If you read a few pages back, Ringo and I made some pretty drastic changes for the GP: We both went heavier on the white mana with 3 Plateau and +1 Lotus Petal -1 SSG and ran 4 Kor Firewalkers in the board to fight burn and UR delver. Additionally, we ran MD and SB sudden shocks to take care of Swiftspear (it hits multiple problem creatures including Delver and Stoneforge). While our showing at the GP wasn't impressive, I don't think either of us dropped a game against UR Delver and I was able to win the burn match-up because of 2 Kor Firewalkers.Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Since the GP, he has dropped his count to 3 Firewalkers, which I think is just fine. Unfortunately, I haven't been playing much Legacy in the past few weeks so my list remains unchanged.
Maindeck blasts (of any type) are particularly frustrating, but nothing we cannot play through. Ringo has been testing non-blue alternate win conditions for Miracles since they are now playing Blue blasts that can hit Koth and/or Assemble the Legion. At first I wasn't sold on this, but I have since come around and would be willing to give it a shot.
Since last night there were questions on Kapn's stream, and since Charles just wrote about some changes, here's where I'm at right now for anyone's reference. I don't mean to spam my list, and I'm not saying that it's necessarily better than mono-red or Shortcake, but I am saying that I have had success with it against U/R Delver and in general in the sort of "Treasure Cruise" meta. For the logic and rationale behind the choices, you can check my post history and Cab's, we both posted about GP NJ a few pages back if the questions aren't answered there.
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Painter's Servant
2 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sudden Shock
4 Grindstone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Enlightened Tutor
The 20th land (probably a fetch land), the SSG or 4th Lotus Petal, 3rd Ensnaring Bridge, or the Koth can be the 4th Imperial Recruiter if you'd prefer. If you cut a Bridge MD, I highly encourage adding it the SB.
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Kor Firewalker (trying out a Crimson Acolyte to force through the combo and protect other pieces, will go back to 3 if this sucks)
SB: 1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist (2-1 split with Thalia, trying this out as well, would probably go back to 3 if this sucks)
SB: 1 Phyrexian Processor (Testing this against Miracles, it has been absurd. Does not come in against anything else I've run into though.)
SB: 1 Sudden Shock (This could probably be a 2nd Engineered Explosives)
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (Testing, see above)
SB: 1 Crimson Acolyte (Testing, see above)
Kapn brought up EDIT: Sphere of Law over Firewalkers and Acolyte, and I think that's a good idea, I just haven't tested it yet. I don't run as many Enlightened Tutors, however, and I'm not a big fan of the card. I included 1 to smooth out and diversify numbers in the SB, and because I wanted a 4th Bridge, 6th Blood moon effect, and the ability to combo a little bit faster sometimes, and couldn't decide which was most important. I also wanted to try out a Thalia SB over an Ethersworn Canonist, but still have quick access to Canonist. I like it a lot as a 1-of, but would need a pretty strong argument for another one to consider more, not just 1 card it makes more viable or whatever. Obviously, Shortcake has success running more E-Tutor, so if that's appealing, you could maybe cut Koth for 1, and adjust SB numbers accordingly.
One thing to note is that this SB makes the deck a lot more aggressive in turns of hate bears/aggroing decks out, and changes to Enchantments or Artifact equivalents of these creatures will slow your clock down. This build has a really insane post-board match up against Sneak and Show, and a number of other combo decks, as well as U/R Delver, as it can attack and block, and generally keep up with the board if the combo isn't a threat. Most players don't bring in Pyroclasm or the like against Painter, since it doesn't kill 1/3s, so I've yet to be burned by running creatures as a type over Artifacts and Enchantments - which is a type of hate brought in usually.
UWR Pyromancer, however, is not as easy as it used to be, as they now run basics and outgas you in the late game unless you sneak through their permission. An 8th blast in the board is something Kapn was looking at, and I'd consider it here as well.
Someone tell Jack not to play copyright music in his streams. Twitch blocked out like half his stream's audio from last night lol
So.. doing some theorycrafting after reviewing a bunch of lists, I've come up with this:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
3 plateau
19
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
16
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring bridge
11
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 enlightened tutor
10
Sideboard
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Sphere of Law
1 trinisphere
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 red elemental blast
My thoughts being that at the invitational I expect a little more burn and U/R delver then a pure legacy tournament. As they are cheap decks to put together and there's bound to be a decent amount of people that qualified through standard IQs (like me) and don't play as much legacy as most. So, considering 3 of our 'bad' matchups are burn, U/R delver (if they are smart and play more basics) and show n tell variants.. I hedged a bit in that direction overall.
Obviously, I've made the sideboard mostly a toolbox of silver bullets, with 3 enlightened tutors main, but I've always liked that style. Resolve something that a deck can beat and the rest doesn't matter (partially why I'm drawn to this deck, heh)
I only did 1 kor firewalker since it's a little harder to cast early on, so only finding it thru a tutor doesn't seem that much slower. But, also have the sphere of law which seems practically unbeatable for most burn decks.
Any glaring weaknesses stand out?
Damn, I'm stuck watching Joe Lossett play miracles against Brad Nelson's Ascendancy deck since Jack isn't streaming tonight. Hopefully he plays against joe so I can watch from the other pov :P
I don't think you want below 4 mountains. Also not sure what Jitte is for in the board. Other than that, it seems fine. You can definitely shave a bridge MD if you're running 3 enlightened tutor. I think you might have trouble casting Kor Firewalker with that few sources of white, also. But it doesn't seem far off the mark to me, just test the sideboard a lot.
