[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[wonderPreaux]

I like that, I've been thinking exactly the same -1 EtW - 1 CMox +2 Cabal Ritual. Seems good on paper, please share if you get any feedback from playing. Another option I considered is PiF instead of EtW, with some number of Cabal Rituals in the list.

As for sideboard, I think REB/Pyro is worth at least 1 slot. As for the discard slot, I like playing the 4th Duress. I also like Carpet, but haven't tested it yet. Is it good enough?

I don't think PiF quite works main deck, i think Lem mentioned once swapping it with AdNaus maindeck against Burn, but with Burning Wish exiling itself and having to find all my win cons, its awkward to say the least.

My original draft of this used 2 Pyroblasts and Grapeshot to keep ahead of Meddling Mage, and also have some use for natural storm chains, since Burning Wish doesn't require Hellbent. I could see 1 copy making it's way into the board. Carpet seems interesting, I just can't figure out how I'd have space for it.

[sawatarix]

What a coincidence, yesterday i had the same thought process: kick out the empty the warrens + chrome mox #3 in order to make room for cabal rituals.

Then i started to test against every single delver deck out there to see how we can grind them out with additional mana boost. (I think it's clear that i shouldn't test a superfast Deck like TES against Elves or Lands)

I have been sucessful so far by killing the opponent via tutor/wish chain or pifloop when ad nauseam was already dead.
It really works,finally i also kicked out rite of flame #4 for a cabal ritual #3 but i've no idea if its good.

[wonderPreaux]

What a coincidence, yesterday i had the same thought process: kick out the empty the warrens + chrome mox #3 in order to make room for cabal rituals.

Then i started to test against every single delver deck out there to see how we can grind them out with additional mana boost. (I think it's clear that i shouldn't test a superfast Deck like TES against Elves or Lands)

I have been sucessful so far by killing the opponent via tutor/wish chain or pifloop when ad nauseam was already dead.
It really works,finally i also kicked out rite of flame #4 for a cabal ritual #3 but i've no idea if its good.

I wouldn't go cutting Rite, it's important for getting double red for Wish -> PiF/EtW/Grapeshot

[Mastikor]

I don't think cutting RoF is ever a good idea since it automatically weakens the remaining ones. For 3rd Cabal, I'd consider cutting a land (although I like 13), maybe a Duress or even a Ponder. Even 61 cards may not be horrible, but I think 2 Cabals are enough. Note that we still have to keep the CMC as low as possible and imo that was the main thing behind the idea of droping the EtW.

[Lemnear]

I don't think cutting RoF is ever a good idea since it automatically weakens the remaining ones. For 3rd Cabal, I'd consider cutting a land (although I like 13), maybe a Duress or even a Ponder. Even 61 cards may not be horrible, but I think 2 Cabals are enough. Note that we still have to keep the CMC as low as possible and imo that was the main thing behind the idea of droping the EtW.

If you reduce the number of initial manasources post-AN, you have to make up for it by being able flipping more cards to Ad Nauseam. Not being forced to stop at 4 life is a huge difference as I already mentioned several times.

I'm glad we finally reached the point where people test without the EtW main with Max summarizing my points about the strategic removal of that spell outside of the cmc issue

Mind that if you play with 10+ Rituals, you can swap AN for PIF+ToA postboard against Burn and UR Delver and call it a day because you also run 7 Tutors and ergo Dodge the whole problem of Tutor shortage which occurs in ANT at times

Just one thing: consider to move to full Fetches and a second green dual in the SB to support 2-3 CR as Moxen + Gemstones are really not that good in combination with CRs


Edit:
Max, I doubt Sol Land vs. CR is really a matter of speed overall (arguing with the hatebear matchup) considering that Thres.hold rarely comes online before turn 3 anyways which was the timeframe I had in mind for the Sol land to be relevant in case of matching Rituals/Tutors (turn 2) and un-matched ones (turn 3).

