to be able to ditch it.

[Lemnear]

Ok. I don't play Massacre, because there's not enough Death & Taxes and Maverick in the Netherlands to commit a slot to. Besides, it's still a fine matchup.

That's fine! As I ever say: Take from the thread, discussion and lists what offers value for you, your metagame and playstyle and ignore the rest. :)


NINJA-EDIT:

Chrome Mox is by far our worst card, and I am willing to put up with a great deal to be able to ditch it.

Same here. That's what the meddling is all about.

Perhaps SSG asks for a slightly different playing approach.

The most important observation; the core of any approach to TES without Moxen; the reason I was so annoyed to read "but AN with zero mana float are much worse!". You HAVE to change your play routine pre-AN if a resolved AN without mana float isn't a guaranteed win anymore and because you are used to flip all these 0cc IMS' you had in the deck before.

[Asthereal]

That's fine! As I ever say: Take from the thread, discussion and lists what offers value for you, your metagame and playstyle and ignore the rest. :)

True.

Edit: decided not to use this part for edits. Oh wait...

[Lemnear]

True.

I will reserve this spot in my post to edit in my reaction to your reaction to the edit of my last post.

We're back to NINJA EDIT WARS?

NINJA-EDIT:
added edit as reaction to your last edit in my last post

[Asthereal]

We're back to NINJA EDIT WARS?

I hope not. That's really confusing.


Surprise, still a ninja edit!!!

The most important observation; the core of any approach to TES without Moxen; the reason I was so annoyed to read "but AN with zero mana float are much worse!". You HAVE to change your play routine pre-AN if a resolved AN without mana float isn't a guaranteed win anymore and because you are used to flip all these 0cc IMS' you had in the deck before.

Exactly. It's like in ANT. It requires a slightly different setup.
That doesn't necessarily make it worse.
It is if you play the exact same way as before, but that's just not very smart.

TES used to play out differently in the past anyway.
We've adapted from Ill-Gotten Gains to Past in Flames, which requires a different setup.
The addition of Cabal Therapy is another example, because we can now go for Empty in situations where we couldn't before.
The deck is changing all the time, and our approach adapts to the new tech. Or at least it should.

[Bryant Cook]

My problem with these suggestions is that they slow the deck down, which I am not interested in doing. Waiting until you have mana to float and the removal of Empty from the main deck causes the deck to be slower. If we're slower, we might as well play multiple Cabal Rituals and Past in Flames.

[Lemnear]

My problem with these suggestions is that they slow the deck down, which I am not interested in doing. Waiting until you have mana to float and the removal of Empty from the main deck causes the deck to be slower. If we're slower, we might as well play multiple Cabal Rituals and Past in Flames.

Except that you still have double the business spells compared to ANT for quick combos via LED and can't be hated out/slowed down by graveyard hate, which is there I see the spot for this particular idea between ANT and Mox-TES

[Asthereal]

My problem with these suggestions is that they slow the deck down, which I am not interested in doing. Waiting until you have mana to float and the removal of Empty from the main deck causes the deck to be slower. If we're slower, we might as well play multiple Cabal Rituals and Past in Flames.

That depends. Coughing up an army of Goblin tokens is actually easier with SSG.
It's true that setting up Ad Nauseam is slightly harder with SSG over Mox.
So it kind of depends on what you want to do.

I will keep on testing this idea, because in the first round it wasn't as annoying as I feared it would be.