Why not? Wasteland usage seems low at the moment, and everything ends up being a mountain half the time anyways once you get one red source. Have 12 lands to provide red on turn 1, plus 5 more in petal/SSG.
Also, I have one less white source (1 lotus petal) then your deck, which had 2 kor firewalkers in the side. How am I low on white sources if it's working in your list? I'm not aiming to cast it turn 2, generally have to tutor it up with recruiter first.
The jitte is just an all-around tool against decks that we often lock them out with a bridge or something but then have to go the beat down route. Or, aren't as weak to blood moon or can easily disrupt the normal combo kill. D&T being a big one. We can bridge lock them while still getting through for damage with the shrink+grow plan. Or, just kill practically every creature they play. Against Burn it can dominate creature combat and/or gain a bunch of life. Against pyromancer decks, also good obviously. It's sort of filling the same spot that firebolt/pyrokinesis/sudden shock does in other decks, while providing a few other benefits in different matchups.
It's not as narrow as the other cards, but I have enough silver bullets already. Wanted a card that could come into multiple matchups.
I am not sure if I understand you correctly. With 3 Kor firewalker in the SB, that improves your chances vs UR Delver significantly? As I see it, Kor can only be recruited which means turn 4 at the earliest unless you get it in your draw. Usually by turn 4-5, our life totals would be quite low. As such I cannot see how Kor will help much as you probably cannot attack with it as well unless you have some creatures in play which I doubt in the UR delver games I have been playing. I have not been able to test kor much but Sphere of Law seems to work much better as a bolt is only 1 point of damage and all the red creatures can attack but not do any damage. I am not disagreeing with your choices. But I would like to understand it better. Everytime I try to test Kor and I seem to meet anything but UR delver decks.
There seems to be a raise of BUR decks and many deciding to put Surgical Extractions in their sideboard. I met 3 different folks with different decks playing Extractions. Not fun when one of your win conditions is gone. Our smaller group of creatures now does not help. Daretti ultimate post surgical is not helpful as well when compared to Koth or Chandra.
Just wanted to share that the shuffler seems pretty strange today. One hand I had 4 painters with 2 grindstone and 1 tutor, another time I almost had the god hand. Painter/Grindstone plus a sol land, another land, 2 petals and 1 guide. this hand was followed by me drawing painter on turn 2, 3 and 4. Oh Painter 1 was thought seized, 2nd was bolted, third was decayed, 4th one finally survived!
He didn't specifically say firewalker was just for U/R, though it doesn't seem bad either. It's more for burn, as I don't see them really beating it barring a great draw while you draw poorly, or they have some way kill it.
But, against UR gaining 2-3 life can mean a whole other turn, which is potentially enough breathing room to combo them out or otherwise setup a stall/lock. You need to deal with the Delver somehow, but every other creature they run is red, so you brick wall those.
He said his overall version did better against UR, mostly due to having a better aggro plan available to side out the weaker cards against them. The creatures combined with disruption creates a board state they have to deal with. If they do, you may get a window to combo them out in the process.
I initially ran 4 firewalker at GP NJ, and have since gone to 3, and now testing 2 and an acolyte. It's a reasonable number to find one in opening hands, or with top in the first couple of turns. You can also recruit for it later. With REB, sudden shocks, and engineered explosives, along with bridge, you're not lacking in ways to stem the bleeding before firewalker comes down. It's not like you just roll over and die without him, it's just a very powerful card that shuts down a large part of their strategy.
I will try out sphere of law, but it's harder for my deck to find than firewalker, and sphere doesn't actually help kill the opponent, which firewalker often does.
@enzee
I like to fetch only basics if possible g1 to hide the white splash. Also, the deck is hungrier for red mana than it looks, and you can get annihilated by wasteland and top-locked or not want to fetch away your top 3 etc. I also run 2 more sources of white than you in the lotus petal, as well as an extra fetch, and I also run 20 lands instead of 19. It's just a matter of preference though. It is a marginal difference though.
I really think that if you're preparing for the tournament, that you settle on a list, probably Kapn's, and just practice that though, and you'll have a better idea about what works for you.
There a large number of games where blood moon just won't happen for you either, and 4 mountains feels better to me in those games. In fact, if I moved off of firewalker, more mountains would probably be the first MD change I would make, probably the 5th over a fetch, and probably the second SSG over a lotus petal.
We were talking about this the other night in Jack's stream but I wanted to bring it up here: Seeing as a lot of us live in the north-east, is anyone else planning on going to the Philly SCG Open in January? I know Ringo and I will be there.
If anyone is, let us know so we can meet up.
Sadly I live in the Midwest. I will be at the Open in Indianapolis at the end of January repping Painter! So if anyone in the midwest is playing Painter on this board we should meet up!
I think I will be heading to Indianapolis as well, as long as things pan out, with shortcake.
Also you can watch the jeskai ascendancy match kapn played from the other side on premium side of scg today.
I live in Illinois about a little more than an hour from Indy. So if all goes well, I should be playing Painter at the open as well. If my 4th Recruiter every decides to show up... T.T
Here is a Rough draft of a Painter mat I made. What does everyone think? I'd love some input.
It is..."busy" on the right side. REALLY busy. I would either move it to something banner-length or remove 1-2 of items all together.
Awesome idea though.
Id agree with Cab. Also Capitalize first letters of each word?
Excellent Suggestions! I'll change it up!
What is the recruiter holding? A black lotus? A strawberry shortcake or strawberry would have been funny.
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