I don't want to swap the numbers of CT and Duresses not only because of the boarding slots which was one point to step away from that idea but because I'm fine with dismembering defense over turns, drop EtW and use the flashbacks to blow out possible comebacks


Edit 2:
I think it's worth discussion how the 0cc of Sol Lands relate to the 2cc of CRs for AN (also with PIF in mind)

[Bryant Cook]

I put together the list suggested above (I'm still on two Gemstones - I think it's necessary, especially when I'm running seven green cards in my sideboard). I've goldfished about twenty games, so far I like it - the ability to go very low on Ad Nauseam has been nice, Tutor chaining is more reliable and PIF is a stronger option (The real gain over the SOL lands). We're a little slower on Infernal hands since making ETW tokens cost more than Ad Nauseam now, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off.

I think four Duress may be the way to go if Empty isn't in our Main Deck anymore as it's more reliable, which brings me to my next point. Lem, weren't you just saying a page ago how we shouldn't be using ETW past turn two? Now you're using it to justify more Cabal Therapy!

I really disagee on shaving any number of Rite of Flame as it's effect severely diminishes.

[Lemnear]

I put together the list suggested above (I'm still on two Gemstones - I think it's necessary, especially when I'm running seven green cards in my sideboard). I've goldfished about twenty games, so far I like it - the ability to go very low on Ad Nauseam has been nice, Tutor chaining is more reliable and PIF is a stronger option (The real gain over the SOL lands). We're a little slower on Infernal hands since making ETW tokens cost more than Ad Nauseam now, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off.

I think four Duress may be the way to go if Empty isn't in our Main Deck anymore as it's more reliable, which brings me to my next point. Lem, weren't you just saying a page ago how we shouldn't be using ETW past turn two? Now you're using it to justify more Cabal Therapy!

I really disagee on shaving any number of Rite of Flame as it's effect severely diminishes.

Yes, I'm not a big fan of going for EtW turn 3 or beyond. It is however an option to consider if you are running low on life/possible stormcount/cards at some point and if you used Therapies rather than Duresses to dismember your opponents defense to this point, you can use the flashback to ride the goblins to victory. I think it is important to keep this option available on top of the fact that Duress can't strip creatures.

[Bryant Cook]

Stream of thought: I'm not sure if I want/need Carpet of Flowers if we've added in Cabal Ritual. I may switch back to either Needles or Xantid + X.

Edit: This is what I've been goldfishing this morning:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

[wonderPreaux]

Mind that if you play with 10+ Rituals, you can swap AN for PIF+ToA postboard against Burn and UR Delver and call it a day because you also run 7 Tutors and ergo Dodge the whole problem of Tutor shortage which occurs in ANT at times

This is actually a pretty good point in favor of Cabal Ritual right now, if you play online there's loads of Burn and UR and Treasure Burn etc. Carpet isn't even good in 2/3 of those scenarios, and Carpet/Lands just can't be flashed back. Moreover, having more Tutors means you aren't as reliant on cantrips, so with everyone and their brother's maining/siding red blast effects you can ignore it some games and make them feel foolish.

Edit: Max, I doubt Sol Land vs. CR is really a matter of speed overall (arguing with the hatebear matchup) considering that Thres.hold rarely comes online before turn 3 anyways which was the timeframe I had in mind for the Sol land to be relevant in case of matching Rituals/Tutors (turn 2) and un-matched ones (turn 3).

I don't want to swap the numbers of CT and Duresses not only because of the boarding slots which was one point to step away from that idea but because I'm fine with dismembering defense over turns, drop EtW and use the flashbacks to blow out possible comebacks

When I mean speed vs lands, I'm mostly thinking how, if you have a fistful of rituals and you have an opening, you can slam them all, whereas you can always only play one land a turn. Regarding the CMC, I think that's a matter of expected value, Cabal Ritual isn't really a great card except pre-Ad Nauseam, but it is very useful for PiF/chaining when we're not even thinking of Ad Nauseam. I think we're in a meta where Ad Nauseam isn't as strong, so increasing the power of secondary/tertiary lines probably has a higher marginal yield. A lot of the matchups where Ad Nauseam is good, it's pretty much a goldfish, so the removal of EtW and it's replacement with Cabal Ritual is reasonable even then.

I put together the list suggested above (I'm still on two Gemstones - I think it's necessary, especially when I'm running seven green cards in my sideboard). I've goldfished about twenty games, so far I like it - the ability to go very low on Ad Nauseam has been nice, Tutor chaining is more reliable and PIF is a stronger option (The real gain over the SOL lands). We're a little slower on Infernal hands since making ETW tokens cost more than Ad Nauseam now, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off.

I don't know how correct my initial draft of 4 Gemstone was, I just liked the idea because my list had 3 Swarms and the ability to chain Swarm one turn into discard or cantrips the other turns was pretty appealing.

I think four Duress may be the way to go if Empty isn't in our Main Deck anymore as it's more reliable, which brings me to my next point. Lem, weren't you just saying a page ago how we shouldn't be using ETW past turn two? Now you're using it to justify more Cabal Therapy!

The only thing making me apprehensive about 4 Duress is how awkward it would feel against Elves having to side in 2 Abrupt Decays to fill slots after 2 Chain of Vapor. Has anyone considered siding in Pithing Needle against Elves? A lot of turn 2/3 combos from Elves rely a lot on t1 DRS/Quiron Ranger, Needling them could be a far smoother way of delaying them compared to Decay.

I really disagee on shaving any number of Rite of Flame as it's effect severely diminishes.

For anyone considering cutting a Rite, just remember the 4th Rite generates a net gain of +4 mana! That's better than Cabal Ritual and LED.

Stream of thought: I'm not sure if I want/need Carpet of Flowers if we've added in Cabal Ritual. I may switch back to either Needles or Xantid + X.

Edit: This is what I've been goldfishing this morning:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

I couldn't find room for Carpet, this looks rather solid, given the points discussed above. I'm a little peeved at the idea of bringing in Decays against Esperblade, but it's likely necessary to have those Decays and Needles given Miracles and the former's use against those trendy Chalice decks.

[That nice guy]

I play the deck with a strategic mixture of foils and non-foils, the reason I do this is so I can write down/make note of situations on flex slots and then review it after enough games. For example, I'll run something like 2 foil chrome mox but when I see the non-foil I always ask, "what should that have been". Here is what I've found:

1. Just wanted to mention that after turn 3/4 Empty the Warrens is the card I throw under chrome mox whenever I can, but it happens a lot. Make of that data what you will.

2. After 300+ games I've found that it's about even as to whether it should be cabal ritual. And yes, I factored in the value of PiF options. What I'm saying is, for every time it would have been better seeing cabal, there was also a game I would have lost when I absolutely had to Ad N without mana floating. I'm saying Ultimately, with my testing so far, it doesn't matter which you choose. I'd go with whatever fits your play-style, and I like the mox because I tend to either be very aggressive, or very conservative (cantripping till the last moment hiding moxen I don't want), with no in-between. I also think the meta calls for aggression, but when Esper dominates I will try the ritual.

3. I know it sounds bad, but the majority of the time when I see the non-foil mox it would be good as a chain of vapor. I could either
A. buy myself time by bouncing a threat EoT. It's also good to hit a Top Eot so that UW can't float a counter to protect it from duress.
B. I can build the natural storm. Good after using wish bait for Tendrils,
C. Post (and even sometimes pre) ad nausea I can deal with a annoying board piece (Ex. Eidolon, flipped delver, germ token, elf). If they want to use a counter on it to protect their piece, so be it. This is great when your enemy UW player rushes a Counter Balance onto the board without a top just to hope.
D. But my favorite part of the idea is that it opens up a SB slot.
E. In matches where you know you wont use it, and you wont use natural storm off it, you can throw it under a mox and cantrip while saving fetchlands to go the long route.

4. Back in the BUG meta I ran the third mox as an Island to cantrip-durdle until I was ready and protect my hand with BS. The fetchable option definitely outweighed when I got it or mox in my hand naturally. I don't think in today's meta this is the right call, but it's an option if you truley hate mox as much as this thread suggests.

Conclusion, Personally I just don't mind seeing 1 mox.

The only thing making me apprehensive about 4 Duress is how awkward it would feel against Elves having to side in 2 Abrupt Decays to fill slots after 2 Chain of Vapor. Has anyone considered siding in Pithing Needle against Elves? A lot of turn 2/3 combos from Elves rely a lot on t1 DRS/Quiron Ranger, Needling them could be a far smoother way of delaying them compared to Decay.

As the hugest pithing advocate, I had good experiences bringing them in, but only on the draw.

Interesting story: I was playing in a tournament less than a week ago and I kept a hand on the play with needle, 1 Probe, game 2 against UW control. His hand was CB, Top, Fow, BS, Flooded Strand, Pierce, Terminus. I was so happy! I played land needle and he choose to burn the Fow/BS just to save his only land. I didn't blow him out like I could have, but getting rid of that Fow was clutch. So yeah, I almost always bring needles in on the play.



So there is something I wanted to get some feedback from the community on. In the matches where I have tried to side in the Infernal I've found that Burning is just not so good. Any suggestions on sweet lines with burning? I find PiF is not reliable. So maybe that's another argument for cabal?

[laserstone]

Played my local with the new Rituals main, no mainboard ETW. Went 4-0, won a Wasteland.
M1 (Maverick): G1 Adnaus turn 1, win. G2 PiF kill - cabal ritual really shined.
M2 (UWR Delver): G1 Natural spellchain. G2 Past in flames Kill.
M3 (UR Delver): G1 natural chain. G2 Past in Flames kill.
M4 (MUD): G1 Turn 2 Ad Nauseam through a chalice on 1. Cabal ritual won me the game here since I got around chalice. G2: MUD does its thing. G3: Pass the turn Adnaus on turn 2, Past in Flames kill on turn 3.

Thoughts: There were definitely places where not having the mainboard ETW hurt, especially against UWR, but no 4-mana spells in the main means I can confidently Adnaus down to 1 or 2 without worrying about dying. Cutting EtW forces us to be more of a tendrils deck than a goblins deck, and that seems to me like where we want to be in this meta.
Regarding Cabal Ritual: Saved me in some clutch situations (e.g. Chalice on 1). CRit makes the sideboard Infernal really good, and enables PiF to a ridiculous level. In 10 locals with TES, I'd used PiF only once, and last night I PiFd for the win at least once every round. I personally really like it.

[wonderPreaux]

11. Just wanted to mention that after turn 3/4 Empty the Warrens is the card I throw under chrome mox whenever I can, but it happens a lot. Make of that data what you will.

Thats a pretty relatable sentiment, late game EtW just isn't that fun against Elves, Pyromancer, Top/Terminus, Batterskull etc.

2. After 300+ games I've found that it's about even as to whether it should be cabal ritual. And yes, I factored in the value of PiF options. What I'm saying is, for every time it would have been better seeing cabal, there was also a game I would have lost when I absolutely had to Ad N without mana floating. I'm saying Ultimately, with my testing so far, it doesn't matter which you choose. I'd go with whatever fits your play-style, and I like the mox because I tend to either be very aggressive, or very conservative (cantripping till the last moment hiding moxen I don't want), with no in-between. I also think the meta calls for aggression, but when Esper dominates I will try the ritual.

I don't really think Esper is really that good these days, but with a lot of the meta throwing Lightning Bolts around, it's likely worth the stronger Tutor chain/PiF lines.

3. I know it sounds bad, but the majority of the time when I see the non-foil mox it would be good as a chain of vapor. I could either
A. buy myself time by bouncing a threat EoT. It's also good to hit a Top Eot so that UW can't float a counter to protect it from duress.
B. I can build the natural storm. Good after using wish bait for Tendrils,
C. Post (and even sometimes pre) ad nausea I can deal with a annoying board piece (Ex. Eidolon, flipped delver, germ token, elf). If they want to use a counter on it to protect their piece, so be it. This is great when your enemy UW player rushes a Counter Balance onto the board without a top just to hope.
D. But my favorite part of the idea is that it opens up a SB slot.
E. In matches where you know you wont use it, and you wont use natural storm off it, you can throw it under a mox and cantrip while saving fetchlands to go the long route.

We do have Void Snare for hitting outs. The problem with freeing SB slots by maining sb cards is that there are matchups where Chain of Vapor just doesn't matter or shouldn't matter. The "throw it under a mox" argument is pretty sketchy given that youre saying "you can just mulligan when its not useful". i want as few mulligans, literal or effective, as possible, since this deck decays really quickly on mulligans, unless you happen to mull into LEDs or other high-power cards

So there is something I wanted to get some feedback from the community on. In the matches where I have tried to side in the Infernal I've found that Burning is just not so good. Any suggestions on sweet lines with burning? I find PiF is not reliable. So maybe that's another argument for cabal?

For games where you're siding Infernal in, its to combo faster, usually with EtW against hatebear decks like Burn/DnT, so the Wish line is simply for EtW. The other case is something like the storm mirror, where Wish finds PiF, and I suppose this is where you lose out not having SB discard, since that was typically the other option. There are cases where it makes sense to just go t1 EtW against ANT, i suppose if you were really desperate you could Void Snare + Duress/Therapy an LED or something, too.

Ultimately, with my testing so far, it doesn't matter which you choose. I'd go with whatever fits your play-style

I take issue with this statement in particular. "Play-style" just isn't good reasoning. I get that Legacy has a lot of pet-deck mentality and preference rationale, but you shouldn't have a card in your deck because it "seems ok for you". There are situations where, among Chrome Mox and Cabal Ritual, one is OBJECTIVELY better than the other, and a very small number of cases where theyre both equivalently good. If you take the likelihood of these various scenarios occurring and multiply them by their effective difference, you get the expected value of effectiveness for both cards, again, objective difference, not subjective. The odds that each EV is exactly the same is very, very, VERY unlikely and if one is even a fraction of a percent better, you should be playing that one, regardless of how you "feel" about it.

[Bryant Cook]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76818

TES took 10th (Mislabeled).

Whoever it is clearly follows the thread.

[Lemnear]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76818

TES took 10th (Mislabeled).

Whoever it is clearly follows the thread.

I glad about the 2 storm decks in T16 in general. May the user piloting the list say "hi" ;)

[oracL3]

Hi guys does anyone explain me why ant decks are performing better than tes deck at major tournament? I mean, according to the placement lists i ve noticed that there s always an ant deck instead of a tes one. I m pro tes but i really don't understand this difference in the results. Ty :-)

[Mastikor]

Hi guys does anyone explain me why ant decks are performing better than tes deck at major tournament? I mean, according to the placement lists i ve noticed that there s always an ant deck instead of a tes one. I m pro tes but i really don't understand this difference in the results. Ty :-)

I think it's just because ANT is much more popular and played than TES.

[Battle7]

Hello, I’m Daniel Battle, long-time lurker and first time poster.

I got 10th at the SCG open this weekend with a record of 7-2 (link in Bryant's post above). I also drew into the Top 32 of the last Legacy Open in Atlanta around two months ago with TES.

Results:
2-0 High Tide (Feline Longmore)
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Shardless BUG
0-2 Dredge
2-1 Omni-Tell
2-1 Reanimator
2-1 Tezzeret
2-0 Hypergensis
2-0 Infect
Final record: 7-2

Notes:
-I only killed with Empty once. I would also have won against Shardless with them but he ripped his MD Pulse G1. Empty was revealed many more times to Ad Nauseum then it was useful for casting, so I’m definitely looking into the 2 Cabal Ritual 2 Chrome Mox version.
-I drew 2 Chrome Mox a lot of times throughout the day, and it was awful. That’s another reason why going down to two Moxes would be great.
-Most games were won with Ad Nauseum, a couple were won with a natural spell chain, and no wins with Past in Flames.
-The loses to dredge were me keeping a slow hand g1 and continuously drawing lands G1 so I couldn't become hellbent, and dying off an Ad Nauseum G2.

Overall, I love the deck, and will probably try the Cabal version on MTGO over the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, there are not any Opens in the southeast for the first half of next year, so I don't know when I'll be able to play a live event again. :/

[Asthereal]

Hello, I’m Daniel Battle, long-time lurker and first time poster.

I got 10th at the SCG open this weekend with a record of 7-2 (link in Bryant's post above). I also drew into the Top 32 of the last Legacy Open in Atlanta around two months ago with TES.

Results:
2-0 High Tide (Feline Longmore)
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Shardless BUG
0-2 Dredge
2-1 Omni-Tell
2-1 Reanimator
2-1 Tezzeret
2-0 Hypergensis
2-0 Infect
Final record: 7-2

Notes:
-I only killed with Empty once. I would also have won against Shardless with them but he ripped his MD Pulse G1. Empty was revealed many more times to Ad Nauseum then it was useful for casting, so I’m definitely looking into the 2 Cabal Ritual 2 Chrome Mox version.
-I drew 2 Chrome Mox a lot of times throughout the day, and it was awful. That’s another reason why going down to two Moxes would be great.
-Most games were won with Ad Nauseum, a couple were won with a natural spell chain, and no wins with Past in Flames.
-The loses to dredge were me keeping a slow hand g1 and continuously drawing lands G1 so I couldn't become hellbent, and dying off an Ad Nauseum G2.

Overall, I love the deck, and will probably try the Cabal version on MTGO over the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, there are not any Opens in the southeast for the first half of next year, so I don't know when I'll be able to play a live event again. :/

Hi Daniel!
Welcome to the active part of The Source.
Nice of you to come say hi.

Sounds like your losses were rather unlucky. The list you ran should not kill itself with Ad Nauseam, and losing to the one-of topdeck speaks for itself. We've all been there I'm afraid. I have two questions, one TES-related and one not. So TES first: how did you like the mana base with 6x fetch, 2x Mine and the Bayou? Have you ever been annoyed with the Bayou and wished you ran it in the board (or that is was a Trop or so)?

And for the non-TES-related question: What kind of list was the Hypergenesis deck you played against in round 8, and what the hell was that doing so high up in the rankings? I got curious about that.

[Battle7]

Hi Daniel!
Welcome to the active part of The Source.
Nice of you to come say hi.

Sounds like your losses were rather unlucky. The list you ran should not kill itself with Ad Nauseam, and losing to the one-of topdeck speaks for itself. We've all been there I'm afraid. I have two questions, one TES-related and one not. So TES first: how did you like the mana base with 6x fetch, 2x Mine and the Bayou? Have you ever been annoyed with the Bayou and wished you ran it in the board (or that is was a Trop or so)?

And for the non-TES-related question: What kind of list was the Hypergenesis deck you played against in round 8, and what the hell was that doing so high up in the rankings? I got curious about that.

Thanks!

The manabase was great. I was happy with the Bayou all day, and it never really hurt. Being able to combo off the Bayou definitely made it feel better then a Tropical.

The Hypergenesis deck was playing some of the damage enchantments (Warstorm Surge, Wound Reflection), Gisela, Hellkite, Emrakul, Progenitus, and Temur Ascendency, along with 8 Spirit Guides. She just happened to draw the wrong half of the deck against me, though the deck seems fairly weak to discard. She said she had a lot of T1 kills, so it seems like she had some good matchups and was running above average. It was definitely a cool deck though!

[Mastikor]

Congrats on the finish. How were the Carpets in SB?